Suspension setups

[jsdvtr]

I would like to know what suspension setups people are running for track use. Just give some people an idea on what are good out on track and what are not.

• What do you think to it?
• What you could improve on it i.e. Stiffer springs or dampers and so on?
• What do you plan on to make current setup better?

I think if you could go into fairly good detail also rather than just being like a thread on the suspension section on the main forum.

[jsdvtr]

I was running apex -50mm for road use with rear to match, it was a very good setup for the road but i think out on track it wouldnt cut it. I have now uprated to gaz front dampers, custom 300lb springs and built in camber in the struts which is near 4 degree's i believe and gaz gold rears to fit. I havent yet tried as cars currently off road.

I will be looking at getting my polyrace front wishbone bushes fitted. Buying a new refurbed rear beam with polyrace beam bushes and some 23mm torsion bars and some solid top mounts for the front.
I think this will be a very good setup for track use along with semi slicks.

[AndySAXO]

Polyrace are the best bushes, should help lower strut brace, sound good.

I am using for next year,

AST sportline 1all round, away Being services at the moment.

Will AST 325 lb spring on front coilover.

Rear 22mm torsion bars, lowered max 30mm.

Before it was the same but with 200 lb springs, which was good, but still got abit of body roll.

[jsdvtr]

A few on shed said the gaz setup is pretty much on par with the ast setup. I was thinking of chainging the struts to coilovers but i wouldnt gain anything although the springs on front are fairly low, lower than my -50mm apex.

[AndySAXO]

Hmm yer well no few lads with the gaz was good, I got my Ast at a price that worked out cheaper all round for Ast than the gaz setup.

I really rate the Ast but wouldn't go any lower than 40mm max the drive shaft angle will be really bad, and could lose alot of transmission.

[AndySAXO]

My car handles alot better the higher I was, I was down 50mm and it was nt as good as i am now at 30mm made I good diffenance

[jsdvtr]

Well i am yet to test them out but i cant wait to try the car out with them on. Well the price its cost me for these is lile half the price of full gold setup or ast so its a bargain for setup nearly as good. I also have got to spend like £250+ on ast top mounts to get some decent camber.

[Reechard]

Im currently running 35mm pi springs on standard dmapers, with the rear down to match.
Flow flex ARB bushes on the front and flow flex rear beam bushes.

It was alright on track, still some roll due to the spring and damper set up. Was only temporary though.

Got some Bilstein Group N dampers for the front, need to find some rears.
I have some faulkner 6" springs that are 275lb but not sure if I am going to run these or have some different ones made up.

Will be testing at Llandow in Feb and then Castle Combe next year. Cars being rebuilt currently.

[Harv]

Spax PSX kit. Seems perfectly fine even running semi-slicks. I don't feel the need to spend an extra £500 on what I've already got at this moment in time really, especially as its a daily car too.

My advice to anyone starting out would be too buy a budget but decent kit - 'apex or spax' and give them a go on track. The extra £500 you could in theory spend could be wisely spent on track time and with experience you will be faster with a 'budget kit' than a novice with the best suspension in the world! Its all about trying stuff out and tweaking things to how you like it.

I have to agree though, the Gaz Gold stuff and AST setups are very good its just as I'm a student I can't warrant spending that much for the sake of saving a second a lap or so lol. Jsd - the camber on your car is nuts (was looking at your updates on shed a while ago), will be fun driving that at high speeds haha!

[AndySAXO]

Hmm would say a well setup suspension it one off the most important thing

I used apex suspension and I disnt like it too much body roll seem to go side to side like a boat, it ok to start with, but sone wanted better setup.

I believe a good chassis setup it very important.

[jsdvtr]

Hmm would say a well setup suspension it one off the most important thing

I used apex suspension and I disnt like it too much body roll seem to go side to side like a boat, it ok to start with, but sone wanted better setup.

I believe a good chassis setup it very important.

I found the apex kit fairly good, especially for the price and still fairly comfy. Only ever used on road and at time in long sweeping bends down B roads i felt it needed something stiffer.
Atleast when i use the car when its sorted i can compare them to something and give better feedback about them for others.

I totally agree with the chassis setup, i was looking at getting cams, etc but with wanting to do track days asap i felt it would be alot better spent on the suspension and brakes.

[AndySAXO]

Yer I am for high spec cars, but they need to be used for what they where built for!!!

Yer didn't really like apex for the money yesterday they ok for cheap fun, but I enjoy track days more with the Ast, get better fell and cornering speeds.

[gavin_t]

Bilstien b8's with faulkner springs (150lb 35mm)

Came on the car so I cant comment on standard but I find my car handles really well. Has a bit of body roll to it but its nice and predictable and feels responsive. Would like it to be a bit stiffer but its my daily and I enjoy the more or less OEM ride quality :)

[Harv]

Hmm would say a well setup suspension it one off the most important thing

I used apex suspension and I disnt like it too much body roll seem to go side to side like a boat, it ok to start with, but sone wanted better setup.

I believe a good chassis setup it very important.

Yeah I agree about a good chassis setup. I think that is more important than any power figures!

All I was trying to get across to people was that you don't need to spend a £1000 on a suspension setup to go on track. A decent budget kit will easily do you for a year of track days imo. After 5 or 6+ days, you start to get a proper feel of the car and decide what way you want to go, you will have a much more focussed idea than just plucking out the top of your head 'I want this damper, this spring rate, this torsion bar size, this much camber etc). Suspension setups are all about what the driver wants, and tweaking the setup can take ages until you feel it is spot on.

