Aftermarket HID headlamps are ILLEGAL on Saxos.

[djrem]

HID KITS ARE ILLEGAL TO USE ON SAXOs.
Unless the Goverment are liars:
http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/roadsafety/drs/hidheadlamps


Now you'll read it and say "aftermarket HIDS are legal" blah blah.
Read it again. They are not legal for a standard Saxo.
The major factor is this:

2. Once fitted to the vehicle it must have headlamp cleaning and self-levelling (which can be for the headlamp or can be in the vehicle suspension - some expensive estate cars have "self-levelling suspension" and that is adequate). Also the dipped beam must stay on with the main beam.


Show use is fine.
Just remember to take your bumper off and convert back to original bulb lamps before leaving for the road network.

UPDATE:
I emailed the Department for Transport. They intern put together the following reply to our questions:

Just been emailed back from the Transport Technology and Standards
Here it is:

Dear Mr Kingston

The information sheet on our website is the Department’s view because the Department for Transport cannot provide an authoritative interpretation of the law; that is a matter for the courts. You should obtain expert legal advice if you intend to use an HID conversion kit.

The Road Vehicles Lighting Regulations 1989 can be read on the internet at: http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si1989/Uksi_19891796_en_1.htm


The Road Vehicle Lighting Regulations 1989 require headlamps to have an approval mark to show compliance with the relevant European legislation (see Schedule 4 of the RVLR). A lamp that is designed for use with a filament bulb will be approved to the specific regulation for these lamps, e.g. UNECE Regulation 112.

Paragraph 14 of part II of the regulations states:

Filament lamps
14.—(1) Where a motor vehicle first used on or after 1st April 1986 or any trailer manufactured on or after 1st October 1985 is equipped with any lamp of a type that is required by any Schedule to these Regulations to be marked with an approval mark, no filament lamp other than a filament lamp referred to in the Designation of Approval Marks Regulations in-
(a) regulation 4 and Schedule 2, items 2 or 2A, 8, 20, 37 or 37A; or

(b) regulation 5 and Schedule 4, item 18, shall be fitted to any such lamp.

This effectively means that only approved filament bulbs may be fitted to a lamp designed and approved for use with filament light sources. A HID light source is not a filament bulb and therefore cannot be used in a halogen lamp.

The above basically prohibits the use of HID conversion kits, whether or not headlamp cleaners or automatic levelling are fitted.

As stated in the factsheet, the only legal way to convert a vehicle to HID is to remove the existing lamp units (by lamp unit I mean the entire lamp including reflectors, lenses etc. not just the bulb) and replacing it with a lamp unit that has an approval mark to show it was approved for use with HID light sources, in this case UNECE Regulation 98.

Once this is done there is then the issue of headlamp cleaners and automatic levelling. The RVLR require that headlamps should not be used so as to cause undue dazzle or discomfort to other persons using the road, Part III Para 27. Due to the high intensity of HID lights, they will cause dazzle if dirt accumulates on the lens or they become mis-aimed under different loading conditions. In our view the only way of preventing dazzle, and so complying with the regulations, is to fit automatic headlamp levelling and headlamp washers. This is already the accepted approach in European regulations, see UNECE Regulation 48.

Finally, there are good safety reasons not to put a HID light source into a lamp designed for halogen bulbs. Recent tests carried out by the Department on two such kits showed that, although they produced a beam pattern that might pass the visual MOT test, the actual light intensity at specific points in the beam pattern that are controlled to minimise dazzle exceeded the minimum allowable values by a considerable margin. In addition these lights tended to put too much light directly in front of the vehicle rather than "throwing" it down the road where it is needed. This will tend to draw the driver’s eye away from the distant road scene and give them less time to react to obstacles in the road.

Yours sincerely

Jillian Smith
DfT – Transport Technology and Standards

[djrem]

bump
Please sticky or send to all users of these kits.

[Mieran]

I am sick to death of people posting about them every 2 minutes.

[Marshy]

Most people know they're illegal by now, but will still continue to ignore it just like decat pipes and tinted front windows. Stickying this isn't a bad idea, because its getting boring now with the legality of HID's being lectured in every single thread they are mentioned by the righteous gods out there

[VTR-Chris]

rem you seem to have some weird hate/obsession with HID kits

why???????

[LUK3H]

i dunno what the big fuss is at the minute with everone under the sun trying to piont out there illegal, if someone wants to take that risk they can, ive had them for years and always had my headlights correctly set up and not oncehave i been stopped for them, nort have they failed an mot nor has any police officers said anything about them if ive been stopped for other reasons.

[Mieran]

rem you seem to have some weird hate/obsession with HID kits

why???????

No, that AXracing dude hates them with a passion, I'm unsurprised he hasn't commented yet

[Spanky]

im await AXracing or whoever he is to post in this lol

we no they are illegal, majority dont care.

Just liek decat pipes are illegal....

I dont see ANY threads on here saying "DECATS ARE ILLEGAL, SPREAD THE WORD!"

get over it at the end of the day, if you dont have them, dont worry about it.


EDIT - just seen your post Merian lol

[gouldy87]

ive drove past cops with mine loads of times never been stopped once. the light from them is white not blue. my side lights stay on with my main beam aswell. i cant see the problem with them if you dont drive with your high beam on or with your lights angled up like your trying to land a plane! also my adjuster works fine with them to move them up and down

[Mieran]

Tbf they don't blind people if they are installed in projectors, I've got a few mates with them on and look very OEM.

[Spanky]

angel eyes are projectors aint they??

Couldnt you get a glass front made up so it doesnt melt it?

I will be getting some soon for my standard mk2 headlights, if i get told of for them i sell them, basically...

[Mieran]

Yeah a "projector" is the circular glass thingy, angels have them.

