opinions on brakes please

[saxotourdecorse]

i did a trackday and the brakes were shit so i am thinking....

i think i will buy new from demon tweeks as i need them sortin for trackday season :)

front....
standard calipers as i am poor
tarox sport japan discs x 2 - £100
mintex m1144 pads x 2 - £50
goodrich braided lines x 2 - £50.
already have halfords dot 5.1.

rear.....
leave it all standard - i guess this is best to stop lock ups etc for when i uprate the calipers on the front.

i will need to change .... possibly all the standard parts so how much would a garage charge to fit and buy because i cba.....

4 standard calipers
2 rear discs
2 rear pads.

should i run this setup?

cheers dudes

[AlexB]

leave the rears alone yes
fronts mintex pads are fine and the tarox discs are good

but at 161bhp the 247mm brakes simply wont cut it imo

save some pennies and get something bigger ie 283mm setup off a gti6/berlingo van

with mintex ect it will vastly outperform the 247s

[DanT]

i did a trackday and the brakes were shit so i am thinking....

I am not surprised ;)

i think i will buy new from demon tweeks as i need them sortin for trackday season :)

Try somewhere like euro performance or kam racing, they are cheaper.


front....
standard calipers as i am poor
tarox sport japan discs x 2 - £100
mintex m1144 pads x 2 - £50
goodrich braided lines x 2 - £50.
already have halfords dot 5.1.

For that money you can buy a 266/283mm set up and will be far better than oem size replacement shite.

The pads you have listed are still worth buying though.


i will need to change .... possibly all the standard parts so how much would a garage charge to fit and buy because i cba.....

4 standard calipers
2 rear discs
2 rear pads.


266/283mm setup is your freind, forget replacing standard parts of the oem braking setup, they are very bad.........as you found out.


should i run this setup?

No - Buy yourself an upgraded 266/283mm setup and braided lines if you can afford it they are well worth it.

[saxotourdecorse]

how much would we be looking at for uprated calipers then?

[AlexB]

50 quid for a set of calipers is about the going rate

[DanT]

how much would we be looking at for uprated calipers then?

Well put it this way, i payed £30 for my 206 gti calipers, carriers, new disks and new pads and i tell you they are probably one of the best mods i have done.

In reality, you wont get it that cheap, i got very lucky on ebay. You can buy the 266mm setup for around £50-100 usually depending on condition and a 283mm one for slightly more than that.

[saxotourdecorse]

for what ones, do you need spacers for gti-6's for example, or could i just swap standard calipers for those. like a straight swap. should i leave the rear standard?

[saxotourdecorse]

what would i need to change for a 266 setup, would probs bin the discs and pads and just use the calipers

[DanT]

you will need to grind part of the carrier on both setups. Some of the 206 gti ones do go on without any grinding i did hear though however it is easy and i did have to grind a small chunk off my carriers but it really is easy stuff. Becomes obvious where you need to grind when you try and fit them on. It will foul against the strut.

Leave the rear pretty much standard, maybe replace the pads for some better ones.

[DanT]

what would i need to change for a 266 setup, would probs bin the discs and pads and just use the calipers

You will need to use the 266mm disks, buy some new ones though dont use old tat from the car you get them off if i was you.

[saxotourdecorse]

nice one dude. is anyone selling any calipers by any chance?

[DanT]

someone in the for sale section is, but he wants £120 for them and £140 posted and tbh you can do better than that.

[stinkycheese]

http://www.saxperience.com/forum/showthread.php?t=207747 may help

[swampy]

nice one dude. is anyone selling any calipers by any chance?

no but i can do you a four line set of braided lines for less than the deom tweeks price you quote

£45 for four lines to fit standered calipers
£47 for four lines to fit anything up to 283mm ones

or if you just want fronts
£25 standered
£27 longer length

many people on here and 106oc have fitted the lines i supply and all agree the price and quality is spot on

[dannygti]

no but i can do you a four line set of braided lines for less than the deom tweeks price you quote

£45 for four lines to fit standered calipers
£47 for four lines to fit anything up to 283mm ones

or if you just want fronts
£25 standered
£27 longer length

many people on here and 106oc have fitted the lines i supply and all agree the price and quality is spot on

swampy can you get just rears? can you pm me a price please.


about the brakes... if its a track car then carbonne lorraine pads are someting to look into.