I know people who tweak their camber by 1/2 a degree and can feel a massive difference. Although that's where a VBox can come in handy as you can measure virtually anything you want (cornering speeds - entry and exit), straight line speeds, lap times, g force around corners etc. Then compare them with your old setup and play 'spot the difference'. Although that is a bit too much for the regular track day go'er and more for the hardcore people out there, problem is you can start getting really anal about it and think your driving/testing an F1 car LOL!

[raunchz]

My ideal road kit would be:
- Bilstein Group N shocks
- 160-170lb faulkners/GMC '40mm' springs
- 21mm Torsion Bars
- 24mm Rear Arb
- Quaife ATB
- Powerflex bushes all-round
- 'Group N' engine mounts (All)
- Some good road tyres

If it was purely a track car:
- Pugsport front shocks (tarmac)
- Maybe some coilover around the 250lb mark
- Bilstein Group N Rears
- 24mm Rear ARB
- 23mm Torsion Bars
- Stiff bushes (polyrace?/solid)
- Group N upper engine mounts with solid lower gearbox mount
- Some nice tyres for on track
- ATB/Well setup plate diff

With regards to the height to 'lower' the car, I'd agree with Andy about not going much below 30mm'ish.

[AndySAXO]

Yer everyone like different set up cars, also I like the Ast adjusable top mounts at it not a set camber, so will be better to get to how I want the car to fell and handle.

[adamskiTNR]

And everybody's obsession with camber. Thinking more camber is better. Well, the stiffer the car is, and the less it rolls the less camber you will need to give optimum results. Having too much camber is the same as having too little camber.

[raunchz]

I'd personally stick with oem top mounts unless really looking for playing about with the fine tuning of the suspension setup chasing lap times etc.

BUT I can see why people do go for adjustable top mounts. It is worth noting, I'd weld strut top strengthening plates on if running stiff springs/solid top mounts

PLUS it'd be worth getting the front tracking laser setup when the complete 'uprated' front suspension setup is fitted

[Harv]

Going with Raunchz post, what would be your ideal setup.

I read somewhere that some people are using over 600lb springs with 26 or 27mm torsion bars. Might have been the stock hatch boys. That must be super stiff!

[Mochachino]

Going with Raunchz post, what would be your ideal setup.

I read somewhere that some people are using over 600lb springs with 26 or 27mm torsion bars. Might have been the stock hatch boys. That must be super stiff!

May aswell weld the car into one solid chassi with that sort of setup on a saxo :p

[raunchz]

Going with Raunchz post, what would be your ideal setup.

I read somewhere that some people are using over 600lb springs with 26 or 27mm torsion bars. Might have been the stock hatch boys. That must be super stiff!

I would say 600lb and 26mm torsion bars is mental, as you'd need dampers to cope with that.

The hardest I'd personally go is around the 250-300lb mark BUT if I was to own a Saxo again I would want to drive it on the road so would end up with 21mm bars and maybe 170lb springs upfront.

[Harv]

I would say 600lb and 26mm torsion bars is mental, as you'd need dampers to cope with that.

The hardest I'd personally go is around the 250-300lb mark BUT if I was to own a Saxo again I would want to drive it on the road so would end up with 21mm bars and maybe 170lb springs upfront.

Totally agree there! Like Danny said, you may as well weld the struts to the chassis haha :P. I did definitely read it somewhere though and I'm positive it was a saxo in the stock hatch or saxmax series. I'm sure they were running AST Competition dampers too (different to the sportline kit) as they are remote res. The Proflex stuff is a common too but is used more in rallying that for track stuff. That is if you want to spend between £3-6k on a suspension setup though :fcuk:.

Then again though, these type of cars are purely track. The only real 'bumps' are the curbs on the side of the track so it probably isn't too bad.

[Mochachino]

Totally agree there! Like Danny said, you may as well weld the struts to the chassis haha :P. I did definitely read it somewhere though and I'm positive it was a saxo in the stock hatch or saxmax series. I'm sure they were running AST Competition dampers too (different to the sportline kit) as they are remote res. The Proflex stuff is a common too but is used more in rallying that for track stuff. That is if you want to spend between £3-6k on a suspension setup though :fcuk:.

Then again though, these type of cars are purely track. The only real 'bumps' are the curbs on the side of the track so it probably isn't too bad.

Ahhhh I think you mean MadMattRacing? Check the IM Axles section theres a link and a spec in the custom Axle thread :y:

Shenpar welded the rear beam with no suspension on one of their track cars...so I heard..

[Harv]

Ahhhh I think you mean MadMattRacing? Check the IM Axles section theres a link and a spec in the custom Axle thread :y:

Shenpar welded the rear beam with no suspension on one of their track cars...so I heard..

Just had a look, I don't think it was that one, was a red car iirc. Still nuts having 25 or 26mm torsion bars though LOL!

Welded the beam with no suspension? Christ! I've heard about using solid mounts but not welding the beam solid haha, can't see that would have worked if I'm honest lol.

[adamskiTNR]

Solid suspension is the most imbaccilic idea i have ever heard. The reason the suspension movement is there is to keep the tyres in contact with the road surface for optimum traction. Removing this movement will casue even the slightest undulation to lift weight off the other side tyre, losing grip, and shifting weight onto the other one, overloading it and losing grip. Really. why?

