Clio 172 vs clio 1.2 on track ... A lesson!

[sir_dave]

Thought this may interest a few people on here tbh, especially as everyone is so keen on building 'track' cars and supercharging/turboing everything with 4 wheels these days.

I have always been a firm believer in handling & driver tuition as a way of going faster on track, something that usually manages to fall on deaf on most forums/clubs i frequent...many people dont realise that power is nothing without control & ability.

This video proves this point nicely i feel.

A Clio 172 with the usual breathing mods, vs a Clio 1.2 with proper coilovers, a decent setup & a 'well trained/talented' driver behind the wheel.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T_M9dC3cwBQ

Enjoy :y:

[Bickerton]

Wish my wifes 1.2 clio accelerated that fast :(

[SaxoMuffin]

It does prove a point but to be brutally honest a lot of people on this forum that are going for "track cars" with a lot of power, are in my eyes not even going to be used on track but to beat all there mates in there corsa's etc... on the road!

I know there are a few guys on here that are genuinely using their cars on track, but the amount of nonsense posted in the performance section....Wow.


Rant over...

[Ashleyp]

It does prove a point but to be brutally honest a lot of people on this forum that are going for "track cars" with a lot of power, are in my eyes not even going to be used on track but to beat all there mates in there corsa's etc... on the road!

I know there are a few guys on here that are genuinely using their cars on track, but the amount of nonsense posted in the performance section....Wow.


Rant over...

i agree

most people on here want big figures just to brag to their mates

dont get me wrong, i'd like a high spec engine, but a standard vts with some half decent handling mod's will do me fine on track whilst i learn to use it properly :)

[frankie]

track looks a little ghetto lol

[SaxoMuffin]

i agree

most people on here want big figures just to brag to their mates

dont get me wrong, i'd like a high spec engine, but a standard vts with some half decent handling mod's will do me fine on track whilst i learn to use it properly :)

Exactly I think a lot of people presume because its a saxo they need to have it at a major spec just to be on track when its not the case, get the handling right and get used to the car first.... :homme:

[Bickerton]

I think alot of people on here focus mainly on their suspension than the engines tho?

[craig180]

As I have no audio on my work PC which car was which???

I remember a member on her (scottn) who had a well set up 1.1 and a bit of karting/racing experience who was pwning VTRs at Trax 2007

[sir_dave]

As I have no audio on my work PC which car was which???

I remember a member on her (scottn) who had a well set up 1.1 and a bit of karting/racing experience who was pwning VTRs at Trax 2007

1.2 is the one in front ...

The point im trying to make is that people always forget that amazing handling/power/brakes, etc are absolutely no use whatsoever if you cant drive, so tuition should come before all the above - imho of course ;)

[KamRacing]

Our 1.4 205 very well on track with a killer 75bhp. With about £4.5K of suspension and tyres and there was not really anything faster on lap times when it went out round combe and silverstone. Was a stripped out car and ran standard brakes and pads. Hard to overtake though as you are not allowed to outbrake people on trackdays and more powerful cars had advantages on the straights but it could brake harder than most and corner much faster. Still it could have done with about double the horsepower to be mindblowing...next evolution of that car is my racecar as we transferred the suspension and that should have about 190bhp...
Theres certainly a balance between chassis and engine mods needed.

[AlexR]

You only need the power if you lose the speed ;)

I've known this forever lol Used to be as fast A-B in my 1.0 AX as in my VTS. Much lighter car, much faster around tight back roads.

[mardon]

Haha that was a great little vid. That track was a little budget though!

[KamRacing]

The track was very tight so a good handling car is flattered. On a more open track with more flowing corners I'd imagine the 172 would be able to stretch its legs a little more

[MrAdaam]

Good video, and proves quite a good point but people are always going to want to have higher figures than there mates for bragging rights imo.

[Ashleyp]

I think alot of people on here focus mainly on their suspension than the engines tho?

i wouldnt agree really

other than the likes of danny, JP and a couple of others, theres not many people focusing on a lot of handling mods as opposed to engine mods, IMO of course.

but hey, if people are into big power, than thats their choice :)

[sir_dave]

Good video, and proves quite a good point but people are always going to want to have higher figures than there mates for bragging rights imo.

