MA Gearbox Ratios

[Joesnow]

VTR Rev limit - 6250rpm

VTS rev limit - 7250rpm

Cammed VTS rev limit - 7800rpm

To stop any further arguments regarding 60mph in 2nd gear I'll start with VTR limit & VTR tyres (185/55 R14). The rest will be with VTS tyres (195/45 R15)



185/55 R14 tyres with 6250rpm rev limit

http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t189/Joesnowbo/VTR6250.jpg

195/45 R15 tyres with 6250rpm rev limit

http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t189/Joesnowbo/VTS6250.jpg

195/45 R15 tyres with 7250rpm rev limit

http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t189/Joesnowbo/VTS7250.jpg

195/45 R15 tyres with 7800rpm rev limit

http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t189/Joesnowbo/VTS7800.jpg


These are all the ratios I know of. They should all be correct, if not please let me know and I'll correct it.

Also let me know of any other ratios or if you want any other rev limits, final drives or tyres...

If anyone wants the spreadsheet to play around with final drives etc just PM me your e-mail...

[Luket-VTR]

so does this mean the vtr with a standard gearbox has a higher top speed (141.7) than a vts standard (122.3)?

[snottybadger]

nope, thats if the VTS only pulled the same revs as a VTR.

[Marcos]

its kinda confusin as you cant get 125 out of a 1.1 but it says you can get 60 in 2nd in a vtr

[jamie_k]

thats max possible speed from the gearbox not the cars top speed

[Sparco_Tom]

thats a good set of info there all seems correct. good job matey

[-Richard-]

can anyone tell me my vtr what top sort of speed would i get if i fitted a vts gearbox

[Jimmy-Boy]

i would have thought the same as a standard vts. but check parkers for the standard vts top speed as i do not know.

[brianS]

how can it be the same top speed as a vts ?

[Jimmy-Boy]

because ratios would be the same surely?

[jamie_k]

if you fitted a VTS gearbox to your VTR your top speed wouldnt change at all

[Jimmy-Boy]

well, there you are :P

btw your advatar is trippy.

[Waz]

usefull info, but confusing. Where could i get a quaife close ratio box for a standard vts from? Or would i have to have my box rebuilt?

[matt-88]

Well i must have a gearbox from another car make as none of them stats are the same as mine. ??

02 vts
1st-40
2nd-70
3rd-100
4th-125
5th-135

im not sure what is up with my revs either because i can get nearly all the way round to max in the red bar.?? pretty sure im not cammed thou.:wacko:

[bullit]

usefull info, but confusing. Where could i get a quaife close ratio box for a standard vts from? Or would i have to have my box rebuilt?

pm axracing

your talking money and you need it to match the power you intend to run.

so its not a case of banging one on. all set up with a good engine will cost an arm.

you could just have a xsi box, or xsi final drive in vts box with a diff built. that will still be £1200 plus.

[Yates]

xsi final drive in vts box with a diff built. that will still be £1200 plus.

:panic::panic:i need mine!

[lavo-vts]

spot on there joe. at 7500 rpm i hit just over 70mph in second you are a god

[Daffron]

Maybe sticky? Sure this will be usefull for people and answer alot of gearbox q's

[Quick]

Maybe sticky? Sure this will be usefull for people and answer alot of gearbox q's


It is - its in the FAQs at the top!

[Reilly]

I need a new gearbox for my VTR, and what gearbox off peugeot etc will match mine, and what box would u recomend?? cheers.

[snottybadger]

how can it be the same top speed as a vts ?

because ratios would be the same surely?

But a VTS revs higher than a VTR :wink:

[Jackman]

I need a new gearbox for my VTR, and what gearbox off peugeot etc will match mine, and what box would u recomend?? cheers.

1.4 106 XSi Gearbox or S2 106 Rallye.

[Reilly]

why a 1.4?? cheers for those 2 aswell, didnt kno about them being able to fit :y:

[Jackman]

The 1.4 is a closer ratio than a 1.6

Pretty sure the 1.6 XSi is the same as a S2 Rallye box.