[raunchz]

Solid suspension is the most imbaccilic idea i have ever heard. The reason the suspension movement is there is to keep the tyres in contact with the road surface for optimum traction. Removing this movement will casue even the slightest undulation to lift weight off the other side tyre, losing grip, and shifting weight onto the other one, overloading it and losing grip. Really. why?

........ because stiffer is better :p

[adamskiTNR]

Well I've been trumped lol.

[Reechard]

I know of a bora that is raced in the saloon car champs that runs no rear springs. Similar idea to the welded beam I guess. Certainly was flat at Combe where other cars were bouncing about.

[AndySAXO]

Yer it is too a certain point, look at all motorsport, f1 they still have some movement in the suspension or like matey said above it would lose traction.

[adamskiTNR]

You should try taking a solid suspension setup round magny-cors. That would destroy it

[blackie_2k5]

tbh ive got the psx kit on mine and it really is good on my car, its the hardest ride ive ever been in aswell! dont know why mine feels so good, car is lowered around 60mm too, still handles very very well, leeroy got in and said it was the crashiest saxo he'd ever been in lol, holds really well with minimal body roll, horrible coming of curbs as it sea saws being only on two wheels. did rebuild the struts with new strut top bearings and new psx, new wheel bearings and new wishbones/ drop links, so i think for the money i paid you cant get a better kit. if it was +20mm and had upper and lower braces id say itd be awesome(my set up not saying its true to all),obviousley there is much better about..... so it really depends wat you need out of you suspension to what you spend/choose

[jonathon5]

Spax psx & poly bushes for me

[Steve]

My ideal road kit would be:
- Bilstein Group N shocks
- 160-170lb faulkners/GMC '40mm' springs
- 21mm Torsion Bars
- 24mm Rear Arb
- Quaife ATB
- Powerflex bushes all-round
- 'Group N' engine mounts (All)
- Some good road tyres


Awesome set up.

I used to run a similar set up.
But with:

200lb d.faulkner springs (240mm free length iirc)
Standard differential

Starting to get on the "too stiff" for the road side, but on a track it was fantastic. Wish I had a Quaife at the time to see what it would have been like.
Spax / apex are very good, but not even in the same league as the bilstein stuff imo, i noticed the difference straight away when i put mine on.

[Mochachino]

Pugsport GrpN Tarmac Dampers
7" 325lb Main Spring
2" 40lb Helper
CompBrake Solid TopMounts
-1degree Camber
GrpN Engine Mounts
GrpA Solid Lower Mount
PolyRace Wishbone Bushes
No front ARB

Something a lil different with the rear end - need to test.

Before this, I bought the car with hand sawn down springs cabled tied to the spring pans.. 80mm down.

[Wayne]

My Set Up at the moment for Suspension is:

Bilstein Group N Shocks
Faulkner 155lb 35mm Springs
PowerFlexed Bushed Allround
Pugsport Group N Engine and Gearbox Mounts
OMP Lower Brace

Also have a 10 point Weld In OMP FIA Spec cage that goes to top struts and bolts to the rear beam if that counts, but can't comment on how car handles with cage as i ain't drove the car yet.

Handles pretty well, will give the car a few track days see how i get on, will change to coilovers if i feel need to later on.

[AndySAXO]

Just to add my set up for next year.

Fully serivce sportline 1 AST front adjustable dampers

Rear stock hatch dampers fully adjustable service also

300 lb springs to match the Ast dampers from Ast
AST top mounts
22mm t bars
24mm rear arb
No front arb
Fully Polyrace bushes

Soild vibra tech engine mount
With s1 gearbox with ATB diff

[mark1311]

my set up will be somthing alone the lines of...

-grpN engine mounts
-grN gearbox mounts (all 3)
-polyrace wishbone bushes
-powerflex arb bushes
-polyrace rear beam bush
-rebuilt rear axle
-21mm torsion bars
-24mm arb
-grN billies
-gmc springs
-new top mounts

any advice on my set up? anything i have forgotten ect?

[Mochachino]

my set up will be somthing alone the lines of...

-grpN engine mounts
-grN gearbox mounts (all 3)
-polyrace wishbone bushes
-powerflex arb bushes
-polyrace rear beam bush
-rebuilt rear axle
-21mm torsion bars
-24mm arb
-grN billies
-gmc springs
-new top mounts

any advice on my set up? anything i have forgotten ect?

Not much you can do to that really, its a proven setup - just things for your preference like tyre pressures and the height of the rear in relation to the front and weight distribution if you feel the need. Tyres?

[VTR_Craig]

-35mm apex kit (springs,shocks,dampers)

upper and lower braces

Works fine for me on track, hardly any roll, bit crashy on roads

Next mods are powerflex bushes all round

[raunchz]

my set up will be somthing alone the lines of...

-grpN engine mounts
-grN gearbox mounts (all 3)
-polyrace wishbone bushes
-powerflex arb bushes
-polyrace rear beam bush
-rebuilt rear axle
-21mm torsion bars
-24mm arb
-grN billies
-gmc springs
-new top mounts

any advice on my set up? anything i have forgotten ect?

Should be an awesome road/track setup!!

Youve only got 3 engine mounts, of which 2 are gearbox mounts (upper and lower), and the other being the upper hydraulic engine mount.

