Thicker torsion bars, where to buy? Potential group buy? Discuss

[willsy]

Thought id fire up this thread, its bound to crop up at some point.

Seems to be quite a few people now into their coilover setups whether it be AST's, Custom or otherwise and are building up very very good stiff front end suspension.

There does seem to be very few in comparision who have got round to upgrading the torsion bars to get the rear up to scratch and complete the build.

Id put money on it that the high cost is a big put-off with Pugsport items currently in excess of £450.


So really this thread is initially open to suggestions:


Are pugsports the only decent ones out there?
Who is considering upgrading in the near future?
For the benefit of those not so clued up what 'mm' would match which front spring 'lb rate'?
Would anyone be interested in a group buy?
What sort of price are people willing to pay?



We'll start off with a general discussion anyway, see how it goes

[Mochachino]

The only ones i know available at the moment are PugSports and Spoox. Kam used to sell their own aswell i think? IM Axles Also looking into getting some Designed and made but thats still in early stages.

Il be looking to upgrade aswell to match the front at 23mm TBars. So yes GroupBuy is definatly considered. Price wize, well there isnt a great deal of places to buy from.

Breif Torsion Bar Ratings to the front (these aint specific so maybe 5/10lb's out etc)

Front LB to Rear Torsion Bars

180-225lb = 21mm Torsion Bars
225-275lb = 22mm Torsion Bars
275-325lb = 23mm Torsion Bars

Though in Europe some use over 23mm torsion Bars, and also use 23mm Torsion Bars with lower Lb on the Front. Guess its all personal preference.
Also can use 21mm Bars up to 325lb if you wanted, as alot of poeple are running Standard Bars with 300lb atm and dont mind the handling of it.

[willsy]

As alot of poeple are running Standard Bars with 300lb atm and dont mind the handling of it.

Definately true, there is quite alot of people now with very very good front end suspension,

There isnt much information about with regards to the benefits of thicker torsion bars in relation to how exactly the handling is improves, and what it does to the behavioural characteristics when driving.

If anyone really clued up can write some accurate info with regards to behaviour of the rear and handling thatll help alot i think :)

[Mochachino]

I did have some stuff saved somewhere, il try and dig it out!

EDIT: Found some stuff here, also includes what dampers to match with.

http://www.saxperience.com/forum/showthread.php?t=239795&highlight=torsion

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Sounds like they have a similar effect as thicker rear ARBs with turn in etc.

http://www.saxperience.com/forum/showpost.php?p=3137180&postcount=9

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Also seems like your meant to build your car around the torsion bars? (so would be a good palce to start with this group buy)

http://www.saxperience.com/forum/showpost.php?p=3605225&postcount=4

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No facts about the true characteristics of thicker bars though or what theyre supposed to induce. Only personal experience from experimenting. Someone will know the behaviour of them though :p

[LEE_VTR1]

pugsports are the only way to go imo as far as bars are concerned as all these other companys who make bars may not be using the correct spring steel (material torsion bars are made from) pugsports are the original bars really and are proven.

it would suck if the bar from another company was to say fracture under serious stress, the chances of this happening mind are very very slim and I'm sure all companys have done vast testing and stuff but I'd personally prefer to go with ones that are proven

[LEE_VTR1]

also matt check on service box see how much brand new standard bars cost bet there not much cheaper than the pugsports at 450 for any size

[willsy]

also matt check on service box see how much brand new standard bars cost bet there not much cheaper than the pugsports at 450 for any size

Ill check now. :)

[willsy]

Cost of 19mm standard torsion bars are £90.75 each which includes the VAT.

Price is same on Peugeot and Citroen service parts

[KamRacing]

I can get them under £300 I believe from a supplier that makes them for stockhatch cars
If people give me an idea of how many I can get a price.

[KamRacing]

I did have some stuff saved somewhere, il try and dig it out!