[Reilly]

oki doki pal. i will bare them in mind defo!:y:

[WOBJ]

So for a driver wishing to have more relaxed motorway cruising in his VTS either a diesel or VTR gearbox is the better option, as only the 2nd gear has marginal variations between them, they'd both be the same to drive with, but with a drop from 4365rpm(VTS gearbox) to 3765rpm(diesel or VTR gearbox) @85mph(600rpm reduction), if wishing to overtake by dropping down to 4th the engine revs would only be down from 5390rpm(VTS gearbox) to 5038rpm(diesel or VTR gearbox) which should still give good acceleration.
As you probably guessed i'm trying to make higher speed cruising a bit more relaxed in my VTS but still retaining as much of the acceleration as possible in the lower gears, plus my VTS gearbox is fecked!, crunching when i go 5th to 3rd, and baulks going into 2nd and 3rd, which changes to a crunch if done quickly.
My car has done 82000 so new clutch due soon anyway, i'm looking to change gearboxes too, just need someone to say YEP it'll fit and still drive good!

[Toad]

YEP, it'll fit, but it will drive shit. Don't put a VTR box in your VTS for God's sake.

[Toad]

And for the last time... VTS, 106 GTI, S1 Rallye, S2 Rallye, 1.6XSI, all have the same gear ratios, hence neither is shorter or taller than the other. They have different final drives, that's what stands them all apart. The VTR box has different ratios to all of the above, so be bare this in mind.

[Steve]

goooo toad!

[Toad]

goooo toad!

You want some too do ya? :boxing:


Hehe ;)

[Steve]

You want some too do ya? :boxing:


Hehe ;)

bring it biatch! :afro:


:zainy:

[betty02]

I did 300mph in my 1.1 in 1st...proove me wrong?


iJoke obbbbviously, good thread tbh

[WOBJ]

I'll prove you right! Give me a few days with the calculations, i'll see what i can do :o)

[Steve]

I'll prove you right! Give me a few days with the calculations, i'll see what i can do :o)

prove what right?

[glos-vts-chris]

YEP, it'll fit, but it will drive shit. Don't put a VTR box in your VTS for God's sake.

what about putting a 1.1 saxo gearbox in a vts??? obv it wont match top end, but how much quicker will it make it from the lights :P and how long is it likely to last, as im contemplating putting a 1.1 box in my vts...

[chriswoodward]

you then cant use vts driveshaft which are sports shafts so the loss in rpm between gears would be a bitch and also you would need a new box every couple of months so not worth it imo

[Phsyco_Paff]

quickshift?

[Mochachino]

what about putting a 1.1 saxo gearbox in a vts??? obv it wont match top end, but how much quicker will it make it from the lights :P and how long is it likely to last, as im contemplating putting a 1.1 box in my vts...

Absolutley pointless pusting a 1.1 box in a vts when theyres literally o.8mph difference, if you want a better box get s1/s2 rallye or XSI box.

[ax90vtr]

Hi i have some tyres sizes here and if you could work out my top speed in 1st 2nd and 3rd gears only that would be great. Standard saxo vtr eng and box tyre sizes 185/65/14 195/60/14

[Junaid]

so a saxo 1.6 vtr will hit 141mph in 5th gear at 6250RPM?

[Ryan]

so a saxo 1.6 vtr will hit 141mph in 5th gear at 6250RPM?

if it can overcome drag ;)

[Junaid]

if it can overcome drag ;)

hopefully :P
heard from some people on saxp they manged to get it to 130
im sure thats possible

[Sparco_Tom]

pfffttt hahaha yer right

[JRC1]

hopefully :P
heard from some people on saxp they manged to get it to 130
im sure thats possible

You're not talking about a standard VTR doing 130mph are you without any mods?

[Sparco_Tom]

judging by all his other posts. yup

[JRC1]

There's me thinking a VTS is quicker than a VTR and according to Parkers VTS top speed is 127mph.

[Ryan]

judging by all his other posts. yup

i loled.

[raunchz]

what a joke tbh

[Sparco_Tom]

I think some people need to read a few thread before opening their mouths

[col101]

Hi i have some tyres sizes here and if you could work out my top speed in 1st 2nd and 3rd gears only that would be great. Standard saxo vtr eng and box tyre sizes 185/65/14 195/60/14

The rolling radius is the same on these 2 tyre sizes, so theoretical speeds will be the same.

so a saxo 1.6 vtr will hit 141mph in 5th gear at 6250RPM?