[razza987]

As an example, I picked up a pair of 306 XSi calipers (266mm) for £20 from a breakers :)

[saxotourdecorse]

no but i can do you a four line set of braided lines for less than the deom tweeks price you quote

£45 for four lines to fit standered calipers
£47 for four lines to fit anything up to 283mm ones

or if you just want fronts
£25 standered
£27 longer length

many people on here and 106oc have fitted the lines i supply and all agree the price and quality is spot on

my cousin is sponsored by demons so can get them cheap but thanks anyway bud...


i just really cant be arsed with anythin that has to be manufactured to fit, my main problem was brake fade, after 4 laps they were grabbin. the 247mm stoppin power wasnt bad on uprated discs. i think lines and fluid would change it totally, does anyone run the 247 setup on a track car?

[Ryan]

nope most upgrade due the the 247 being shite :P

just get some 266 calipers and go from there, alot better set up

[KamRacing]

i've run 247mm setup on a track car, non vented as they were the lightest i could find.. the way to make it work well was just to make the brake setup cope with the increased heat

some quality brake fluid and some decent fast road / mild race pads should do the trick
duct some cold air onto the brakes also

[saxotourdecorse]

how does the 19mm make so much difference if you uprate discs pads lines..... surely they are alot heavier....283mm especially = more understeer etc etc

[bakkipouch]

get some 266mm brakes they sit under 14inch wheels with no spaces etc..

check my sig lol ;)

[saxotourdecorse]

have you used them on track-- do they lock the rears -- drop ya price and i will take them off ya ;)

[saxotourdecorse]

kam or ryan - do you use a standard setup on the rear because the main task of braking is to make sure you dont lock up. so have you also altered bias valves etc???
im on a tight budget so i think i will jus uprate my 247's but they heat up like mad, im thinking fluid and red stuff, or m1144 will help a big deal as am i running standard everythin on the front at the mo :)

[dannygti]

you can alter the rear bias with the rear brake load compensator.

dont use redstuff, its shit...
get mintex 1144 or try the carbonne lorraine pads.

also, do you want to skimp on one of the most important part of the car?

[saxokid100]

kam or ryan - do you use a standard setup on the rear because the main task of braking is to make sure you dont lock up. so have you also altered bias valves etc???
im on a tight budget so i think i will jus uprate my 247's but they heat up like mad, im thinking fluid and red stuff, or m1144 will help a big deal as am i running standard everythin on the front at the mo :)

Take it you spend alot of time breaken on the track??:fcuk::y:

[razza987]

how does the 19mm make so much difference if you uprate discs pads lines..... surely they are alot heavier....283mm especially = more understeer etc etc
Larger diameter means more torque, making the brakes feel more "powerful".
Larger diameter means more surface area to dissipate heat, therefore reducing fade.
Yes, they are heavier, but that disadvantage will be massively outweighed by the increased braking performance.
More understeer? You won't even notice.
HTH,
Raz :y:

[saxotourdecorse]

Take it you spend alot of time breaken on the track??:fcuk::y:

u certainly do when you got the horses i got bro ;) and oulton is a technical shithouse to be fair.

[saxotourdecorse]

how much are loarraine compared to m1144.... student budget ;)

[swampy]

my cousin is sponsored by demons so can get them cheap but thanks anyway bud...



well the price you quote in first thread isnt that cheap
not when you need to add vat and carriage if required on top

my price includes both:afro::A:

[KamRacing]

Larger diameter means more torque, making the brakes feel more "powerful".
Larger diameter means more surface area to dissipate heat, therefore reducing fade.
Yes, they are heavier, but that disadvantage will be massively outweighed by the increased braking performance.
More understeer? You won't even notice.
HTH,
Raz :y:

when you say braking performance you are talking about heat right?

There are other ways to help without adding more unspring weight.

Its not so much an increase in oversteer that is the effect of this weight but a dulling of the steering response and feel.

[KamRacing]

Larger diameter means more torque, making the brakes feel more "powerful".
Larger diameter means more surface area to dissipate heat, therefore reducing fade.
Yes, they are heavier, but that disadvantage will be massively outweighed by the increased braking performance.
More understeer? You won't even notice.
HTH,
Raz :y:

Larger diameter changes the effort at the pedal not the wheel. You will be able to apply the same stopping force with less pedal movement which convinces 99% of the world that you are stopping quicker.