[mark1311]

3 i ment are, top and bottom and the one thts in the fork on the car that the lower mount bolts into

[16vax]

If it was purely a track car:
- Pugsport front shocks (tarmac)
- Maybe some coilover around the 250lb mark
- Bilstein Group N Rears
- 24mm Rear ARB
- 23mm Torsion Bars
- Stiff bushes (polyrace?/solid)
- Group N upper engine mounts with solid lower gearbox mount
- Some nice tyres for on track
- ATB/Well setup plate diff

thats just about the exact set up i have but std vts bars
colin

[dannygti]

if its purely track car/race car then you need to be looking at 400lb+ spring rates

[KamRacing]

depends what tyres you have...

[AndySAXO]

Yer I am going to 300 lb spring and will be mainly track and maybe bit weekend fun,

Hmm with a spring front end and standard torsion bars, I guess be abit unbalance?

Or is that how you like it to handle.

[KamRacing]

its not going to be unbalanced as such (i would consider a nervous oversteering car to be unbalanced) but would understeer far far more than a standard car.
The rear torsion bar is the rear spring, so this needs to be matched to keep the car lively. Personally I like a front wheel drive car to be set up to slightly oversteer then use power understeer to control it..

[jsdvtr]

Im stuck on something to do with when i get a new refurbed beam. The front springs ive got are pretty low, front bumpers about inch and half front the floor but there not lowering springs (what i got told from toad) but his car was low at the rear also but do i lower the rear to match or do i go for about 40mm lowered at the rear?

Thing is if i lower it the same as front (say 60mm for instance) will the dampers have enough movement to do there job or if it was 30-40mm would the car be balanced enough with front and rear being such different hieghts?

[Mochachino]

Youll just have to play about with it mate, depends on where the weight is in the car, arbs, tbar lbs and spring lbs, tyre pressures etc loads of different things to play around with. A higher rear end on a saxo would be in favour for oversteer but then the weight should be at the back..as there is no weight at the back on a saxo in relation to the front then the rear could be about level to the front to compensate..but then also the other factors i mentioned too. Youll have to find out for yourself! There isnt a set guideline to optimum heights.

[Dave_P]

my set up will be somthing alone the lines of...

-grpN engine mounts
-grN gearbox mounts (all 3)
-polyrace wishbone bushes
-powerflex arb bushes
-polyrace rear beam bush
-rebuilt rear axle
-21mm torsion bars
-24mm arb
-grN billies
-gmc springs
-new top mounts

any advice on my set up? anything i have forgotten ect?

Go for 23mm bars & a 2.25" id coilover conversion rather than GMC springs

if its purely track car/race car then you need to be looking at 400lb+ spring rates

I use 400lb front springs with my slicks! (350lb with ACB10's)

[mark1311]

Go for 23mm bars & a 2.25" id coilover conversion rather than GMC springs



I use 400lb front springs with my slicks! (350lb with ACB10's)

properly will be the Faulkner 155lb springs now...

not really on a budget as such, but i would like to spend 500/600, for shocks front and rear, already have the torsion bars, (brand new) so could always swop to 23mm bars, any advice/links to items would be great

[solvi]

And everybody's obsession with camber. Thinking more camber is better. Well, the stiffer the car is, and the less it rolls the less camber you will need to give optimum results. Having too much camber is the same as having too little camber.

i agree i run stock camber whith with group a bilsteins full rose jointed and
very stiiff and dont fell the nead off it...

IT DO NOT ROLLS..

Sorry for bad english...

[hard_corejoeboy]

Bilstein B8's
Faulkner 155ib (-40mm)
Powerflex rear beam mounts
OMP upper and lower strut brace


More than enough for me and nice and cheap!
If you want a better setup you would need over 200bhp i think to take advantage of it. So may as well just buy a better car...
You can stop bodyroll with polycarb windows, CF roofs, Bucket seats, weight distribution etc not neccessarily just buy getting a stiffer setup

[nath_vts]

Bilstein B8's
Faulkner 155ib (http://www.convertunits.com/info/ib) (-40mm)
Powerflex rear beam mounts
OMP upper and lower strut brace


More than enough for me and nice and cheap!
If you want a better setup you would need over 200bhp i think to take advantage of it. So may as well just buy a better car...
You can stop bodyroll with polycarb windows, CF roofs, Bucket seats, weight distribution etc not neccessarily just buy getting a stiffer setup

Thanks for the advice ive put polycarbs next on the list to get rid of body roll...

I dont see how the bhp of a car governs what suspension setup you have. They dont have GrpN Tarmac = 184bhp-206bhp and Gravel for 172bhp-184bhp Raceland 55bhp-91bhp

Il inform the saxmax boys that they only need B8s aswell with 155lb springs, upper n lower strut braces (OMP), powerflex (poverty) rear beam mounts and polycarbs to reduce body roll. In fact they have less power than a VTS so Standards should do them fine right?

In all seriousness you are an idiot and shouldnt be in this section.

[hard_corejoeboy]

Well seeing as the windows are higher up on the car the less weight up top there will be the less roll. Get a spring with a bit of weight on the end of it and it will flap and boing about everywhere. Same principle.

I couldn't care less if you don't think i should be in this section. I think you are an oxygen thief but i haven't murdered you yet.

Big deal if i haven't got a motorsport degree and am not a mechanic. Could quite easily take the piss out of you if you tried to assemble a GPMG or an SA80 rifle cos you haven't done it before. Yet you think its fine to mock me for my lack of technical knowledge of a Citroen Saxo LMAO

And whats the point in fitting £2000 plus suspension setups to a Citroen Saxo? They really aren't going to make a bugger all world of difference unless you have the driving skills to actually warrant having them.