My mate got HIDs in his angels and they haven't melted yet, even if they did melt just use the lenses from your factory headlamps.

http://www.oznium.com/images/projector_headlight_explain.jpg

[Barry123]

legality of HID's being lectured in every single thread they are mentioned by the righteous gods out there

but I've never mentioned it once :err:

[Barry123]

its because behind the projector 'fish eye bulb' it has the screen that stops the light scattering everywhere and creates the wide ' \_ ' type pattern


I has projectors on my morettes! wooooo

[Spanky]

i wasnt aware morettes had projectors, or is it just some??

[Barry123]

i wasnt aware morettes had projectors, or is it just some??


Mine use H7's for dipped and H1's for Main (or the other way around lol)
projector is in the middle :y:
http://www.morette.com/products/HEADLIGHTS/CITROEN/SAXO/SAXO%202/popup_hl_saxo2_h7_2.jpg

[gouldy87]

could do with some bigger fog lights on there matey lol!

[Mieran]

I think there is 2 types of morrtes for the mk2, iirc the ones leeroy had didn't have projectors

could do with some bigger fog lights on there matey lol!

Thats not his car.

[Barry123]

could do with some bigger fog lights on there matey lol!

hahaha, not my car though dude - i did laugh at that though

I think there is 2 types of morrtes for the mk2, iirc the ones leeroy had didn't have projectors


Yeah leeroy had the H4 (inferior) version of mine.

[gouldy87]

lol sorry mate was only messing!

[djrem]

A decat pipe does the environment harm

Aftermarket headlights cause accidents.

I had a head on collision down to speed and the fact my newly fitted headlights didnt light the road properly.

I'm sure someone that got hit in the head with a show cage would do exactly the same.

"Everyone knows by now"
Well clearly not. There are many threads made that continue to vouch that they are legal and too many posters recommending them.

It took years for people to realise the same for neons in and under cars.

[gouldy87]

yeah alright sorry my bad

[djrem]

Don't apologise.
If i had done my research, i wouldnt have endangered myself.

But i nearly killed a girl and her boyfriend.
Luckily she had a clio.
And it was me that got all the injuries for my mistake.

[Barry123]

im with ya on this actually...

decat, ok not so good for the environment (albeit really just from cold)

but the headlights pose a serious hazard, the number of bastards I've driven past with dodgy lights... those HID ones seem like they're pulsing as they approach :wall:

[Spanky]

A decat pipe does the environment harm

Aftermarket headlights cause accidents.

I had a head on collision down to speed and the fact my newly fitted headlights didnt light the road properly.

I'm sure someone that got hit in the head with a show cage would do exactly the same.

"Everyone knows by now"
Well clearly not. There are many threads made that continue to vouch that they are legal and too many posters recommending them.

It took years for people to realise the same for neons in and under cars.



Was reading up about these earlier and they are legal to an extent (even under car) and mainly depends on the police man at the time....

[dispin]

So does this mean I can put HID's in my angel eyes since it has the projector thing? I've got a mk1.

[djrem]

[/B]


Was reading up about these earlier and they are legal to an extent (even under car) and mainly depends on the police man at the time....

If they are white on the front, orange on teh sides and red at the rear and the tubes arent visble... blah blah.


No.
Any real policeman will give you a fine.
And if you are dumb enough to use blue on the road you face "impersonating an emergency vehicle". Serious.

Don't be a retarded Vin Diesel wannabe.

EDIT: the law:

Undercar Neons: Are they legal?

Unfortunately, this is not a simple question to answer. In theory, they are legal providing that you follow these rules.

You MUST NOT be able to see the actual tubes. As long as all you can see is the GLOW then in theory they are not causing a problem. Of couse we recommend that if you have them fitted you have a switch to turn them on and off.

They must not cause a distraction to yourself or other road users. To be honest if they're turned on it could be said that you're distracting other drivers, it all depends on who is dealing with the matter.

If you are stopped by the police, be courteous and polite. If you are asked to switch off the neons we suggest that you do so or they could issue you with an order to remove them.

[Barry123]

So does this mean I can put HID's in my angel eyes since it has the projector thing? I've got a mk1.

noooooooooooooooo

[gouldy87]

i was joking rem lol. seriousley though whats your opinions on my head lights and there legality?- i have ultra smoked head lights (mk2 saxo) i dont have a hid kit though. i have some bright white ultra side light bulbs and some bright white ultra main beam bulbs and the buld colour is blue but the light colour is white?

[djrem]

So does this mean I can put HID's in my angel eyes since it has the projector thing? I've got a mk1.

No.

read the first post and associated link.

Basically look at this standard saab with HIDS:
http://www.thetorquereport.com/12008saab93sportcombi-thumb.jpg

look at the rectangle under the right side light
That squirts a jet at the headlight and cleans it.

YOU NEED ONE OF THEM TO HAVE HIDS.

[Spanky]

If they are white on the front, orange on teh sides and red at the rear and the tubes arent visble... blah blah.


No.
Any real policeman will give you a fine.
And if you are dumb enough to use blue on the road you face "impersonating an emergency vehicle". Serious.

Don't be a retarded Vin Diesel wannabe.

Im not dumb, i would not impersonate the police, frankly i would not want to be impersonating a pig....

And i aint no vin diesel wannabe either, so do yourself a favour and stop being so sarky for a change, i made a comment, your reply was un-called for, dont liek it, dont reply.

And as for the law on neons, some are acceptable, some are not.

The law is the law, people break it, people sitck to it, thats life, get over it tbh...

[dispin]

Are there any HID's bulbs that will fit in my fog lights?

[djrem]

i was joking rem lol. seriousley though whats your opinions on my head lights and there legality?- i have ultra smoked head lights (mk2 saxo) i dont have a hid kit though. i have some bright white ultra side light bulbs and some bright white ultra main beam bulbs and the buld colour is blue but the light colour is white?