I think that sums it up perfectly lol ...

However, its far more pleasureable pushing your mates Elises around the 'ring (in your 206 derv) because you have the 'skillz' and they dont ;)

[JamesR]

In my opinion brakes, suspension and lightness are a bigger factor than power. Same as the clutch / gearbox / tyres no point in having loads of power if you can't put it down.

[Russ_16v]

Ah Fred in the Dynacup lol, cracking vid

[johnnyg_vts]

isnt that the slips 'track' lol

[Steve]

once you get up to speed its fine, but on fast circuits you will see the extra power work its magic.

When i was at knock hill round the first section of the track i was leaving most things, but then when it came to going up the hill out the hair pin you could see the extra power coming in with their cars and on they went.

Same at the ring, untill i get to the uphill section most things i over took like imprezas etc start catching me as they have the power to keep the speed up going up the hill.


At silverston i really doubt the 1.2 would see the 172 off tbh.

[Matts-VTR]

Someone take that clio 1.2 and 172 round the nurburgring and see whos giggling then!

sorry but a standard 172 handles much better than a 1.2 ever will unless the 1.2 has spent more than the 172 is probably worth! A 1.2 doesnt even have proper ARB's ffs.

I think its a case of the driver much more than the car in that video, some people have it some people dont simple as.

My vtr can get raped by my mate in his 1.1 metro for christs sake simply because he has grown up doing autograssing and rallycross, i aint got shit on that!

matt

[sir_dave]

I think its a case of the driver much more than the car in that video, some people have it some people dont simple as.

Thats the point :y:

Tuition is the best money you will ever spend on a car if you want to go 'fast' ...

[rey]

Someone take that clio 1.2 and 172 round the nurburgring and see whos giggling then!

sorry but a standard 172 handles much better than a 1.2 ever will unless the 1.2 has spent more than the 172 is probably worth! A 1.2 doesnt even have proper ARB's ffs.

I think its a case of the driver much more than the car in that video, some people have it some people dont simple as.

My vtr can get raped by my mate in his 1.1 metro for christs sake simply because he has grown up doing autograssing and rallycross, i aint got shit on that!

matt

Learn to read:

vs a Clio 1.2 with proper coilovers, a decent setup & a 'well trained/talented' driver behind the wheel.

So essentially, everything you just said above, has happened, and the car is being driven by a guy who knows what he's doing..

[Bickerton]

lol love when people don't see the point, even when it's written down in the first post ;)

[leeroybrown]

Poooooooooooooooooooower!

[Mieran]

I think the fact that a 1.2 ahead of him made him make more mistakes.

If he was ahead I think his lines would have been smoother... who knows.

Btw, there is no room to overtake anyway? :geek:

[TU-Tuning]

Lots of people aim for big power without a clue as to what a powerband is as well...

[raunchz]

Lots of people aim for big power without a clue as to what a powerband is as well...

Does it go around your waist ?

[Mr_X]

The track was very tight so a good handling car is flattered. On a more open track with more flowing corners I'd imagine the 172 would be able to stretch its legs a little more

agreed.

i agree with what you are saying but dont feel the video compliments your point as well as it could.

[KamRacing]

agreed.

i agree with what you are saying but dont feel the video compliments your point as well as it could.


What do you mean? Thats tighter than any race circuit in the UK...as soon as the 172 is on the straight, its right up to the back of the other car, with a track with longer straights i'd expect the 172 to be ahead and stay ahead but get caught up on corners..

[blackie_2k5]

I think alot of people on here focus mainly on their suspension than the engines tho?

i tend to agree with this, the serious track lads have well set out susp and and mix of this and engine tuning

[Ashleyp]

i tend to agree with this, the serious track lads have well set out susp and and mix of this and engine tuning

thats just the track guys though ;) most others just post threads of "how can i turbo my 1.1"

[blackie_2k5]

Does it go around your waist ?

made me lol... however i now have one of these from the xmas food lmao, cain the gym again ftw!!