As previously mentioned in this thread this is the theoretical top speed that the gearbox is capable of generating, not the top speed the engine and gearbox is capable of doing.

[Martini_Racing]

I have been reading all the threads about power improvements and I have conducted a lot of research about how to go about this, which all seems to cost (suprise suprise) a fair amount of wedge. However one area which i thought I could ask you guys is about gear ratios.

I am currently running a saxo vts which is a MSA log booked rally car. pic in thread below...

http://www.mandh-photography.co.uk/events/Bentwater2010/bent10-546.htm

this was my first event in the car and although the handling feels positive (Gaz gold set up on 190lbs springs) on the fast straight sections I lost massive amounts of time. My co-driver at the event stated that I should look at putting a close ratio box on the vehicle as it was bogging out in 4th and 5th, he stated that the performance gains by doing this would be cost effective solution to start with rather than going down the cam ecu port an polish route. First question is he correct?

2nd up I have seen a close ratio box from Quiafe which is around £1200. Does anybody know whether a 106 rallye standard box has closer ratios and would this fit?

Once again I am aware of all the power gain forums and I know I can do as much as like but it all depends on how I peddle it, but once it's flat to the floor there is bugger all else I can do. Any sensible advice would be awesome.

cheers

[raunchz]

what sort of speed do you think you'll want to top out at?

You got a 16v engine? What is the rev limit?

A 16v engine with a 7800 rev limit will top out at 130 with an S1 rallye box (4.54 final drive) - surely this would be more than enough for you? IT'd cost a lot less than a quaife box! You know the ratios of the quaife box and the FD ratio?

[Ryan]

The quaife gearset the gears are spaced alot closer together.

The rallye gearbox isnt a close ratio gearbox, its the same in gear ratios as a vts box but with a different final drive. So if you run a very peaky engine its no different.

[RAFkev]

The rallye gearbox isnt a close ratio gearbox, its the same in gear ratios as a vts box but with a different final drive. So if you run a very peaky engine its no different.

What do you mean by your last sentence? No different?

Surely if (for example, so dont quote me) a standard vts box will do 60mph on the limiter in 2nd, an S1 box on the same engine would do a few mph less? But would get there a little quicker?

[stephen34]

does a vts top out at more than a vtr ?

[jimmy88]

i need a gearbox i am on my 2nd one and its on its way out again, the gearbow just cant take the power!! (vts) jimmy

[raunchz]

i need a gearbox i am on my 2nd one and its on its way out again, the gearbow just cant take the power!! (vts) jimmy

good luck with it - you'll be after a diesel box then ? IJOKE !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[isle-of-mull]

I have been reading all the threads about power improvements and I have conducted a lot of research about how to go about this, which all seems to cost (suprise suprise) a fair amount of wedge. However one area which i thought I could ask you guys is about gear ratios.

I am currently running a saxo vts which is a MSA log booked rally car. pic in thread below...

http://www.mandh-photography.co.uk/events/Bentwater2010/bent10-546.htm

this was my first event in the car and although the handling feels positive (Gaz gold set up on 190lbs springs) on the fast straight sections I lost massive amounts of time. My co-driver at the event stated that I should look at putting a close ratio box on the vehicle as it was bogging out in 4th and 5th, he stated that the performance gains by doing this would be cost effective solution to start with rather than going down the cam ecu port an polish route. First question is he correct?

2nd up I have seen a close ratio box from Quiafe which is around £1200. Does anybody know whether a 106 rallye standard box has closer ratios and would this fit?

Once again I am aware of all the power gain forums and I know I can do as much as like but it all depends on how I peddle it, but once it's flat to the floor there is bugger all else I can do. Any sensible advice would be awesome.

cheers


i run a vtr rally car. first rally i done in it, it was just a standard engine and box. bit of a disaster with the ratios in the tight bits. so fitted a quaife box with gripper diff. top speed of 80 mph i 5th with stadard engine and standard ecu with revloimiter standard. fitted a 3500 high lift cam, dastek ecu with limiter at 7500 (i think) 52 mm throttle body. now does 112 mph and it gets there like shit off a shovel

[Lippy]

this thread is immense! loving the info here!