As long as they shine white and are e-marked, you are within the law.
The key factor is you are using road legal bulbs and not HIDs.

LED sidelights are legal (as long as they havent died).
Smoked headlights are OEM, so aslong as your smoking didnt affect the beam pattern, its fine.

Im trying to not be pedantic but this site has too many idiots assuming when it comes to safety modifications to their cars.

[gouldy87]

so happy days it is for me then! yeeey!

[Mieran]

Also most of the cars with factory xenons have auto-leveling headlights like this 300C (look how sharp the light beam is on the wall and how its not scattering everywhere)

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=EAL1mAjQwbM

[djrem]

Im not dumb, i would not impersonate the police, frankly i would not want to be impersonating a pig....

And i aint no vin diesel wannabe either, so do yourself a favour and stop being so sarky for a change, i made a comment, your reply was un-called for, dont liek it, dont reply.

And as for the law on neons, some are acceptable, some are not.

The law is the law, people break it, people sitck to it, thats life, get over it tbh...

Don't ask a retarded question and expect an adult orientated answer.


Are there any HID's bulbs that will fit in my fog lights?

You should get round the law with wiring the fog lights up as spotlights.
The Haynes/Max Power "Modifying your Saxo/106" book have details on how to do it.

The HID bulbs should fit there okay, if with a little modification.

[djrem]

Also most of the cars with factory xenons have auto-leveling headlights like this 300C (look how sharp the light beam is on the wall and how its not scattering everywhere)

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=EAL1mAjQwbM

Auto-leveling is a legal requirement on those types of lights from the factory :) :y:

[Barry123]

The law is the law, people break it, people sitck to it, thats life, get over it tbh...

and some people break the law without realising due to reading and believing bollocks on the internet... It'd be wiser if you didn't get the information from a 100% reliable source (i.e. the pigs, the government or similar) then it's not worth posting and then receiving a correction for it, for you then to get upset.

Are there any HID's bulbs that will fit in my fog lights?

for the amount of time your fogs light are on during the year, it isn't worth it, legal or not.

[AXracing]

If you still wish to fit them that is up to you and you do so at your own risk. Just keep it to your self and don't start ranting on about how great they are and you think everyone should get them. Its like the idiots who come on saying how they raced there mates on some motorway and were doing 130+mph undertaking people.

Most outlets for people opinions have basic underlying rules allowing you to say anything as long as you are not doing anything illegal or promotion illegal activity. Be it taking drugs, Street racing, Drink driving, Speeding, Suicide bombings or other illegal activity. To me this is sensible and really something we should adhere to.

PS, Decat pipes are not illegal, Failing the gas test is.

[Spanky]

Don't ask a retarded question and expect an adult orientated answer.

If you take a look back you will realise i never asked any questions apart from the diff types or morettes, thank you very much :)

[TU-Tuning]

For fucks sake. Ill dig out my one million posts on this subject. These regulations arent new yeah


'Ive got pulled for having a brake light out like 2 weeks ago, he checked literally everything on the car including the headlights and said he was very happy with it all, just had to get a garage to stamp a form to prove id changed the brake light. I was even asked to switch between high and low beam a few times, they made the clunking noise he obviously recognized they weren't normal bulbs and he did nothing.

Ive got 6k's, they're just white so they're not imitating the emergency services, I have them correctly aligned and Ive never had another road user flash me because of them'


Point is YES they are illegal. So are decats. So is breaking the speed limit on the motorway. But people still do it. And in the case of the decat and speeding, if the police catch you your fucked. As I said above, the police dont give a shit. Ive also been pulled into a checking station with literally hundreds of cops in bristol checking cars for everything and they didnt give two shits. A VOSA dude checked it over too.


So if you want them, buy them. Or dont buy them if your a saint. And if you dont want them, then who gives a fuck anyway.

[Spanky]

For fucks sake. Ill dig out my one million posts on this subject. These regulations arent new yeah


'Ive got pulled for having a brake light out like 2 weeks ago, he checked literally everything on the car including the headlights and said he was very happy with it all, just had to get a garage to stamp a form to prove id changed the brake light. I was even asked to switch between high and low beam a few times, they made the clunking noise he obviously recognized they weren't normal bulbs and he did nothing.

Ive got 6k's, they're just white so they're not imitating the emergency services, I have them correctly aligned and Ive never had another road user flash me because of them'


Point is YES they are illegal. So are decats. So is breaking the speed limit on the motorway. But people still do it. And in the case of the decat and speeding, if the police catch you your fucked. As I said above, the police dont give a shit. Ive also been pulled into a checking station with literally hundreds of cops in bristol checking cars for everything and they didnt give two shits. A VOSA dude checked it over too.


So if you want them, buy them. Or dont buy them if your a saint. And if you dont want them, then who gives a fuck anyway.

Amen :y:

[djrem]

As suggesting that we can all drive around with our cars looking like a recently landed UFO.

As long as others are well in the understanding that slapping fake light sabers under their cars is 100x more likely to get them pulled for: "caus[ing] a distraction to yourself or other road users." (http://www.4youngdrivers.com/information-18/modifying-laws-28/58.htm) then thats up to them.

As for HIDs, you can get a near replication with the brightest road legal bulbs.

Unlike my general chat twatness, this thread i'm genuinely trying to open peoples eyes to what happens when you:

1. Can't see the road properly
2. Dazzle other drivers.
3.
http://photos-e.ak.fbcdn.net/photos-ak-sf2p/v64/81/114/503085200/n503085200_66644_9930.jpg
Dislocated elbow.
6 permenant bolts in my arm.
The fact that you know you ruined somebody elses vehicle and scarred them.

The worse moments of the car accident, is hearing screams and thinking you should be hearing more...


End of the day.
If you are dumb enough to get them
GET THEM ALIGNED PROPERLY AT LEAST.