[Bickerton]

thats just the track guys though ;) most others just post threads of "how can i turbo my 1.1"

Asking questions and doing it are two completly different things, my point was aimed towards people that have specced their car or do track, most of those do suspension first before making a "sick" engine

[titchster]

I can't help thinking that quite a few are missing the point entirely.


Yeah, sure, on a faster track, the 172 would pull away, it's got a hell of a lot more power, so no matter how much faster the 1.2 is through the corners, the 172 is always gonna catch up on the straights.

But the point of the post (and IMO, the video), is, as sir_dave has said, to show that a well driven, good handling car, will hold it's own quite happily in the corners, against a much more powerful car, and that power isn't everything, if you can take the corners quicker. Where's the skill in catching up in the straights? ;)

[JamesR]

To be fair though, the "track" is very bendy, if the straight after the finish line was longer he would have had him. But still good nontheless, where is that "track" anyway? Just looks like a old piece of land with tyres etc lol

[blackie_2k5]

thats just the track guys though ;) most others just post threads of "how can i turbo my 1.1"

my point was for the most part the ppl on here who do want to go on track do spend alot of getting thier susp right before going crazy on their engines, as opposed to those with a a dropped torsion bar and a turbo conversion, my point was aimed at not evryone on here does just want big figures to brag on, the ppl that it matter know what their doing

[blackie_2k5]

Asking questions and doing it are two completly different things, my point was aimed towards people that have specced their car or do track, most of those do suspension first before making a "sick" engine

hear hear, although you beat me to it ;)

[blackie_2k5]

I can't help thinking that quite a few are missing the point entirely.


Yeah, sure, on a faster track, the 172 would pull away, it's got a hell of a lot more power, so no matter how much faster the 1.2 is through the corners, the 172 is always gonna catch up on the straights.

But the point of the post (and IMO, the video), is, as sir_dave has said, to show that a well driven, good handling car, will hold it's own quite happily in the corners, against a much more powerful car, and that power isn't everything, if you can take the corners quicker. Where's the skill in catching up in the straights? ;)

but generally everyone already knows this....the ones who dont dont do track...or do and end up ploughing their cars, we all know its not about power on track thats why saxos do so well compared to other higher power crs you see on track

[kcsaxo]

im sure that 172 was holding back on the long straights, for arguments sake if both cars are hitting the corners in the same gear, then the 172 should have dusted that 1.2 on corner exit regardless of suspension setup.

[titchster]

im sure that 172 was holding back on the long straights, for arguments sake if both cars are hitting the corners in the same gear, then the 172 should have dusted that 1.2 on corner exit regardless of suspension setup.

Not necessarily 'dusted' it on corner exit regardless of setup, because he's still got to get the power down, if the 1.2 can get the power down earlier, he's going to be quicker out of the corner, although obviously on the straights the 172 will catch up.

[kcsaxo]

fair enough dusted is a little exagerrated but from what im observing on the video, the gap is simply not extending between the front car and seems a little suspect. what you mentioned on getting the power down earlier in the 1.2 holds true but the 172 would also have more low end torque to make up for lost time on the throttle me thinks. where the hell is that track coz it looks proper low rent!

[Vinny_VSX]

fair enough dusted is a little exagerrated but from what im observing on the video, the gap is simply not extending between the front car and seems a little suspect. what you mentioned on getting the power down earlier in the 1.2 holds true but the 172 would also have more low end torque to make up for lost time on the throttle me thinks. where the hell is that track coz it looks proper low rent!

It looks like it is where Mjrallying goes "rallying". Sure it is the same track as I reconise it from one of his "rally" videos

[Sparco_Tom]

Ahhh finally something to make the kids listen up.
I ran all last season on about 124bhp, even round fast circuits i have still out paced many quick cars. I ran a good brake setup, good tyres, minimal weight, good suspension setups throughout the year. That was simply enough to cling onto some very fast cars and stay in front of many impressive vehicles.
For example i had a play with a 182 which had been to k-tech for several grands worth of bits including cams and bodies. Fast car shit driver and handling setup and it was atleast 8 tenths a lap slower every lap for 15mins.
I had lots of people asking what engine the car had and what power it was running, nobody could believe its a near standard tu5jp lump.
10years in karts and 4 years in metros, xr2s and the odd test days for ginetta and radical has taught me alot. My driving styles and abilities have matured over the years. I'm not afraid to drive the car on the edge of its and my threshold.