I haven't had another hot hatch be able to out corner me as of yet. So either my setup is good or im an immensely great driver. (im good but not that good)

[sexy_gt]

am i the only one still using standard rear bars?

[mark1311]

am i the only one still using standard rear bars?

must be one of the onlu few, whats your reason for using standard bars?

[hard_corejoeboy]

am i the only one still using standard rear bars?

T-bars? I am obviously lol
Because i can't afford non 'poverty' thicker one's

[Colin]

am i the only one still using standard rear bars?

No need for bigger bars thats why :y: I run standards on the rally car. Totally fine. Only a bit bouncy over the rough but growing bigger balls cures that ;)

[raunchz]

I felt 21mm rear bars certainly helped the feel of the car - it's not as bit a change as you'd maybe imagine

[sexy_gt]

cheers for the back up colin. i neven been in a car with them uprated. not quite sure what to expect.

reason why i have never experimented in them... i guess there have been what i think to be more important or should i say more interesting things to spend my money on 1st :)

anyone at cadwell this friday? i am :)

[Colin]

Totally agree mate. I would like to try some myself too though, but im not really chasing that last couple of tenths and my second name isnt "Hamilton" so i feel I dont need them ;)

[adamskiTNR]

The rear bar subject is all about how YOU want the car to feel really. yet again bigger isn't always better. if YOU can go faster with thin bars, then why would YOU want thicker bars? just to take the car out of your comfort zone, thus slowing YOU down. And just for good measure. YOU

[JoshB]

Would it not twist your chassis having an immensely springy back end compared to the front?

[Colin]

The rear bar subject is all about how YOU want the car to feel really. yet again bigger isn't always better. if YOU can go faster with thin bars, then why would YOU want thicker bars? just to take the car out of your comfort zone, thus slowing YOU down. And just for good measure. YOU

Agreed, I like the car oversteery, and mine does that now so I wont change it tbh.

[Dave_P]

19mm bars are fine for bumpy tarmac rally stages but for track days/racing/speed events & SQM you really want to be thinking about fitting bigger bars.

[nath_vts]

Big deal if i haven't got a motorsport degree and am not a mechanic. Could quite easily take the piss out of you if you tried to assemble a GPMG or an SA80 rifle cos you haven't done it before. Yet you think its fine to mock me for my lack of technical knowledge of a Citroen Saxo LMAO

Difference is im not on a SA80 owners forum chatting shit...

[hard_corejoeboy]

Difference is im not on a SA80 owners forum chatting shit...

How about give some advice then or is that too hard?
Its not shit if i believe it to be true. I get on fine with the car as it is so why would i care what anyone else thinks?
If i like it then someone else will. They don't need to be told 'you need this £5000 suspension setup to go on track and gain the admiration of fellow forum members you don't particularly care to meet'

[Dave_P]

I'm not a mechanic and i couldn't put a gun together so lets not fall out guys... can we get back on topic now?

[hard_corejoeboy]

I'm not a mechanic and i couldn't put a gun together so lets not fall out guys... can we get back on topic now?

I was on topic then got attacked again lol :panic:

Why do saxo's not have rear strut braces? I've seen them on clio's but never on saxo's? Im not a fan of oversteer especially not in a tin can.

[nath_vts]

How about give some advice then or is that too hard?
Its not shit if i believe it to be true. I get on fine with the car as it is so why would i care what anyone else thinks?
If i like it then someone else will. They don't need to be told 'you need this £5000 suspension setup to go on track and gain the admiration of fellow forum members you don't particularly care to meet'

Whos telling anyone to buy a £5000 suspension setup?

[loudandproud205]

Am one of the few that dont like the bigger torsion bars or thicker arb's on the rear for that matter.

Makes the rear to twitchy.

It's for track at the end of the day and track time is meant to be for fun, anything more then you should be looking in to competing.

people seem to forget why they went to a track day in the first place, and when you get all serious you lose some of the fun.

[loudandproud205]

I was on topic then got attacked again lol :panic:

Why do saxo's not have rear strut braces? I've seen them on clio's but never on saxo's? Im not a fan of oversteer especially not in a tin can.

Was that meant in jest?

[KamRacing]

Thanks for the advice ive put polycarbs next on the list to get rid of body roll...

I dont see how the bhp of a car governs what suspension setup you have. They dont have GrpN Tarmac = 184bhp-206bhp and Gravel for 172bhp-184bhp Raceland 55bhp-91bhp

Il inform the saxmax boys that they only need B8s aswell with 155lb springs, upper n lower strut braces (OMP), powerflex (poverty) rear beam mounts and polycarbs to reduce body roll. In fact they have less power than a VTS so Standards should do them fine right?

In all seriousness you are an idiot and shouldnt be in this section.

and relax..
Less mass and a lower centre of gravity means less weight transfer. I know what top running saxmax run and quite frankly their setup is unsuitable for anything but an all out race car. I dont think anyone needs to run anything anywhere near as serious or expensive for a trackday.
Engine power is not really related, but a generally faster car may work its chassis far harder due to higher speeds attained.

[KamRacing]

Am one of the few that dont like the bigger torsion bars or thicker arb's on the rear for that matter.

Makes the rear to twitchy.