[evans1089]

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=yVuSSdZNsZw&feature=related

[dispin]

for the amount of time your fogs light are on during the year, it isn't worth it, legal or not.

I actually use mine a lot. The main beam is terrible on my angel eyes. I use my fog lights like main beams, even turning them off when other people are coming. They're not that bright, but I have a bit of trouble seeing in the dark. So if it is legal to put some HID's in, i will.

[Spanky]

i see EXACTLY where your coming from Rem.

But this thne leads to an argument about "eople who leave fog lights on" and "people who dont turn the main beam off" there are MANY ways to get dazzled on the roads, even a missplaced roadsign with main beam on can casue you to get dazzled andnot see the road for a second or 2......

I see your point but in all fairness, its not going to stop people...

[djrem]

I actually use mine a lot. The main beam is terrible on my angel eyes. I use my fog lights like main beams, even turning them off when other people are coming. They're not that bright, but I have a bit of trouble seeing in the dark. So if it is legal to put some HID's in, i will.

Something like these to fit behind:
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/STUNNING-12V-POLISHED-CHROME-ANGEL-EYE-SPOTLIGHTS-6inch_W0QQitemZ290285600505QQihZ019QQcategoryZ1040 0QQtcZphotoQQcmdZViewItem

And wired using the "Spotlight" wiring option.

Problem is, on the MOT.
If you have fog lights, they have to work.

recommend checking the VOSA site.

[TU-Tuning]

Oh come on Rem I know your crash was bad yeah and your a sound bloke but playing the guilt trip card or something? Did you crash because of a HID kit or because of something else?


I can ASSURE you 200% that a properly setup HID kit is no more dazzling than normal lights. Ive NEVER been flashed in over a year of owning HID kits. If you fit a kit and dont allign the lights, quite simply your a retard anyway. I have, as have most people who fit the kits. Its the same concept as when you fit a bulb. The headlight is no longer alligned.


Std HID setups on the big people carriers I would agree with you, theyre too high and they DO blind you. On a car that high its irresponsible. But they get away with it. The legal limit on HID bulbs is 6500k. Take a look at the lights on a Bentley. Theyre like 10000k. You gonna take it to Bentley now?


If you had made a thread saying 'HID kit owners, allign your sets correctly' I would have recpected that. But this thread is bullshit, just like every other HID kit thread before it

[AXracing]

I actually use mine a lot. The main beam is terrible on my angel eyes. I use my fog lights like main beams, even turning them off when other people are coming. They're not that bright, but I have a bit of trouble seeing in the dark. So if it is legal to put some HID's in, i will.

The original lights are actually not half bad on the Saxo. I would suggest if your having problem seeing there there may be a problem with your lights. Or have you swapped them, tinted them or something like that?

[djrem]

i see EXACTLY where your coming from Rem.

But this thne leads to an argument about "eople who leave fog lights on" and "people who dont turn the main beam off" there are MANY ways to get dazzled on the roads, even a missplaced roadsign with main beam on can casue you to get dazzled andnot see the road for a second or 2......

I see your point but in all fairness, its not going to stop people...

People who already have them and have invest £160+ arent going to give a shit until its too late.

I mean, £160 is a fair chunk of what their car is worth (1.1 mk1 etc), but it will save those who are looking to buy them.

There are many issue with the roads that we can't solve.
But there are simple ones we can.

[djrem]

Oh come on Rem I know your crash was bad yeah and your a sound bloke but playing the guilt trip card or something? Did you crash because of a HID kit or because of something else?


I can ASSURE you 200% that a properly setup HID kit is no more dazzling than normal lights. Ive NEVER been flashed in over a year of owning HID kits. If you fit a kit and dont allign the lights, quite simply your a retard anyway. I have, as have most people who fit the kits. Its the same concept as when you fit a bulb. The headlight is no longer alligned.


Std HID setups on the big people carriers I would agree with you, theyre too high and they DO blind you. On a car that high its irresponsible. But they get away with it. The legal limit on HID bulbs is 6500k. Take a look at the lights on a Bentley. Theyre like 10000k. You gonna take it to Bentley now?


If you had made a thread saying 'HID kit owners, allign your sets correctly' I would have recpected that. But this thread is bullshit, just like every other HID kit thread before it

Do Saxos have Auto Leveling?
Do Saxos have self cleaning headlight functions?

No.
Therefore any aftermarket HID kit fitted without those options are ILLEGAL.

I quoted the law on the front page, first post.
I slapped the picture of my smashed motor simply for the shock value yes.
But only so hopefully the skim readers would flip back and check for themselves.

Just a messenger here.

[AXracing]

As for HIDs, you can get a near replication with the brightest road legal bulbs.

That is very true. You can get bulbs that are not far off twice as bright as the standard bulbs and are totally legal. :y:

[mattchewone]

Are HID's legal on Corsa's? As a far few on the CCUK forum have them. I dont as im poor.

C's dont have self cleaning. Not sure about auto leveling.

[Spanky]

i currently have Ring Rally Sports Blue bulbs in which are 80w each on dipped beam and 100w on main beam and in no way are they as bright or anywhere near as bright as HID's

[Mieran]

I recommend MTEC or ULTRA bulbs, they are good.

[djrem]

Are HID's legal on Corsa's? As a far few on the CCUK forum have them. I dont as im poor.

C's dont have self cleaning. Not sure about auto leveling.

Sorry if i wasnt clear.
Its not a case of "and"/"or"

The law requires them all.

Think of "getting a HID kit" as "having sex with"

and "vagina" and "boobs" as "self-leveling" and "self-cleaning"

You dont have sex with something without a vagina and boobs.
Same with HIDS.

[mattchewone]

Sorry if i wasnt clear.
Its not a case of "and"/"or"

The law requires them all.