I drive a Vts and wanted to know if you can fit an S2 Rallye box so you get the quicker low gear speeds but change the 5th gear so that on a motorway you can do 90 without it screaming and making loads of noise?

Im thinking this cant be done as its the final drive that determines this and not the gear sizes?? if theres another way of doing this let me know.

Im still learning so feel free to call me a numpty ;)

[Mr_P]

this thread is immense! loving the info here!

I drive a Vts and wanted to know if you can fit an S2 Rallye box so you get the quicker low gear speeds but change the 5th gear so that on a motorway you can do 90 without it screaming and making loads of noise?

Im thinking this cant be done as its the final drive that determines this and not the gear sizes?? if theres another way of doing this let me know.

Im still learning so feel free to call me a numpty ;)

AFAIK the final drives are easily changed from box to box.

[mischief]

vtr box all the way then lol

[Lippy]

AFAIK the final drives are easily changed from box to box.

but does the dinal drive effect all of the gears??? I wanted to know if you could just change the 5th gear if anyone can answer that one?

Cheers for the reply Mr_P thought as thats interesting that it can be changed easy enough... might be able to just fit a new xsi final drive to my vts box???

[raunchz]

but does the dinal drive effect all of the gears??? I wanted to know if you could just change the 5th gear if anyone can answer that one?

Cheers for the reply Mr_P thought as thats interesting that it can be changed easy enough... might be able to just fit a new xsi final drive to my vts box???

yes

you can change 5th, but need the matching pinion shaft end gear (this needs to match the end length of the input shaft)

can fit a xsi final drive to vts box - need to swap the pinion shaft and diff over.

I've just fitted a 0.767 5th to an S1 box, but had to change the input shaft too so box apart job.

[Lippy]

yes

you can change 5th, but need the matching pinion shaft end gear (this needs to match the end length of the input shaft)

can fit a xsi final drive to vts box - need to swap the pinion shaft and diff over.

I've just fitted a 0.767 5th to an S1 box, but had to change the input shaft too so box apart job.

Ah so it can be done that you use s1 box for acceleration but a larger 5th gear for economy and motorway driving!?!

what does the .767 give in 5th gear? top speed and revs wise? Id be happy if 5 th was completely gutless but quiet and low revving tbh!

[geoffgti88]

good luck with it - you'll be after a diesel box then ? IJOKE !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The deisel box is no stronger than any other MA box.

[raunchz]

Ah so it can be done that you use s1 box for acceleration but a larger 5th gear for economy and motorway driving!?!

what does the .767 give in 5th gear? top speed and revs wise? Id be happy if 5 th was completely gutless but quiet and low revving tbh!

I'll work it out when I get a sec, its 10% different to the oem 5th. I'll be selling my s1 box when I get home but want to run it on my car to check it's all okay first (as I've fitted new synchro's and uprated input shaft bearings)

Basically the gearbox is just like a bike. The front gears are like the FD (although larger fd = rev quicker but with less top speed) and the rear gears are just like the normal car gears.

So you can see that by changine the front gears (fd) you completely change the rpm for each speed and how quick you accelerate and your top speed

[Toad]

What do you mean by your last sentence? No different?

Surely if (for example, so dont quote me) a standard vts box will do 60mph on the limiter in 2nd, an S1 box on the same engine would do a few mph less? But would get there a little quicker?

Forget about speed and think about RPM.

Let's say you have a VTS box and an S1 Rallye box. Same ratios, but the S1 box has a much higher final drive. Drive to 7000rpm in 3rd gear on both boxes, and then shit into 4th. The RPM will drop by the exact same amount as the ratios are identical.

I higher final drive does still have a useful advantage, even if it's got the same ratios. When tuning an N/A set up to likes of 160bhp / 190bhp, the engine will not be overly peaky, but it will have a greater tendancy to bog down in low RPM areas. The higher final drive will make it easier / quicker to get into the power band if you find yourself in too low of an RPM. But it will also go through the power band quicker too...