[Matts-VTR]

Learn to read:



So essentially, everything you just said above, has happened, and the car is being driven by a guy who knows what he's doing..

I can read perfectly well thank you and saw exactly what was written in the first post.

And im sure after owning 6 clios including a 172 and a 1.2 i can honestly tell you that any 172 will destroy any 1.2 WHEN DRIVEN PROPERLY!!!

And also in that video it just looks to me like that 1.2 is in the guys way, hence why it appears the 1.2 is leaving the corners faster it is infact because the poor guy in the 172 has to brake like fuck not to go in the back of him!

[Ashleyp]

I can read perfectly well thank you and saw exactly what was written in the first post.

And im sure after owning 6 clios including a 172 and a 1.2 i can honestly tell you that any 172 will destroy any 1.2 WHEN DRIVEN PROPERLY!!!

And also in that video it just looks to me like that 1.2 is in the guys way, hence why it appears the 1.2 is leaving the corners faster it is infact because the poor guy in the 172 has to brake like fuck not to go in the back of him!

thats the point of this thread lol. the 172 isnt being driven properly. the 1.2 is

and the 172 wasnt that close, so i doubt the car's in his way

[sir_dave]

I can't help thinking that quite a few are missing the point entirely.

Yup lol.

But the point of the post (and IMO, the video), is, as sir_dave has said, to show that a well driven, good handling car, will hold it's own quite happily in the corners, against a much more powerful car, and that power isn't everything, if you can take the corners quicker.

+ 1. Amazed at how many people dont get this.

Ahhh finally something to make the kids listen up.


I thought that being old git, i should try to impart some wisdom on the forum ;)

thats the point of this thread lol. the 172 isnt being driven properly. the 1.2 is

Nail. Head. Still amazed at how many people dont get it.

Re: the video, its two very good mates, both cars being driven to the 'best of their ability'.

The point is, the 1.2 driver has more ability, ie he's a race instructor, the 172 driver is just your normal 'car enthusiast', as such he cant make the most of the 172's higher limits & power :y:

[ryanmt]

Try keeping up with something quicker on an open circuit. A skyline could go round the coppice corner at Donnington in first gear but with that nice long straight its gonna pull away nicely on a 130bhp ax. Only to hold everything up when he bricks it at the esses.

Happend a few times to me where ive had to slow off into the corners to avoid smashing into the car infront only for it to shoot off down the next straight. Its not all about power, but its not all about handling either! A good mixture of both is what you want.

[Matts-VTR]

Yup lol.



+ 1. Amazed at how many people dont get this.



I thought that being old git, i should try to impart some wisdom on the forum ;)



Nail. Head. Still amazed at how many people dont get it.

Re: the video, its two very good mates, both cars being driven to the 'best of their ability'.

The point is, the 1.2 driver has more ability, ie he's a race instructor, the 172 driver is just your normal 'car enthusiast', as such he cant make the most of the 172's higher limits & power :y:

I was agreeing with your point in my first post but someone couldnt see that :wall:

ok to solve argument = 'Power is Nothing without Control'

matt

[-Nick]

Love the "'s Vince :P

[CHIP]

You have a very valid point Sir Dave, control and handling are always going to be the most important thing when it comes to driving.

And yes, people are right saying that half the folk's with suspension upgrade's and stripped interior's won't go on track.

Like me for example. I may or may not decide to do a trackday. I can't make my mind up wether to or not at the minute. I don't want to end up like Alex and roll/crash my car on track. I have far too much money and time put into my car. And it's not just my capability's on track i'm questioning, it's other's. You can't 100% say what the person in front or behind is going to do.

Okay, so i plan on making my car handle and stop better and want to get it to the 120/130bhp mark. And yes, i've stripped it out. So technically i should use it on the track as some people would deem it 'pointless' with the choice of mod's i've done. But at the end of the day it's my car.
I wanted something i was going to enjoy building and most importantly enjoy driving :) And i do.