Think of "getting a HID kit" as "having sex with"

and "vagina" and "boobs" as "self-leveling" and "self-cleaning"

You dont have sex with something without a vagina and boobs.
Same with HIDS.

So it has to have self cleaning and auto levelling. Oh right ill post up on there.

[AXracing]

. The legal limit on HID bulbs is 6500k. Take a look at the lights on a Bentley. Theyre like 10000k. You gonna take it to Bentley now?

No there not who told you that? There a standard Philips 6000 (actually 5800k) bulb.

[TU-Tuning]

Do Saxos have Auto Leveling?
Do Saxos have self cleaning headlight functions?

No.
Therefore any aftermarket HID kit fitted without those options are ILLEGAL.

I quoted the law on the front page, first post.
I slapped the picture of my smashed motor simply for the shock value yes.
But only so hopefully the skim readers would flip back and check for themselves.

Just a messenger here.

Then read my post where I quite clearly state they are ILLEGAL.

Then read the bit about what the police ACTUALLY THINK IN REAL LIFE and not on the INTERNET.

And sorry man but I dont give a shit what you were trying to achieve or if your just the messenger, putting a post up of a smashed up car and saying 'youll always hear screams' is childish and pathetic. Thats got fuck all to do with HID kits if theyre fitted properly, and even with your opinion on the matter theres no need to post that kind of material. You want me to go into the event thread and post up pictures of people whove been killed by other drivers on the 'Ring in the Ring trip thread?

I aint making a personal attack like I said you always make me crack a smile but youve gone too far with this one imo

[Spanky]

No there not who told you that? There a standard Philips 6000 (actually 5800k) bulb.

link to these please......

also do you no what kind of K rating Ring Rally Sport bulbs are, the ones which arelike 130w etc etc

[baker556]

Whats all this bullshit with people who actually have HIDs, i have to go down alot of country roads and when its dark you can't see jack all when any car with HIDs come at you it dazzles you but even worse when its in a car without a projector etc

why do you have to have little washer jets for HID lights anyway :S just makes them brighter after washing the headlight if dirty....is it cause its something to do with the dazzling effect..

it really annoys me when you see people with them blinding the feck outta your vision as you have to slow right down basically drive into a hedge and let them pass....makes me wanna get some just to show how bad it is for the opposing driver ! ...and yes i do flash these people with them but what they gonna do yo...

[Barry123]

why are you getting sooooo wound up man?

he's pointing out (with completely legit references) that HID's are illegal. so you've got them and you've been stopped for them and got away with it. ok... but that isn't the point of the thread. It's to tell those that are bothered about being legal that HID's on saxo's aren't legal.

job done. why are you so worried by this demonic thread?

[djrem]

fuck it.
Fit a Nazi search lamp to the front of your car.
http://www.mccoy.army.mil/vtriad_online/11242000/images/searchlight_400_x.jpg

Law's there to help people.

I make numerous, and informative posts regarding the subject.
You pick the one that I actually involve what i felt when i slammed my car into an 18 year old girls clio. And pass it off as a guilt trip.

People can feel what they want. its the magic of being human.

The first post has the facts.
Im going to bed.
Just spent £2.6m and Im running out of time to bang this tranny...

[dispin]

The original lights are actually not half bad on the Saxo. I would suggest if your having problem seeing there there may be a problem with your lights. Or have you swapped them, tinted them or something like that?

No they're fine but like i said my angel eyes main beam is shit. So if I can I want to fit brighter lights to my fog lights.

[Daley-Boy]

im not being funny mate but iv had hid kit on my car for over a year and i work in a garage my car hasnt faild its mot because of the lights aslong as thy are set up right thr fine thy dont dazzle other drivers if they are at the correct hight i would just advise people if they do have hid kits on theyr car go to a garage with an mot station and get them set up properly and you wont have a problem i never have done and the police up here will pull anyone under the age of 25 if they have a wee hot hatch for anything and iv never had a problem with it n up here ul get a fine for almost anthing and they go over your car with a fine tooth comb

[TU-Tuning]

Yeah Ill make sure I do that Rem :err: Again I know Im the one ranting but I dont believe Im the one using childish examples...

Im getting pissed off Ads cus Im fed up of having to justify this stuff and as I honestly feel theyre a good mod. Imo saxo lights are wank. These are amazing at night on full beam, down the backroads. And they make a car look much more modern too.

I got pissed off with the car thing because its completely overdramatic, and I know for a fact that he didnt get his car fucked up by some selfish prick who fitted a retro HID kit and shocked him off the road.

As Rem says, people can feel what they want, its the benefit of being human. Ive obviously made it pretty obvious how a feel and Ive done it like this cus Im pissed for having to say it every other week and Im a retard and can let things go lol.

Anyway, no offence intended to anyone, think I got my point across. If I one day get pulled by an officer of the law and told to remove my headlights for std ones ill be doing it. Until then, im gonna enjoy more trouble free HID usage like I have for the past year.

[baker556]

im not being funny mate but iv had hid kit on my car for over a year and i work in a garage my car hasnt faild its mot because of the lights aslong as thy are set up right thr fine thy dont dazzle other drivers if they are at the correct hight i would just advise people if they do have hid kits on theyr car go to a garage with an mot station and get them set up properly and you wont have a problem i never have done and the police up here will pull anyone under the age of 25 if they have a wee hot hatch for anything and iv never had a problem with it n up here ul get a fine for almost anthing and they go over your car with a fine tooth comb

if they go over it with a fine tooth comb they would obviously fine you as the law states HIDs are ilegal FACT.

[Marshy]

See post 8 in this thread, hit the nail on the head tbh -
http://bbs.scoobynet.com/scoobynet-general-1/714775-hid-aftermarket-kits.html

[AXracing]

I can ASSURE you 200% that a properly setup HID kit is no more dazzling than normal lights.

