New Rear Axle?

[nafe]

Hi People!
I have next to no knowledge when it comes to mechanics, so i hope i can get some advise if you dont mind too much.

I had my rear tyres on my vtr (2001) replaced due to general wear and tear, and was informed that my rear bushes were f+cked?!

I then spoke to several local garages who informed me i should buy a used axle from a scrapy's. Apparently its next to impossible just to replace the bushes?
The rear wheels do lean in towards the top of the wheel, but ive got no noises.

i called Shitroen and they were. well, useless.

Im apprehensive regarding buying a used axle due to the fact it too could have the same fault.

Id appreciate anyone's experience and advice.
Thanks in advance.
Nafe.

[Toad]

If it was just the bushes that were worn, then there wouldn't be any major issues, as they can be replaced quite simply. However, it sounds to me that your problem is with the bearings... If the bearings are shot, then the wheels will have play in them. You can check this by jacking the rear up, and trying to twist the wheels side to side. They shouldn't move at all. If they do move, then you're in trouble. If the axle is in good condition, then new bearings could fix the problem. However, if the axle is not in good condition, you will be looking at a much bigger issue. The most cost effective solution will be a new axle I'm afraid...

[Sean]

Can't say more than above really. A tip when buying a second hand axle - fit new bearings before you fit the axle to your car, saves a lot of hassle in the long run.

[nafe]

Oh.
The rear wheels both move in and out towards the car, if that makes sense?!
so it sounds like they are quite bad then. hmmm.
Would you know where to pik up a sound axle from, other than the obvious (ebay/breakers). Perhaps i could get a new aftermarket one? If there is such a thing.
Also could i get a pug 106/vts axle, seen some and they talk about the height of the springs 60-80mm, but am unsure what i need.
Thanks for the quick response toad.

[lyndon]

Afraid I don't think they do aftermarket ones mate, Best to goto a breakers, Get a decent one, and just refurbish it before you put it back on the car, Saves you lots in the long run as you know it's mechanically sound that way.

[Sean]

no springs on the rear mate, it's lowered by adjusting the torsion bars, also easier to do off the car if they are seized. If you have a local garage that you use regularly then ask them to source you one or find someone who is breaking a whole saxo. Another option is find-a-part (search google). You're looking to pay around 150ish for one. You can fit a vts axle. but it's the same as a vtr one so be aware it isnt an upgrade from a vtr one.

[Toad]

You never know, new bearings might fix the problem. But from what you describe, the current bearings are DEFINATELY shot to pieces. You really need to take it somewhere that doesn't mind doing the bearing replacement, and they can then advise (after taking the trailling arms off) whether or not new bearings will solve the problem.

Alternatively, you can pick up second-hand axles off of Ebay for around £150, but there's no way of knowing that they are tip top...

[nafe]

I wouldnt have the first idea on how to refurbish one, but ill cross that bridge when i get there.
Sean said 'fit new bearings before you fit the axle to your car' Arent the bearings integral to the axle? Also does anyone have any tips on how to tell a good axle.
Theres some on fleabay but they all look like rusty bars! Probably better than mine, granted but dont look good!

Thanks again for the advise!

[Toad]

You can't tell just from a pic... You would have to inspect it, remove the arms, and check for damage to the actual axle itself.

What's confusing about Sean's comment? He's saying basically... Don't fit the whole axle to the car, then have the bearings changed. Rather, change the bearings while the axle is off the car.

[Lozza_vtr]

I think jpsaxo could even refurbish your rear axle.

[nafe]

Dont want to labour a point, but when i get a new (to me) axle i should change the bearings?
Also when i spoke to citroen reg price for new axle , i was asked if i need the subframe.
My understanding is the bushes and now thanks to you guys the bearings, are both shot, but surely the sub frame just allows the axle to be attached to the chasis?
Are the bushes and bearings on the same same beam?
Sorry to ask what must seem like dumb questions but i do appreciate your help.
Thanks again.Nafe.

[nafe]

Well id certainly rather spend the money on refurbing it than buying potentailly another damaged one.
Plus it sound easier.
Could i email 'jpsaxo'?

[Sean]

If your axle is completely shot then fitting new bearings won't sort it as they won't sit properly, it depends how far gone your axle is. To answer your question, that's what I said mate - buy a second hand axle, then buy new bearings (abour 15-20 quid each from citroen) and fit the brand new bearings to your second hand axle.