EDIT: Found some stuff here, also includes what dampers to match with.

http://www.saxperience.com/forum/showthread.php?t=239795&highlight=torsion

---

Sounds like they have a similar effect as thicker rear ARBs with turn in etc.

http://www.saxperience.com/forum/showpost.php?p=3137180&postcount=9

---

Also seems like your meant to build your car around the torsion bars? (so would be a good palce to start with this group buy)

http://www.saxperience.com/forum/showpost.php?p=3605225&postcount=4

---

No facts about the true characteristics of thicker bars though or what theyre supposed to induce. Only personal experience from experimenting. Someone will know the behaviour of them though :p

The torsion bar is a straight spring basically.
As you stiffen up your suspension with a lowering kit you dial in more understeer. To regain the standard balance or dial out the understeer for a more neutral handling car then you need to increase the rear spring rate.
The antirollbars are similar but as you go stiffer you make the suspension less independant (left to right)

Kev

[Aron]

That guide that DB has put up was for pugsports so would not match other brands. Depending who makes them depends on what rates they are at.

I would stick with pugsports as they are proven, the shenpar(sp), ebay have all failed a number of times.

Remember the guide for poundage is as they say, a GUIDE. Its what some put together to put the bars in a certain poundage range. You could happily use 23mm with low poundage and the other way round with 19mm bars with 300lb springs.

Would stay away from IM as they have proved a number of times they are just normal refurb parts not to a high standard like how you need performance TB's

[LEE_VTR1]

I can report on behaviour after Sunday as getting my new beam that has 23mm bars already fitted so I'm gunna slap that on and go for an epic drive!!

[willsy]

The torsion bar is a straight spring basically.
As you stiffen up your suspension with a lowering kit you dial in more understeer. To regain the standard balance or dial out the understeer for a more neutral handling car then you need to increase the rear spring rate.
The antirollbars are similar but as you go stiffer you make the suspension less independant (left to right)

Kev

Cheers Kev :y:

Really happy with the front of mine now but i can tell understeer is not ideal.

Initially based on info and discussions so far ill be looking for 22mm bars, will be using the blue cap billie group N's. I understand that this is their limit too thickness wise. The front is pretty much on the limit too with the Billie group N fronts.

I can report on behaviour after Sunday as getting my new beam that has 23mm bars already fitted so I'm gunna slap that on and go for an epic drive!!

That drive is going to be full of insanity :) Im off on sunday, i need to be witness to it

[saxostuart]

if the price was right i would be intrested....on the subject of the front...has anyone got any components for a good hard setup at the front lol?

[jpsaxo]

You can get the ebay ones but who knows how they are made up, the process gone into making them etc.

Your only safe bet is the pugsport ones imho!

Oh and they rock mate, i cant really describe how because both my front and rear suspension was upgraded at the same time, the car just feels alot better balenced, feels alot more "neutral" and planted!

[misulko]

Front LB to Rear Torsion Bars
180-225lb = 21mm Torsion Bars
225-275lb = 22mm Torsion Bars
275-325lb = 23mm Torsion Bars

So will be for 155 lbs at front,stock 19 mm torsion bar and ARB suficient enough?

[willsy]

So will be for 155 lbs at front,stock 19 mm torsion bar and ARB suficient enough?

Yep no need to change for the setup that you've got.

[AndySAXO]

i will be very intrested in this, but not right this mins a few months down the line!

i would be looking at 22mm ones!

andy

[willsy]

i will be very intrested in this, but not right this mins a few months down the line!

i would be looking at 22mm ones!

andy

Few months time (3 perhaps?) should be do-able for anyone seriously interested i rekon

[AndySAXO]

that suit me fine that, i be in, pending the price that is offerd.

[willsy]

that suit me fine that, i be in, pending the price that is offerd.

I posted in GMC's affiliate section, here's what they're able to do for us:

For group buy of 5 sets ,all same size i could offer 15% discount on current pugsport price --what ever that is --with exchange rate changing daily etc ,its hard to keep up sometimes

Current Pugsport prices on GMC website are £467.65 their prices are inclusive of VAT i believe.