It's for track at the end of the day and track time is meant to be for fun, anything more then you should be looking in to competing.

people seem to forget why they went to a track day in the first place, and when you get all serious you lose some of the fun.

If you match the front to the bigger rear torsion bars then this should help to balance the car, but understeer is certainly easier to predict

[Dave_P]

Am one of the few that dont like the bigger torsion bars or thicker arb's on the rear for that matter.

Makes the rear to twitchy.

A persons driving style could make the car twitchy, lift off oversteer etc. I have 23mm bars & 25mm ARB as well as Proflex 3 way rear dampers and apart from 1 oversteery moment (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3g3mxAzcD7E) my car will not oversteer even if i try & provoke it...

[hard_corejoeboy]

A persons driving style could make the car twitchy, lift off oversteer etc. I have 23mm bars & 25mm ARB as well as Proflex 3 way rear dampers and apart from 1 oversteery moment (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3g3mxAzcD7E) my car will not oversteer even if i try & provoke it...

Looks like the track was a bit wet on that one.

This one is from poor driving

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MktWvMsPakY

[Dave_P]

Na it was dry...

[hard_corejoeboy]

Na it was dry...

Fair enough looked wet in vid. You have any pics/thread of the car?

[Dave_P]

Pics/spec on this thread.

http://www.saxperience.com/forum/showthread.php?t=341514&page=6

[Olly]

my car with 23mm torsion bars and 24mm rear arb drives very precisely. Get a much better feeling of when the car unbalances front to rear and begins to lose traction at either end.

Kind of essential to keep on the throttle through any complex of close turns as it will slide out very easily with lift off..really complements having a diff imo.

but im still learning the characteristics of my car so cant go into much detail. All i will say is its alot nicer on track than my daily saxo with 155lbs springs etc... but on the road is the opposite.

[Dave_P]

What set up do you use on the front of the track car olly?

[Olly]

I have the gaz gold single adjustment dampers, with 350lbs 6" springs, Gaz fitted/modified the legs to fit the coilovers, adding camber to them, and also lowering and turning the steering arms upside down, Provisions to lower the car right down basically with minimal affect on bump steer.
removed the front arb too, but wouldnt mind trying a small one. only have a gti one myself. thing it might be too much!

[Dave_P]

Try a 18mm Quiky bar, thats what i use.

If GAZ turn the steering arms upside down i take it you fit the track rod ends upside down too?

Do you feel the bump & rebound damping is well suited to the 350lb springs?

[Olly]

does the quicky bar fit off droplinks like the 'sport' spec rollbars, or does it attach to the wishbones poverty spec style?

Do you suffer any bump steer? some of them hill climbs are surely less than smooth?

[Dave_P]

Quiky bar is the same as gti/vts etc.

The hills are very smooth so no probs with bump steer.

We have monsters like this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d9Lopg7YbUY&feature=related) doing hillclimbs so the tracks need to be smooth. :cool:

[adamskiTNR]

Ah, the humble predator v10. sounds wrong in the scottish hills. An engine definitely far away from it's birth place lol

[Dave_P]

Indeed, it used to reside in an Arrows F1 car. :)

[Tufty]

the way i am doing it is i have a cheap decent suspension set up, going to LEARN that and then make little improvements, and just research on other peoples set ups.

Like said before, its all abot how YOU feel and what YOUR limits are as a driver.
Also, once you learn the car, you will learn the track and at this point this is where you need to make changes to the car for THE track. Hope i have summed that up okay.

[adamskiTNR]

The pronouns are catching on

[Olly]

Try a 18mm Quiky bar, thats what i use.

If GAZ turn the steering arms upside down i take it you fit the track rod ends upside down too?

Do you feel the bump & rebound damping is well suited to the 350lb springs?

Yes the arms go on the other way up. Have to swap the track rod ends from left to right as when upside down they are offset the otherside

The damping has so much adjustment its easy to find a setting that feels right. Id say 350lbs springs are well within the limits of the damping rates there set to adjust to atm.

That predator is nice. :D

[jpsaxo]

my car with 23mm torsion bars and 24mm rear arb drives very precisely. Get a much better feeling of when the car unbalances front to rear and begins to lose traction at either end.

Kind of essential to keep on the throttle through any complex of close turns as it will slide out very easily with lift off..really complements having a diff imo.

but im still learning the characteristics of my car so cant go into much detail. All i will say is its alot nicer on track than my daily saxo with 155lbs springs etc... but on the road is the opposite.

Sounds similar to my set up, im currently running;

Ast coilovers upfront
250lb springs
ast solid top mounts
Group n rear wishbone bushes and polyrace all round
Group N black capped rear billies
22mm torsion bars
24mm rear arb
standard vts front arb

The car is very pointy, just point it towards the corner and it turns in nicely, similar to daves is almost impossible to make it oversteer. I'd recommend my set up to anyone as it was a huge improvement for track work over my old set up (group n fronts 170lb springs and b8 rears with standard bars and 24mm arb)

[jsdvtr]

Could anyone give me asome advice on what i should do, Ive got gaz front struts (toads) which are similar to ollys but just normal springs rather than coilovers but the front is pretty low. Im fitting a new beam which i have just bought which is down 55mm but i was thinknig of raising to 35-40mm to let the dampers do there job correctly but the front would be really low and rear really high. Any ideas on best way to go about this?

Also looking at uprating the TB bars maybe 23mm as running 300lb springs.