All being equal the brighter the bulb the more glare. So unless your HIDs are no brighter then the bulbs you swapped them with your are incorrect. Colour comes in to it as well. The US Governments very own Department Of Transportation’s Office Of Crash Avoidance Standards ran tests that showed cool blue light reduced the road lighting ability of a standard headlamp by a massive 67% and actually increased glare further by 33%.

[djrem]

Good post.
I'll get clarification tomorrow at some point:

Transport Technology and Standards 6
Department for Transport
Zone 2/04
Great Minster House
76 Marsham Street
London
SW1P 4DR

Telephone: 020 7944 2078
Fax: 020 7944 2196
Email: TTS.enquiries@dft.gsi.gov.uk

[TU-Tuning]

All being equal the brighter the bulb the more glare. So unless your HIDs are no brighter then the bulbs you swapped them with your are incorrect. Colour comes in to it as well. The US Governments very own Department Of Transportation’s Office Of Crash Avoidance Standards ran tests that showed cool blue light reduced the road lighting ability of a standard headlamp by a massive 67% and actually increased glare further by 33%.

till havent been flashed. A years driving. So Mr Joe Public obviously doesnt give a shit, as they cant see any glare :y:


Seriously as Ive always said, you can through as much legislation and automotive knowledge at me as you want mate but Ive got real life, solid examples and they trump words every time

[Marshy]

Good post.
I'll get clarification tomorrow at some point:

Transport Technology and Standards 6
Department for Transport
Zone 2/04
Great Minster House
76 Marsham Street
London
SW1P 4DR

Telephone: 020 7944 2078
Fax: 020 7944 2196
Email: TTS.enquiries@dft.gsi.gov.uk

Please do Rem, I am just as interested as your are as to what their exact views are, the link in your first post seems pretty vauge to me and is obviously not clear enough, which is causing these massive debates

[Mieran]

AXracing you got a link to them philps bulbs you were talking about before?

[AXracing]

Copied from a post I just found on Scoobynet, hit the nail on the head tbh -
http://bbs.scoobynet.com/scoobynet-general-1/714775-hid-aftermarket-kits.html

Interesting but this person is very wrong in as far as he is simply ignoring the law. He has made the assumption that its the DFT opinion but its more than that its law based on Road Safety Act and Road Traffic Act.

[AXracing]

till havent been flashed. A years driving. So Mr Joe Public obviously doesnt give a shit, as they cant see any glare :y:


Seriously as Ive always said, you can through as much legislation and automotive knowledge at me as you want mate but Ive got real life, solid examples and they trump words every time

Actually agree with you more or less on that. I also do believe you when you say your cars is not giving undue glare. Its just as these lights are ungoverned as such many are not. I just think any open recommendation of these is a bad thing. As you will always get some idiot go out and get the 10,000lm bulbs and stick 4 stets in there car and melt people as he drives past. This is why if any one asks about them I will just say it as it is. Unless you comply to there E approval they are illegal.

[AXracing]

AXracing you got a link to them philps bulbs you were talking about before?

http://www.osram.com/osram_com/Consumer/Automotive_Lighting/Products/Headlights/NIGHT_BREAKER/index.html

[TU-Tuning]

Actually agree with you more or less on that. I also do believe you when you say your cars is not giving undue glare. Its just as these lights are ungoverned as such many are not. I just think any open recommendation of these is a bad thing. As you will always get some idiot go out and get the 10,000lm bulbs and stick 4 stets in there car and melt people as he drives past.

I 100% agree with you. Seriously I accept that legally they may very well be illegal, when we first started talking about this in previous threads I didnt think they were because of the info similar to what Marshy posted, no strict defining laws etc. But my main point has always been that if used correctly, they are perfectly safe. Just like cars themselves. People that abuse this are retards.

Fair play, muchos respectos

[frankie]

its only illegal if you get caught.....

[minxymears]

TBF Ive had HID's on my car for 4 months since I purchased it as they came on the car. Theyre a hell of a lot better than standards and imo make it safer for me to drive as I can see more on the road, see further ahead and see verges etc.
My bulbs are e-marked, so for the exception of a washer jet are you saying theyre illegal? Even though chances are my headlights are cleaner than Mr Saab who does 100,000 motorway miles at 100mph so his headlights are filthy and he never uses the headlamp washers cos he doesnt even notice theyre there anyway.
If they fail the MOT, then theyll come off, until then im not taking them off cos the law says so.... Ive driven past numerous cop cars and sat behind many, and theyve never had a problem ... to be honest its small and insignificant... If you looked at statistics, youd probably find a negligible amount of accidents caused by glare from 'improper headlights', I appreciate its personalk but there must have been other factors

[djrem]

I've been out the office all day today being wined and dined so haven't had a chance to contact the corrent authorities.

"I put a woman in an acid bath and distributed her personal posessions across the UK at different waste disposal sites. So because I never got caught, i didnt commit a crime did i"

well, if the goverment "view" killing and disposing a body as a crime then that may just be true.

we'll find out tomorrow gang :)

If i'm wrong, expect a first post update and thread title change. :)

[gouldy87]

nazi search lights ftw!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!

[LUK3H]

my 306 had hids in and when correctly set up there was minimum glare, admittedly there was more than standard but nothing greatly noticeable, however my dads landrover discovery set up properly with halogen philips bulbs perfectly legal when driving towards that there was loads of glare becuase of the height of the headlamp, correctly set up hids do no harm to others on the road, yes soempeople just stick them in and put them up to full height and think im mr cool i can see for miles but if theres set up properly theres no harm in having them. Also isnt the self leveling headlight and washers only for cars from the factory and doesnt apply to the aftermarket kits?

[AXracing]

Also isnt the self leveling headlight and washers only for cars from the factory and doesnt apply to the aftermarket kits?