[Lozza_vtr]

Yeah search for him under the members list and send him a PM. :y:

[Toad]

Here, click on this link to see a nice and simple pic of the rear axle:

http://www.saxperience.com/forum/showthread.php?t=108157&highlight=torsion+guide

The middle parts on the axle are what hold it to the chassis, and these will have bushes. The outter parts are the trailling arms, and these are where the bearings are also held, at the ends of the axle... If the axle is badly damaged, even replacing the bearings won't stop the fact that the arms could be attached, yet sit all wrong. Does that help mate?

[Lozza_vtr]

Yeah but if he gets the rear axle refurbed, he will be getting new axle stub pins along with new bearings too.

[ellwise69]

I had to change my rear axle because of excessive play, failed its MOT. No one would change the bushes, as said before, near impossible. :S. 175 spoons, right joke.

[maynard]

You never know, new bearings might fix the problem. But from what you describe, the current bearings are DEFINATELY shot to pieces. You really need to take it somewhere that doesn't mind doing the bearing replacement, and they can then advise (after taking the trailling arms off) whether or not new bearings will solve the problem.

Alternatively, you can pick up second-hand axles off of Ebay for around £150, but there's no way of knowing that they are tip top...


when you say bearings, do you mean the wheel bearings? if they go that doesnt mean a new axle does it?

[willsy]

Ta Dah..This diagram should help

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v260/Willsy86/axle123.jpg

01
5148 77
SUSP CROSSMEMBR
£370.42

02
5150 51
TORSION BAR
LEFT
DIAM 19
£72.49

5150 52
RIGHT
DIAM 19
£72.49

03
5170 85
R/ANTI-ROLL BAR
DIAM 22
£62.20

04
5131 63
FLEXIB MOUNTING
£11.16

05
5153 21
CROSSMEMB SCREW
£4.00

06
5178 50
01 BAR LEVER
LEFT
30 DTS
£21.08

5178 51
01 RIGHT
32 DTS
£17.84

07
5131 64
FLEXIBLE JOINT
INT
£11.39

08
5132 56
FLEXIBLE JOINT
EXT
£11.39

09
5133 22
SUSP ARM SEAL
£6.10

10
5174 07
SUSP ARM SEAL
£4.03

11
5179 14
PLUG TOWBALL
£0.33

12
5153 20
CAPSCREW
£0.51

13
5153 19
RETAINER
£1.16

14
5154 11
SEALING RING
£1.14

70
6922 C2
SELF-TAP SCREWS
£1.40

71
5144 14
WHL HUB WASHER
£1.45

72
5144 15
WHL HUB WASHER
£2.07

73
6936 96
SELF LOCKG NUT
£1.77


This is all the part numbers from a VTS rear axle, everything is the same though except the Anti Roll Bar on your VTR one.

First number obviously relates to the number shown on the diagram.
2nd number is the part number
Then third is the part description and finally the price is inclusive of VAT

So its big money to replace the axle itself at £370

[maynard]

oh nice price! so if the rear wheel bearings go does that mean you need a new axle??

[willsy]

Not necessarily, i think it depends largely on how soon you catch the problem

Its not the bearings being shot thats the problem, its the effect of them being buggered that is.

If the bearing dies, commonly through lack of lubrication (which can be caused by a knackered seal behind the ARB plate- water leak washes away the grease) then without the lubrication the bearing will grind away on your axle pins (where the trailing arm slides onto)

This is a pic of what one of the pins will look like if the bearing has 'chewed' away your pins

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v260/Willsy86/pin1.jpg

So if you havn't diagnosed the problem soon enough then no matter how many bearings you change theyll soon get destroyed again due to the uneven rough surface that is now evident on the pins.

They should look like this...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v260/Willsy86/pin2.jpg


So if they have gotten to the bad stage then you have 3 options:

1. Buy a new axle for £370 and gradually build it up with new bearings etc- costly but you know itll be spot on after

2. Replace with a 2nd hand beam, check this for any wobble first if you can aswel. With this kind of thing though you really dont know what you're getting.

3. As mentioned before jpsaxo and his dad refurb axle's in their spare time.
The above pin in the pic is one specially made as a replacement- citroen dont make these as seperate parts which is why you have to pay for the whole lot.

As they get the pins made up the old ones are removed and the new ones pressed in.

Send him a PM about prices :y:

[maynard]

cheers willsy am going to get my usual mechanic and also my other local one to check it over and we'll see where we go from there! repped mate :)

[williamsvts]

i very much doubt a normal garage will be able to replace the stub pin. it took me 60ton to press mine out and back in and theres not many garages have a press that size.