[willsy]

Just swap the springs, the ones that are on there if i remember correctly were very short in length. Give Faulkner a call and ask for some to be made at 300lb rate with slightly longer length. They should already be well aware of Saxo/106 basic measurements etc

[solvi]

hi ..

so this is my race bisteins they are 41mm not 40mm , its a groupA circuit setup.


http://i1229.photobucket.com/albums/ee466/solvilight/11022011595.jpg

[MaRiO89]

I used to run Bilstein B8 Sprintline dampers front and rear, with -60mm Spax springs with the rear lowered to match. The car only sat at about -40mm as the dampers were very stiff.

It handled superbly, on or off track and i would recommend the Bilstein dampers to anyone.

[Aly]

Currently my Saxo has Spax 40mm Springs and PI Dampers and back is lowered 30mm.

I thought it handled really really well on Croft although it was a bit soft, you can see the body roll:

http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o136/aly05189/DSC_0165_exposure.jpg
http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o136/aly05189/DSC_0405_exposure.jpg
http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o136/aly05189/DSC_0237_exposure.jpg

I'm not after anything too expensive, how much of an improvement would the Spax PSX kit be over what I have already?

I would want Bilsteins but ideally I'd want GrpNs but I don't want to spend all my money on suspension.

Cheers

[Olly]

From what ive heard recently dont buy the psx kit

If you find the spax ok, then why change? Is the car becoming a track car?

[AndySAXO]

That is basically the same setup as me, bar I have the Ast rear dampers.

I really love the Ast, I know they are expensive ( I didn't pay that peice though) but really are good, give me alot more faith in the car if that make sence.




Sounds similar to my set up, im currently running;

Ast coilovers upfront
250lb springs
ast solid top mounts
Group n rear wishbone bushes and polyrace all round
Group N black capped rear billies
22mm torsion bars
24mm rear arb
standard vts front arb

The car is very pointy, just point it towards the corner and it turns in nicely, similar to daves is almost impossible to make it oversteer. I'd recommend my set up to anyone as it was a huge improvement for track work over my old set up (group n fronts 170lb springs and b8 rears with standard bars and 24mm arb)

[Aly]

From what ive heard recently dont buy the psx kit

If you find the spax ok, then why change? Is the car becoming a track car?

It's the dampers I'm looking to change not the springs.

[hard_corejoeboy]

I used to run Bilstein B8 Sprintline dampers front and rear, with -60mm Spax springs with the rear lowered to match. The car only sat at about -40mm as the dampers were very stiff.

It handled superbly, on or off track and i would recommend the Bilstein dampers to anyone.

I find even the b8's are too hard for the road really i even changed my tyre profile to 50's to try and help but its still bloody hard for the road. Fine if you live in Wales though with their perfect roads..

[solvi]

I have the gaz gold single adjustment dampers, with 350lbs 6" springs, Gaz fitted/modified the legs to fit the coilovers, adding camber to them, and also lowering and turning the steering arms upside down, Provisions to lower the car right down basically with minimal affect on bump steer.
removed the front arb too, but wouldnt mind trying a small one. only have a gti one myself. thing it might be too much!

that is a nice setup...Opinion.

similar to what i use and dont lower the cat to mutch.

http://i1229.photobucket.com/albums/ee466/solvilight/11022011595.jpg

http://i1229.photobucket.com/albums/ee466/solvilight/telemovela06-03-2001511.jpg


not just coilover kit but big mod in the strusts whith a new tube to acept 41mm bilsteins,can easely convert to gravel.
the rear ones are full rose jointed and doubles sizes off b8 bilsteins will put fotos.

[solvi]

ok this is the right ones....

they are circuit race spec...

full rose jointed . as you can see they are mutch larger then b8

http://i1229.photobucket.com/albums/ee466/solvilight/02042011771.jpg

they are very similar to the tecnoshoks ones...

i payded 1270 euros for all 4 !! just fit to the car..

very good price!!i takes a 3 week time to be made...the rally spec is stok..but for circuit as to be worked again.

[AndySAXO]

what spring rating is that?

the rear damper looks like the AST rear damper,

[solvi]

i can give you the contact off the builder off the shoks...

they are at good price for the quality and are made to your request can also convert for gravel but have to change the rear ones....

http://i1229.photobucket.com/albums/ee466/solvilight/telemovela06-03-2001540.jpg

[solvi]

besides the good looking the front one are not working as should ...maybe ok for tarmac rally but not for circuit....seen a 106 forum ..and it seams the problem is a very long spring, i wll take them out off the car and back to builder.

anyone whith the same problem?? the car is to high...and the springs are at the lower limit...

??

[KamRacing]

Check the spring length and get shorter ones. At a guess you are running an 8 inch spring. If so try a 6" at the same poundage and work from there. Sometimes a little experimentation is needed to get it right.

[solvi]

so ive trieded the cheper track day set-up whitch is:

normal shocks whith a quicl travel to suspencions workshop and they make then A LOT HARDER, plus normal lowering coils -20mm??

the result? i loved it , the are a lot hard then the billis coilovers and the cost less the half the price.

you can send even a blowed old strut and the can return a circuit capable struts , the same for the rear.

its a oem saxo strut rebuild plus difrent dampening .

at mx and enduro bikes this is a normal mod.


i ve send my coils back to the builder and demand for " a KART " type suspencions.


also go to try camber to adjust plates, the ones that screw on top!!!