As far as I can tell this is just one of those internet things that has no support. I got a copy of the ECE regulations and at no point they exempted retrofit. However that is no surprising as the regulations actually forbid the retrofitting.

Controversially the UK DFT has said in there opinion as long as there fitted to the same standards as OEM systems with approved headlights, bulbs, washers and self levelling then its permissible.

[Shak]

hids should be banned. driving home from work through the new forest with hids in your face ain't good, i can see the lights but not alot else i.e. the road and where it's going. also when they flash blue from certain angles i think the feds are following me. they're ok in town where there is ambient light.

[VTR-Chris]

mountain.molehill

[VtrFarlz86]

Would the standard vt light lever control not work for the hids?

[AXracing]

Would the standard vt light lever control not work for the hids?

As HIDs are two or three times brighter the people making the regs felt that the level system had to me automatic and quick to respond. Its to minimise the possibility of temporarily blinding oncoming drivers.

[djrem]

I have sent the follwing to them:


Im having an issue with confirming the meaning of this statement on your website.
All the information I have read has been from here:
http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/roadsafety/drs/hidheadlamps

The following is an excerpt from your website and i have highlight the areas that are causing an issue.

December 2006
In the Department's view it is not legal to sell or use after market HID lighting kits, for converting conventional Halogen headlamps to HID Xenon. If a customer wants to convert his vehicle to Xenon HID he must purchase completely new Xenon HID headlamps. The reason for this is that the existing lens and reflector are designed around a Halogen filament bulb, working to very precise tolerances. If one places a HID "burner" (bulb) in the headlamp, the beam pattern will not be correct, there will be glare in some places and not enough light in other places within the beam pattern.
The following is the legal rationale:
The Road Vehicle Lighting Regulations 1989 regulate the situation in the UK.
Under these Regulations, HID/Gas Discharge/Xenon headlamps are not mentioned and therefore they are not permitted according to the strict letter of the law.

“View” – This has caused an issue as, opinions are well known as not being the law. Who is the governing body who can “State” that these kits are not legal?
“The Road Vehicle Lighting Regulations 1989” – You do not provide details from the regulations nor a link to read what these regulations are. Could you provide so?
“Are not mentioned” – If the fitment of HIDs are not mentioned and “therefore they are not permitted according to the strict letter of the law”, how can a manufacture fit them as standard?

Please get back to me, and for further reading, this is a link to a discussion forum where this is causing a severe crossing of wires regarding the Law around fitting HID headlamps/bulbs retrospectively:
http://www.saxperience.com/forum/showthread.php?t=199704


Regards,

Rem Kingston

[AXracing]

Why did you not just look it up for your self. You can get a copy of all UK regulations from the Office of Public Sector Information.

At no point on the UK Governments Department For Transport even say it was there “view” or there “Opinion” on the The Road Vehicle Lighting Regulations 1989. They simply say it as a fact it is. Reread what they have said.

The Road Vehicle Lighting Regulations 1989 is what is says. Its the regulations defining the requirements for vehicle lightings in the UK. This is what the Police work from as parts of the Road Safety Act 2006 and Road Traffic Act 1988 (Act = Law) Under The Road Vehicle Lighting Regulations 1989 there is no criteria permitting Gas Discharge Lights(HID) in any way shape or form. Hence as Gas Discharge Lights (HID) are not permitted they are not allowed.

[djrem]

The Road Vehicle Lighting Regulations 1989 is what is says. Its the regulations defining the requirements for vehicle lightings in the UK. This is what the Police work from as parts of the Road Safety Act 2006 and Road Traffic Act 1988 (Act = Law) Under The Road Vehicle Lighting Regulations 1989 there is no criteria permitting Gas Discharge Lights(HID) in any way shape or form. Hence as Gas Discharge Lights (HID) are not permitted they are not allowed.

So manufacturers who release cars with these as standard are breaking the law too?

[AXracing]

No because they are EU legal cars and as we are part of the EU we are compelled to allow vehicles that comply to there laws to use our roads. This is why the DFT refer to the EU regulations.

What DFT have said is even though the EU laws do not allow retrofit HIDS. This is as under EU law the lights have to be approved for any vehicle type they are fitted to. The DFT in there opinion said they would not have any problem with any such retrofit HIDs as long as they fully comply with the EU regulations as per OEM HIDS do even if your vehicle is not type approved to take them.

Though strictly speaking that is still illegal.

[djrem]

No because they are EU legal cars and as we are part of the EU we are compelled to allow vehicles that comply to there laws to use our roads. This is why the DFT refer to the EU regulations.

What DFT have said is even though the EU laws do not allow retrofit HIDS. This is as under EU law the lights have to be approved for any vehicle type they are fitted to. The DFT in there opinion said they would not have any problem with any such retrofit HIDs as long as they fully comply with the EU regulations as per OEM HIDS do even if your vehicle is not type approved to take them.

Though strictly speaking that is still illegal.

Yah! Original first post still stands as fact then

[AXracing]

Yes and it was well said. I personally think it should be a sticky as its good info. :y:

[Shak]

mountain.molehill

i hope your not refering to my comment, i found it's quite helpful to see where your going. i'm guessing you've got hids and probably drive round with the fogs on aswell. if you've ever had a light shone in your face in a dark room the only thing you can see is the light, nothing behind it. a car coming towards you with bright headlights has the same effect.

[LUK3H]

but think about it this way, if the light has been shone in your face the headlights are set up too high, if you had a halogen bulb shone in your face it would do the same. If the headlights are brighn and aimed correctly you should have no problems

[djrem]

but think about it this way, if the light has been shone in your face the headlights are set up too high, if you had a halogen bulb shone in your face it would do the same. If the headlights are brighn and aimed correctly you should have no problems

Wrong.
Please read the legislation.

I am still waiting on a reply from the DFT.

[TU-Tuning]

The legislastions all fair and good but as has been given in many examples there really is no extra glare. The legislations may state one thing but the truth is another matter. Set them up correctly and there is no glare.

[Shak]

i'm thinking brighter light means you pupil is gonna contract further, making it more difficult to see the dark area (road) behind the lights. it's easier to see behind them where ambient light is present but on country roads with more turns and undulations i don't care how fast the auto leveling works it's not gonna stop you getting blinded.

[TU-Tuning]

If you look directly into them yeah, theres no glar so if you dont actually look at em your fine. If your driving along looking directly at peoples headlights youve only got yourself to blame

[liam46]

angel eyes are projectors aint they??

Couldnt you get a glass front made up so it doesnt melt it?

I will be getting some soon for my standard mk2 headlights, if i get told of for them i sell them, basically...

I tried this months ago for a looong time but it doesn't work. :(
Also the angel eye ring itself gets too hot.

[djrem]

Angel Eyes are LEDs not HID.

[ally-vts]

ive got 10k HID's, illegal to start with, and there on a saxo.. do i care? not really. been pulled by traffics many times and never a word mentioned..

[Shak]

If you look directly into them yeah, theres no glar so if you dont actually look at em your fine. If your driving along looking directly at peoples headlights youve only got yourself to blame

you don't have to look directly into it for it to happen. i'm trying to look for the road and it just so happens oncoming car are right next to where i'm looking. it' nothing to do with glare just pure bright light. it's basically like having an arc welder in your headlight, that's what they are an arc of electricity and it's not just aftermarket kits factory ones are too bright too. brighter lights might make it easier for you to see but at the expense of other driver, same goes for 'safe' cars like range rovers, you'll be ok in your tank, just a shame about the dead guy in the other car. stop trying to justify hid's there a nuisance, i know i'm not the only person with this opinion.

[djrem]

Just been emailed back from the Transport Technology and Standards
Here it is:

Dear Mr Kingston

The information sheet on our website is the Department’s view because the Department for Transport cannot provide an authoritative interpretation of the law; that is a matter for the courts. You should obtain expert legal advice if you intend to use an HID conversion kit.

The Road Vehicles Lighting Regulations 1989 can be read on the internet at: http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si1989/Uksi_19891796_en_1.htm


The Road Vehicle Lighting Regulations 1989 require headlamps to have an approval mark to show compliance with the relevant European legislation (see Schedule 4 of the RVLR). A lamp that is designed for use with a filament bulb will be approved to the specific regulation for these lamps, e.g. UNECE Regulation 112.

Paragraph 14 of part II of the regulations states:

Filament lamps
14.—(1) Where a motor vehicle first used on or after 1st April 1986 or any trailer manufactured on or after 1st October 1985 is equipped with any lamp of a type that is required by any Schedule to these Regulations to be marked with an approval mark, no filament lamp other than a filament lamp referred to in the Designation of Approval Marks Regulations in-
(a) regulation 4 and Schedule 2, items 2 or 2A, 8, 20, 37 or 37A; or

(b) regulation 5 and Schedule 4, item 18, shall be fitted to any such lamp.

This effectively means that only approved filament bulbs may be fitted to a lamp designed and approved for use with filament light sources. A HID light source is not a filament bulb and therefore cannot be used in a halogen lamp.

The above basically prohibits the use of HID conversion kits, whether or not headlamp cleaners or automatic levelling are fitted.

As stated in the factsheet, the only legal way to convert a vehicle to HID is to remove the existing lamp units (by lamp unit I mean the entire lamp including reflectors, lenses etc. not just the bulb) and replacing it with a lamp unit that has an approval mark to show it was approved for use with HID light sources, in this case UNECE Regulation 98.

Once this is done there is then the issue of headlamp cleaners and automatic levelling. The RVLR require that headlamps should not be used so as to cause undue dazzle or discomfort to other persons using the road, Part III Para 27. Due to the high intensity of HID lights, they will cause dazzle if dirt accumulates on the lens or they become mis-aimed under different loading conditions. In our view the only way of preventing dazzle, and so complying with the regulations, is to fit automatic headlamp levelling and headlamp washers. This is already the accepted approach in European regulations, see UNECE Regulation 48.

Finally, there are good safety reasons not to put a HID light source into a lamp designed for halogen bulbs. Recent tests carried out by the Department on two such kits showed that, although they produced a beam pattern that might pass the visual MOT test, the actual light intensity at specific points in the beam pattern that are controlled to minimise dazzle exceeded the minimum allowable values by a considerable margin. In addition these lights tended to put too much light directly in front of the vehicle rather than "throwing" it down the road where it is needed. This will tend to draw the driver’s eye away from the distant road scene and give them less time to react to obstacles in the road.

Yours sincerely

Jillian Smith
DfT – Transport Technology and Standards

[TU-Tuning]

Fair play they are illegal. But my point still stands dude, in the real world, if someone takes the effort to set em up properly you wont get any grief from the police and you certainly wont be blinding people. Its nice to know the firm details on these once and for all though

[djrem]

Fair play they are illegal. But my point still stands dude, in the real world, if someone takes the effort to set em up properly you wont get any grief from the police and you certainly wont be blinding people. Its nice to know the firm details on these once and for all though

I agree with your principle.
But too many people fit headlights then think "hmmm, adjusting them means taking the bumper back off, removing the light, adjusting, re-fitting, testing and repeating."

Which means the lazy ruin it for the minority that do it properly.

[smiith]

tbf, i had them, and got away with it all the time i had the saxo, i didnt care they are illegal, think how many people have bald tyres on the road, how many people speed, how many people havnt insured any mod at all on there car... its how the world works, no one plays by all the rules, and the police cant make sure they can.

I got stopped by T5's who after i bullshitted them they were DOT (department of transportation) aproved, they said fair enough and let me on my way, not even local bobbys either