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adamskiTNR
31st October 2010, 22:20
Just a brief description of various suspension angles that I done for a college self assessment, so I thought I would whack it up on here.




1: Castor angle
Castor angle is the angle made between the pivot line and the perpendicular angle to the ground looking at the vehicle side on. The pivot line is taken between the top ball joint and the lower ball joint. If the pivot line meets the ground ahead of the contact patch of the tyre then the angle is considered negative. And if it meets behind it then the castor angle is positive. A negative angle is most common as this helps the wheels self centre and provides stability at speed. A positive angle will be highly unstable and will amplify any steering input in a given direction. And direction changes will be very hard and then very sudden. The faster the vehicle is travelling the greater this effect. Not good for a car. So the below will discuss negative castor angles.
This angle has a big influence on the steering characteristics of the vehicle as the more aggressive the angle the greater the wheels will want to centre themselves. This can be fine tuned to give the driver a higher level of feel through the steering system, but to great and the force needed to counteract the self centring force can lead to uncontrolled turns if the front wheels temporarily lose contact with the ground or the weight is taken off of them, after a bump for instance. This means that damping rates will need to be altered along with the castor angle depending on the track surface conditions or the undulations within the track. This symptom has been seen many times in the late stages of the Nurburgring 24 hr race. The track has many crests during corners and the above has happened, snapping the car into the corner resulting in a accident. The usual case in endurance racing is to reduce the castor angle to make the steering lighter and less sporadic. And the feel is not needed so much as the lap times are not going to be anywhere near 100%, whereas sprint racing for example will need lots of feel for a very short time to give the driver as much feedback as possible to produce the best lap time.
http://img525.imageshack.us/img525/5773/image004ic.jpg

2: Camber angle
Camber angle is the angle between the vertical axis of the vehicle and the vertical axis of the wheel. If the top of the wheel is nearer the centreline of the vehicle than the bottom of the wheel then the angle is considered negative, and the reverse, positive.
Negative camber angle is the most common angle to use on road going and motorsport vehicles. This is because having a negative angle will run the tires on their inner portion of the contact patch when driving in a straight line. This is beneficial in a straight line as it reduces the amount of drag created by the friction of the contact patch as the contact patch is now far smaller. But the maximum tractive force that is able to be applied to the tire is far less as the contact patch is smaller, so acceleration off of the line will be reduced. In cornering the car will transfer weight to the inside of the vehicle an thus roll. As the car rolls the whole width of the contact patch is brought in contact with the road surface, giving lots of grip in the corners. With 0 camber the tire will be moved onto it’s outside edge. Running tires on a small contact patch will wear them far faster than running on the full contact patch however. So if there are lots of straights, lots of camber will wear your tires quickly but will give you higher straight line speed. If you have 0 camber and there are lots of corners you will wear your tires quickly. The amount of camber needed on a race car is a balancing act between the track, the tires, the strategy of the race and the suspension set up itself. If the roll bars are loosened then more camber needs to be run to take the extra tire roll into account. The tire pressures also affect how much the tires will roll onto their outside edge during cornering. The roll centre of the vehicle is very important when discussing camber. A vehicle with a high difference between roll centre and centre of gravity will need more camber to achieve optimum results, and will wear out tires quicker because of it. A pickup truck for example. A formula car on the other hand will not need as much camber to achieve optimum tire contact area during cornering and so will be much nicer on it’s tires comparatively. Tire temperatures are the easiest way to check camber setups for the given track. If the outside third of the tire is hotter than the inside third then too little camber is being run and visa versa. This and tire pressures are used together to create the best setup for tire maintenance.
http://img529.imageshack.us/img529/480/image002zp.jpg

3: KPI SAI
The KPI (King Pin Inclination) or SAI (Steering Axis Inclination) is a similar angle to to castor angle but in a differnet axis. Looking from the front or rear of the vehicle. It is between the vertical axis of the wheel and a line going through The upper and lower ball joint (in the case of SAI) or the angle of the king pin (in the case of KPI). King pins are very rarely seen nowadays but are still found in karting where there is no active suspension.
This angle tilts the steering axis. This has the affect, when turning, of changing the camber of the wheel and the height of the wheel centre. On a road vehicle this change in height is not a massive effect and is mostly taken up by the suspension. But with karts this change in ride height is key to the handling characteristics of the kart. As there is no suspension on a kart the tires are the only thing that all weight roll on. So by inclining this angle as the kart goes into a turn the inside front will increase in height to counteract this roll and the camber produced by this gives maximum traction as the full width of the tire is in contact with the road.
http://img514.imageshack.us/img514/4980/kf4m.jpg