[hard_corejoeboy]

What sort of handling would you get from a car that has been lowered front but not at the back?

[KamRacing]

more oversteer probably. Depends how extreme the difference is and how stiff the front setup is though

[hard_corejoeboy]

Is there a setup out there for 106 that allows you to keep a standard ride height/comfort?

[solvi]

i has been lowered front and back ..
the point is..coilovers wont justify.

if trackday day only car, a decent upgrade modifieded stock rear ones and modfied front stock sruts can made a very good circuit ones, and alot cheaper..

www.sosuspensoes.com


take a look at this one...PS: only example , this is not my suspencion guy!!!!
but as alot off fotos.

if rally ..i would say thar coilis are inspensable for suspecion travel...we (i think) search for controled stifeness.

[solvi]

other subject to have in consideracion and also can make some notiçable difrence is keep de weels ligned not to zero degrees but 0.5 opened to 1.0 opened the last will favor turning but slower on straits the first aslo turn good but is faster on strait.

sorry for the english. i m from Portugal.

if someone know anything abaut toe caster camber CIRCUIT mods for our loved car
would be aprecieted!!

[Dave_P]

Is there a setup out there for 106 that allows you to keep a standard ride height/comfort?

Errr... the standard suspension set up. :S

[hard_corejoeboy]

Yes that was the answer i was looking for dave thankyou don't know what a help you've just been to me lol

You know what i meant!

[jsdvtr]

How do people go about setting up there dampers (for people with adjustable bump and rebound)?

Do you just adjust till what you feel is adequate? I know this would different to road than on track.

[solvi]

http://www.rtec.ws/amortisseur-106-saxo.php



nice brakes also!!

[solvi]

hello..

so my new/old coilovers just arrived,

big difrence is the spring ..old springs was 250-60-60

new ones are 200-60-70

the first number il the spring lendg 200mm
the secoud is the spring diamete
the third number is the stifness...
all in mm

200-60-70 Rate 70 N/ ~ 400 lb, block 89 mm

is 400lb to mutch??for hardcore circuit saxo?
it will run more negative camber
, as they came whith included adjustable top monts -2.4...

tomorow will put pics..

[Dave_P]

is 400lb to mutch??for hardcore circuit saxo?

It depends on what tyres you use, more grip = stiffer suspension in my book.

[dannygti]

If running slicks and camber I'd say 400lb minimum for a full track car.

[solvi]

slick AS s9b michelin....you know..the 1240 euro tyres.

verry gripiiii...i hope going the good way whith the suspencion seting this time..

[solvi]

minimum????

you mean it still go bouncing whith 400??

[dannygti]

minimum????

you mean it still go bouncing whith 400??

Trial and error with suspension setups.. People can suggest an estimate then you need to refine it yourself. No such things as a perfect setup. On a race grid full of the same cara with the same specs there won't be any with the same geo setup as another.

I'd start at 400lb and go from there.

What we could all benefit from is a proper bladed anti-roll bar. This would provide adjustability that standard cars don't have, unfortunately no such thing exists for our cars that I know of.

[solvi]

what you mean bladed arb?? rear?

[dannygti]

what you mean bladed arb?? rear?

On race cars you can get an anti roll bar then at either end it has a blade/knife like part, this can then be twisted to produce difference levels of stiffness. Very difficult to explain on here..

Google it :)

[solvi]

ill do it.

i was asking dave_p were to get the big rear arb like 25mm

any gess?

[Ryan]

25mm rear arb was available from pugsport.

[Mochachino]

Pugsport dont make torsion bars anymore do they, dont think they do ARBs either.

Spoox do and IM Axles produce the 25mm though.

[adamskiTNR]

The blade type roll bars utilise a thin "blade" in place of the tube section on one end of the bar. This blade can be rotated so that the force is applied to the blade at varying angles. When the blade is flat (say 0 degrees) then it will flex quite easily. on edge (90 degrees) it will be very stiff and will not bend easily. so you essentially get an infinitely adjustable (within it's range) arb

[solvi]

hello back to coilovers again ...i ve received the new setup ..here some fotos.
i realy hope this time they can be caled a circuit suspencion...maybe 18 march ill test .

http://i1229.photobucket.com/albums/ee466/solvilight/030620101363.jpg
http://i1229.photobucket.com/albums/ee466/solvilight/030620101361.jpg
http://i1229.photobucket.com/albums/ee466/solvilight/090620101377.jpg
http://i1229.photobucket.com/albums/ee466/solvilight/030620101360.jpg

[solvi]

hi..

so the shocks are in the car again whith the new top mounts.
iz instal, no big problems to fit.

strange, but the car stayed at the same high even whith shorter springs
but now aparently is ALOT stifer at front and alot more stifer at the rear end also.


http://i1229.photobucket.com/albums/ee466/solvilight/210620101434.jpg
http://i1229.photobucket.com/albums/ee466/solvilight/210620101423.jpg

also no problem on top mount nut being short???

[solvi]

ok it solved...

after almost a year trying to find a winer set up ...i think i start to have a clue..

so test today and i can thanks to mr Paulo for building this shocks and turned into circuit mods , thanks Miguel from DIFERSPORT !! we builds a strong fiable and cost wise engine and box.

and VITO from MECANOSPORT helping sep chassis so strong.


the car is suberb... its a unbetable track saxo.

it was the fast saxo in almost 20 cars. kiled alot off hondas...


today im very very happy!!!!