The only way a brake setup can provide shorter stopping distances is if the co-efficient of friction is changed between the tyre and the road surface.
Basically you need either a change of tyre or a grippy tarmac compound.
Now a grippy slick tyre can provide more friction than you can apply with a standard setup so bigger can be a benefit, but generally the only advantage of a big brake conversion is heat dissipation and (with multiple pot calipers, improved pedal feel due to less flexing and pressure being applied from both sides of the disk.)

There are plenty of race cars running standard type disks and pads that travel at far faster speeds than you lot. The way they cope is with good ducting, and proper race pads. At your disadvantage you have interiors which can increase overall weight and also weight transfer to the front wheels. This can work your brakes harder than a lightweight race car.

For your road car moving to a big brake setup can be useful as you can keep a standard pad cooler due to the bigger heat dissipation, but there is the weight penalty. There are pads like the Carbone Lorraine RC5's which are designed to run from cold yet not fade at high temperature. The metallic composite material does not compress under pressure so you get a better pedal feel as a bonus. The friction co-efficient of the brake pad is far superior to standard OEM pads and I am able to apply maximum braking force quicker.
I run these on my BMW road car and work them seriously hard and with a 1500kg car I have yet to cook them.

I have had big brake conversions using standard type calipers and standard pads and ultimately always been disappointed at the difference in handling due to the effect of unsprung weight. Now I always go for the best pads I can get for the job before moving to a bigger and ultimately heavier setup.

Kev

[KamRacing]

how much are loarraine compared to m1144.... student budget ;)

Carbone Lorraine are more expensive, but they offer the advantages of a trackday pad without any negatives.

The M1144's work from cold but are at their best at 200 degrees and start to overheat at about 400 degrees
The M1155's work from about 300 degrees, are at their best at 400 degrees but tail off in performance at about 500 degrees

The Carbone Lorraine RC5 work from cold, are at their best from 400 - 800 degrees and they will still perform as well at 1000 degrees as they did at cold.

The Carbone Lorraine race compounds then offer a co-efficient of friction way higher than the Mintex M-series pads

http://www.kamracing.co.uk/citroen-saxo-1/brakes-23/brake-pads-31/

Kev

[KamRacing]

kam or ryan - do you use a standard setup on the rear because the main task of braking is to make sure you dont lock up. so have you also altered bias valves etc???
im on a tight budget so i think i will jus uprate my 247's but they heat up like mad, im thinking fluid and red stuff, or m1144 will help a big deal as am i running standard everythin on the front at the mo :)

the front does the majority of the braking so those are the disks where you will usually experience fade. I used to run drums on the back of the 205! (I'd previously modded the rear beam for rear coilovers and I couldn't be bothered to do the same for a disk beam was good enough)

To cope with the heat on the front I used braided hoses, castol super Dot 4 brake fluid, a race ferodo pads (similar spec to the M1144s) - never had any fade at all

I also had very good suspension and tyres which does reduce the need to brake as much, and it was pretty stripped out.

[spacehopper]

sorry to thread hijack but what would you recommend putting on a 1.1 to make the braking better?

id have better luck cutting a hole in the floor and putting my feet on the road ala fred flintstone at the moment!!

[swampy]

after speaking to the manufactures of carbon lorraine pads at the autosport show i was told they are developing a few new compounds to be introduced at the back end of the year that are more road biased

[KamRacing]

sorry to thread hijack but what would you recommend putting on a 1.1 to make the braking better?

id have better luck cutting a hole in the floor and putting my feet on the road ala fred flintstone at the moment!!

first make sure everything is in good working order. Would change the brake fluid if its been in the car a while.

Then make sure you have plenty of disk / pad left

then take a look at the quality of your tyres and the depth of tread

[spacehopper]

looks like im ordering a bleed kit then! =) theres plenty of life left in the discs and pads i changed them not long back along with the rear shoes

thanks Kamracing

[razza987]

Larger diameter changes the effort at the pedal not the wheel. You will be able to apply the same stopping force with less pedal movement which convinces 99% of the world that you are stopping quicker.