This subject could go on for pages and pages. This is the fundamentals.

raunchz
31st October 2010, 22:39
A question I've always had,

Would it be a bad thing to put say some 30mm spacers on the front of a Saxo? Handling wise? The extra width in track vs moving the alloy 30mm away from the suspension strut?

adamskiTNR
31st October 2010, 22:51
Geometry wise the only problem i can see is that the effects of the SAI will be massively increased. But i don't think it is all the big on a saxo. And the other thing is that it will destroy the bearings. As to turn left the right wheel has to force itself forward in an arc to turn. The spacer amplifies this by a large degree. This is called the scrub radius. Probably 5 times as great at a guess.
The extra track will make it more stable and increase lateral grip by spreading the weight transfer distribution more evenly.
I would say no

jsdvtr
1st November 2010, 13:49
What sort of degree camber is the best? As you could maybe go too far and ruin handling.
I am running about 4 degree negative camber(acourding too toad) using standard struts that have been chopped and rewelded.

The tires are very nearly touching the struts also but with adjustable top mounts like ast this wouldnt be a problem.

adamskiTNR
1st November 2010, 18:18
Take a pyrometer or equivalent to test the tire temps. Once they are hot compare the inner and outer temps to check if the camber is working well.

kristel10589
18th November 2010, 02:28
What sort of degree camber is the best? As you could maybe go too far and ruin handling.
I am running about 4 degree negative camber(acourding too toad) using standard struts that have been chopped and rewelded.

The tires are very nearly touching the struts also but with adjustable top mounts like ast this wouldnt be a problem.

The real idea amount of camber is dependant on a number of things. the main thing is how much body roll and camber change you have.
The idea behind camber, is that when the car is cornering the outside tyre tread becomes 'flat' or at 0 degrees with the surface.

If you go too far, or too the extreme on negative camber, you could possible run on just the outside of the tyre walls. This is unlikely but could happen.

A really good way to tell if your running the correct camber is to check your tyre wear character. If the tyre is wearing equally across the tread then the camber is correct. Although be aware that If the wear isn't equal, it may not be down to just camber, but could be tyre pressure, tracking etc.

HTH

axsaxoman
24th November 2010, 10:11
30mm spacers culd give adeadness to the feel of the steering --ie turn in will not be as good with first small input of steering ,then a bit more and it will turn --wheel bearings will suffer more .
Iwould expect @4 degrees of camber that you will not have full tyre grip in a straight line .
and if sidewalls are stiff --ie drug dealer low profiles ,then you would need to get tyres buffed to 4 degrees to get full contact ,or 2 or 3 track days to scrub them in .

2degrees is plenty for a saxo --the extra technical advantage will not be seen in real terms . but it will look cool!!


.

solvi
24th January 2011, 01:54
how do you camber it?

axsaxoman
28th January 2011, 21:56
alter top strut mounts or alter angle the insert is in the hub,to alter the camber angle
you will not see REAL race tyres with very small sidewalls ,as the tyre needs to flex to keep contact
see F1 tyres
using low profiles you will not be able to run big camber

Dave_P
28th January 2011, 22:30
Better adding castor than camber although you start to encounter issues before long on the saxo/106.

http://i334.photobucket.com/albums/m433/16v_rallye/21032010237.jpg

solvi
29th January 2011, 22:21
there is a lot off people using camber arround -3,6 degrees whith the ajustable top mounts for circuit propose only...

at portugal used to run the "saxo cup" ...actualy our vts are named cup.

so a real cup competicion car was:
1600 16v
be3 box plate lsd
cup internals for citroen sport kit
using bilsteins group A
alcom brakes.

searche the tube for " saxo copa"

axsaxoman
31st January 2011, 11:29
I tried all that with an ax we used to run --no advantage --keep camber to max of 2 and castor as much as you can get ,lower the steerng arms to get rid of bump steer and thats all you need to do,then sort the spring rates and rear to match ,whilst there may be a tech advantage doing more i doubt you will ever feel it,