So with 15% off its £397.50 (So roughly £400 dependant on any exchange rate fluctuation

[KamRacing]

I know one of the suppliers of the pugsport ones too so could most likely beat that by a little. Bit expensive for just a brand label though but they do look nice as they are powder coated...

Let me know if you are interested and I'll get a couple of prices if I have an idea of numbers. If you want official peugoet sport then fair enough.

Kev

[willsy]

I know one of the suppliers of the pugsport ones too so could most likely beat that by a little. Bit expensive for just a brand label though but they do look nice as they are powder coated...

Let me know if you are interested and I'll get a couple of prices if I have an idea of numbers. If you want official peugoet sport then fair enough.

Kev

Thanks Kev, would definately be worth looking into some prices if you could for us :y:

Would like to think a minimum of 5 will want to buy some. Given that theyre higher priced items then possibly up to 10 people depending on just how good the price is that you could get :)

[VTSTomE]

I would 100% be in for a set of 21s in a couple of months time.

[dannygti]

just so people know, spring steel is spring steel. as far as im aware all the stuff used for motorsport applications will be the same grade. providing its processed in the right way it will be just as good as pugsport stuff. even the pugsport stuff wont be accurate down to the last 5lbs.


i need some sort of timescale before i can commit to buy.

[sexy_gt]

im in for a pair 21's

[willsy]

just so people know, spring steel is spring steel. as far as im aware all the stuff used for motorsport applications will be the same grade. providing its processed in the right way it will be just as good as pugsport stuff. even the pugsport stuff wont be accurate down to the last 5lbs.


i need some sort of timescale before i can commit to buy.

Cheers Danny.

Possible timescale 3 months time? July/Early August perhaps?

Dependant on how long delivery is im assuming you'd definately like to have them before the ring trip :)

[webby]

hey guys i have spoke to somebody who i was told about from saxo_ron who makes bigger torsion bars, ronnie has been running the bigger 21mm bars in his car for at least 4 months that i know of without problem and when i spoke to him about them he said chris at manic motor who fitted the bars for him said they were spot on too.

i found out a bit more info and the bars they are made from spring steel as danny said spring steel is spring steel

they have sold a number of bars and have had no problems.

i have arranged a group buy all i need now is some numbers and people ready to put there money were the mouth is.

the best bit is the price

180.50 per set!

and that is for any size you want.

carrige is on top but im sure that wont be much or you can collect them from them in person in Blaby

let me know what you think.

[sexy_gt]

sounds good but 4 moths testing isnt enough for me. price is very good no one will ever get near that low.

4 moths of what exactly race, rally, odd trackday or road driving ???

[webby]

that is just ronnies experience with them i know he has them longer but just not sure how much longer, he has used the car for road and track.

taken straight form there email to me.

All products have been tried and tested by our individual clients and performance garages.

i personally i'm happy to get my bars form them.

[KamRacing]

I cannot beat that. Best I can get them on a group buy is £240 inc delivery.
Thats from my supplier who makes them for much of the stock hatch racers

Kev

[VTSTomE]

hey guys i have spoke to somebody who i was told about from saxo_ron who makes bigger torsion bars, ronnie has been running the bigger 21mm bars in his car for at least 4 months that i know of without problem and when i spoke to him about them he said chris at manic motor who fitted the bars for him said they were spot on too.

i found out a bit more info and the bars they are made from spring steel as danny said spring steel is spring steel

they have sold a number of bars and have had no problems.

i have arranged a group buy all i need now is some numbers and people ready to put there money were the mouth is.

the best bit is the price

180.50 per set!

and that is for any size you want.

carrige is on top but im sure that wont be much or you can collect them from them in person in Blaby

let me know what you think.

I cannot beat that. Best I can get them on a group buy is £240 inc delivery.
Thats from my supplier who makes them for much of the stock hatch racers

Kev
How many are going to be needed for those prices. Also what timescale are people thinking?

[webby]

5 people for mine. Which should be do-able

I will double check but up to a week.