Taking a peaky engine as an example, which produces its power between 7000 and 8500rpm. What use is a gearbox which when shifted at 8500rpm, it falls all the way back to 6000rpm? This is where a closer ratio box would be required. It's worth noting that the higher RPM achieved before shiting, the greater the rev drop will be.

[CbVtR]

sorry to jump in on a thread guys, I have read all the posts but I have a question, I do alot of motorway miles but I'm after a bit more get up and go from my vtr, am I better off with a vts box or a lightened flywheel or my vtr box,

[Toad]

You can't have your cake and eat it I'm afraid. :)

If you do a lot of miles, stick with the VTR box.

[CbVtR]

yeah I thought as much, but would a light flywheel make a difference on a vtr box accel wise?

[Toad]

It's one of the latter tuning areas to look at. So no, it won't make much of a difference.

[piranhamatt]

wait so my furio can do 141mph...? faster than the vtr and s?

[Oc2]

wait so my furio can do 141mph...? faster than the vtr and s?


No... the 1.4 box is good for 141mph, not the engine mate

[boz]

so what would a vts, running 16s with 195/40/16 and a vtr box and raised rev limit, get top speed?

bhp not count towards the figures??

[Steve]

so what would a vts, running 16s with 195/40/16 and a vtr box and raised rev limit, get top speed?

bhp not count towards the figures??

i have joes spreadsheet on my old PC al dig it out for you ;)

[lukesaxo]

i have a standard vtr and got 126 mph out of it would a vts box make a higher top speed forgive if iam talking crap lol

[raunchz]

I wouldn't imagine so

[stuartm]

I have what i thought to be a completely standard vts, but looking at the charts on the first page it seems i have a vtr box on it, as at 7200rpm it's showing 70mph on the speedo. Even stranger it will keep on going to 7800rpm & it's almost doing 80mph. 80mph in 5th it's doing 3600rpm, it does accelerate well(some said it would be slow as feck) on a known bit of road to me my previous rx8 would hit 100 by the roadsign & the vts does 95.
Are both the dials out(seems right with missus car & other traffic)?
If not why would it rev round that far, the car looks standard, no exhaust, filters etc.
p.s. & im getting between 42-45mpg
I feel like im telling porkies but it all is true, anyone get rid of my doubts(no sticker on the box, so i can't check the code)

[RAFkev]

As you can see by my sig below I have a few things done to the car.

I can only just hit 60 in second at around 7500rpm(ish). I have standard box and standard 15" vts alloys.

[KieranYeh]

I knew i could hit 160..

SEE THAT EvERYONE furio: 160
VTS: 141

That MUST mean furios are far quicker than vts's at red line 5th when they are drag immune.

[chinkostu]

i have a standard vtr and got 126 mph out of it would a vts box make a higher top speed forgive if iam talking crap lol

no. as the engine cant produce enough power to make the most of it. thats like saying a vts box on a 1.1 will make it as fast!

[DarkMIKE]

Hello Sax maniacs,

I need 13x64 final drive (4.92 gear ratio) for my small rocket.
Pls help me from what MA gearbox it will fit? What else I will need??

THX

[DarkMIKE]

No idea??

[RDKells]

This is quite confusing, as I don't know much about cars, but it seems that if a VTR had the same power as a VTS it would be faster because of the gearbox? Or am I completely wrong? Lol :P

[d3an7]

just wondering to any1 that will know but iv got a saxo furio conversion/vtr with standard furio gearbox and i jut wanted to know 0-60 and top speed thanks..

[PUG1OFF]

i have a diesal box on my gti turbo im building what sort of top speed do you think i could hit in a straight line

[Gabbastard]

thats a "how long is a bit of string" question. If you have 25" wheels and 600bhp, youd be doing 190mph.

[mechsman]

Is the diesel box info definately right? i.e. it's exactly the same as a 1.4 gearbox? If so, win! because my mk1 1.4 sx saxo gearbox is dying and I have a mk1 1.5 diesel 106 box sitting around!

[noirsette]

Sorry to necro this thread, but does anyone have a copy of the original spreadsheet mentioned here?