The only way a brake setup can provide shorter stopping distances is if the co-efficient of friction is changed between the tyre and the road surface.
Basically you need either a change of tyre or a grippy tarmac compound.
Now a grippy slick tyre can provide more friction than you can apply with a standard setup so bigger can be a benefit, but generally the only advantage of a big brake conversion is heat dissipation and (with multiple pot calipers, improved pedal feel due to less flexing and pressure being applied from both sides of the disk.)

There are plenty of race cars running standard type disks and pads that travel at far faster speeds than you lot. The way they cope is with good ducting, and proper race pads. At your disadvantage you have interiors which can increase overall weight and also weight transfer to the front wheels. This can work your brakes harder than a lightweight race car.

For your road car moving to a big brake setup can be useful as you can keep a standard pad cooler due to the bigger heat dissipation, but there is the weight penalty. There are pads like the Carbone Lorraine RC5's which are designed to run from cold yet not fade at high temperature. The metallic composite material does not compress under pressure so you get a better pedal feel as a bonus. The friction co-efficient of the brake pad is far superior to standard OEM pads and I am able to apply maximum braking force quicker.
I run these on my BMW road car and work them seriously hard and with a 1500kg car I have yet to cook them.

I have had big brake conversions using standard type calipers and standard pads and ultimately always been disappointed at the difference in handling due to the effect of unsprung weight. Now I always go for the best pads I can get for the job before moving to a bigger and ultimately heavier setup.

Kev
Hi Kam, nice informative post :y:
I was generalising with my post, I never said "you will stop quicker", I said "increased braking performance". I will try to be more specific in future ;)

As an aside, with my Scimitar race car I had to increase the disc size, as they are only 223mm dia standard and just couldn't handle the heat of repeated track work. I made up my own big disc upgrade, using standard calipers (Metro 4-pots) with a spacer bracket, Rover 825 285mm discs machined down to 276mm to clear the wheels and Mintex race pads, plus cooling ducts. I don't have problems with fade anymore...
Raz :)

[Anthony]

So what kam is actually saying is, smaller brakes can perform just as well as these bigger setups provided you invest in some top notch pads, and cooling ducts or what ever? Without the problems of it affecting handling and unbalanced weight etc.

[KamRacing]

Hi Kam, nice informative post :y:
I was generalising with my post, I never said "you will stop quicker", I said "increased braking performance". I will try to be more specific in future ;)

As an aside, with my Scimitar race car I had to increase the disc size, as they are only 223mm dia standard and just couldn't handle the heat of repeated track work. I made up my own big disc upgrade, using standard calipers (Metro 4-pots) with a spacer bracket, Rover 825 285mm discs machined down to 276mm to clear the wheels and Mintex race pads, plus cooling ducts. I don't have problems with fade anymore...
Raz :)

It was'nt a specific dig at you :D
Its just brakes are a particular favorite of mine and I really hate the way many brake suppliers advertise performance brakes, under misleading claims that the manufacturers are not even making.
Its very hard to convince many people that better performing brakes is mostly referring to heat dissipation.
Theres two things I evaluate with the brakes once the suspension and chassis are sorted (which should be done first!). Can you lock up the brakes? and am I suffering from fade?

If you cannot lock up the brakes then you are not able to provide enough force so moving the caliper away from the fulcrum will help. This mostly happens when cars move to full slicks as the friction increases between road and tyre and you basically cannot put enough force through the pedal to apply maximum braking.
If you can lock up the brakes the sizing is right.

If you are suffering from fade then its really a case of looking at why. First I look at the pad compound as this is the main issue, then look at the disk size to see whether the disks heat capacity is too low. Big disks weigh a lot so keeping these as small as you can will see lots of benefits so if you can run ducts then its all to your advantage. Even your wheel choice will make a big difference as the alloy can act as a massive heat sink and some will give a better airflow than others (like steelies)

I guess there is more physics to brakes than people tend to realise and its a little hard to get your head round it sometimes.

kev

[KamRacing]

So what kam is actually saying is, smaller brakes can perform just as well as these bigger setups provided you invest in some top notch pads, and cooling ducts or what ever? Without the problems of it affecting handling and unbalanced weight etc.

I've highlighted the most important word lol
Brakes are not as 'bolt on' as people think and you really have to think about what setup is right for each individual car.