[Mochachino]

This is how the S1600 Cars are setup:

Front:

313lb Springs at the Front for Asphalt
285lb Springs at the Front for Gravel/Forest
228lb Springs at the Front for Snow
Unsure of dampers
14mm Front ARB For Asphalt
16mm Front ARB For Gravel/Forest

Rear:

21mm Torsion Bars for Asphalt
21.5mm Torsion Bars for Gravel/Forest
19.5mm Torsion Bars for Snow
20.5mm Torsion Bars for Rain
Rear Arb 24mm or 25mm

24mm ARB and 21mm Torsion Bars would be perfect if running a weaker lb spring than 230lb. Standard Bars are fine for between 250lb and 325lb. Also thats all for the S1600 Cars which use different wishbones and beam etc and spaced out, so i guess handling would be different meaning those figures are irrelivant, however looking at the specs for any Saxo less than a S1600 its 21mm Torsion Bars and 24mm ARB with no alterations for different surface or weather conditions:

For a Race Spec Car same as our chassis (wishbone and Beam side of things)

Front:

268lb Springs for Asphalt
285lb Springs for Gravel/Forest
No mention of ARB so guess standard?

Rear:

21mm Torsion Bars
24mm ARB


Obviously personal preference aswell though.

Il be in for 21mm Bars now though.

[willsy]

just so people know, spring steel is spring steel. as far as im aware all the stuff used for motorsport applications will be the same grade. providing its processed in the right way it will be just as good as pugsport stuff. even the pugsport stuff wont be accurate down to the last 5lbs.

Would be interesting to find out more Danny, so could pugsport have just whacked their prices so high initially as there werent any well known alternatives?

Would the ones that webby can get or kamracing realistically be just as good with the 'superior' status that pugsport has simply being a myth?


hey guys i have spoke to somebody who i was told about from saxo_ron who makes bigger torsion bars, ronnie has been running the bigger 21mm bars in his car for at least 4 months that i know of without problem and when i spoke to him about them he said chris at manic motor who fitted the bars for him said they were spot on too.

i found out a bit more info and the bars they are made from spring steel as danny said spring steel is spring steel

they have sold a number of bars and have had no problems.

i have arranged a group buy all i need now is some numbers and people ready to put there money were the mouth is.

the best bit is the price

180.50 per set!

and that is for any size you want.

carrige is on top but im sure that wont be much or you can collect them from them in person in Blaby

let me know what you think.

I cannot beat that. Best I can get them on a group buy is £240 inc delivery.
Thats from my supplier who makes them for much of the stock hatch racers

Kev


Both kamracing and Webby prices are very very good in comparison with the pugsports.

[Bickerton]

Would personally buy from Kam tho as i assume there would be more of a comeback if the worst were to happen?

[Steve]

i ran 200lb springs and 21mm bars with bilstein blue capped group n shocks.

Handled really well, too firm for the road though.

bigger torsion bars are well worth the money.
But be careful when buying them from random places, just because they are 21mm doesnt mean they have the same lb rating as the pugsport 21mm bars.

[Tufty]

Tbh, if i want to see my car go round a track without handling like a boat, then i am going to need to get thicker bars!

Count me in with Kam!

Proven and tested is all i am interested in really.

Will keep an eye on this thread, and see what people go for ...

[webby]

i ran 200lb springs and 21mm bars with bilstein blue capped group n shocks.

Handled really well, too firm for the road though.

bigger torsion bars are well worth the money.
But be careful when buying them from random places, just because they are 21mm doesnt mean they have the same lb rating as the pugsport 21mm bars.

same place ronnie got his from steve.

[Steve]

same place ronnie got his from steve.

guy i was going to get mine from before i got psf.
Seemed really decent quality but iirc they were different lb rating to the psf 21mm bars, cant remember what ron said they were.

My psf 21mm bars were awesome, i remember when i was getting them and people wer saying it would over steer and stuff, what aload of shit.

:afro: