Pedal box

[adamskiTNR]

I'm currently in the middle of designing a pedal box as a project on the side of the car. I have since discovered that this isn't the easiest of tasks. I have a done a few sketches of the basic setup and mechanisms. Once i'm happy with it and have gone over the dimensions and referred it to the car i will make a cad model and a few animations to show you guys. Then over time the finished product. I will make a project thread just for it if it goes ahead.
Cheers
Adam
http://img530.imageshack.us/img530/4553/ccf0312201000000.jpg

[Mochachino]

Cool stuff mate, will be good to see it progress.

OBP produce some good pedal boxes for the Saxo.

[blackie_2k5]

looks good mate, if it works well and your comfortable making more you should set up a group buy and see if some fo the members would like one, good price to yourslef and the members :y:

[adamskiTNR]

Cool stuff mate, will be good to see it progress.

OBP produce some good pedal boxes for the Saxo.

I know they do, but they are really expensive for my budget. And this is more fun.
Plus, i am purposely making mine flat to the floor. Then i can shift my seat back, space the wheel back, and make spacers for the column to bring it down. dtm style for the win

looks good mate, if it works well and your comfortable making more you should set up a group buy and see if some fo the members would like one, good price to yourslef and the members :y:

Yeah. I will see how it all goes first. It should be a nice end product. powdercoated, nice smooth bearings everywhere, bias bar etc.

[Saaamon]

Sounds interesting this, how long untill you get some drawings up?

[adamskiTNR]

check the progress threads
i will do significant updates in here

[adamskiTNR]

Yay! draft one is complete now! Just finished the clutch linkage. Still a few refinements. And suggestions welcome. i'll need them

http://img101.imageshack.us/img101/3271/finisheddraft1.png
http://img46.imageshack.us/img46/7606/clutchlinkage.png

[raunchz]

The pivot leaver for the clutch cable, id maybe give it a bit of adjustment so you can alter/tweak the ratio of pedal movement to the clutch arm on the gearbox.

Either that or make sure you get the measurements right!!

[adamskiTNR]

Yes. don't worry i'm on that. Going to make a load of fitment holes to adjust it down the bar. or maybe a more accurate adjuster somehow. will see

[adamskiTNR]

The sloped design is now complete

http://img340.imageshack.us/img340/79/finishedp.png

[wolf_gsxr]

designs look spot on mate.possibly a harder return spring for people running gsxr bodies as they make the throttle light an lack "feel" apart from that and adjusters... GET THEM MADE! they designed to sit further forward than origional pedals as there spaced wider?

[adamskiTNR]

Cheers
Unfortunately i can't dynamically model the return springs as the design accelerator application for them doesn't seem to work
Yes they are made to sit further back. so seat will be whacked right back on the frames. and the steering wheel will probably need a spacer depending on your arms.
You can kind of see how far they sit back by looking at the slope on the box. obviously the flat bit is the bottom of the slope. the brake and clutch pedals at the pedal pads are 80mm ish in front of the slope edge

[wolf_gsxr]

how much would a pedal box like this go for? either if you make it or if i was to go and buy one from a motorsport place? will you be making a set for you car?

[adamskiTNR]

A obp pro race pedal box. very similar to this, and the box i got the basic design idea from and the slope (as obp make one direct for saxo/106). £500 ish
As most have stated to me already, there are many cheaper options out there for a 3 pedal pedal box with bias adjustment. like compbrake ones. but i did a lot of market research on the subject at autosport and the compbrake ones were terrible quite frankly. and all these cheap alternatives do not use bearings, they use bronse phosphor bushes. and mine have adjustable throttle progression, High quality ball bearings, made to fit the saxo floor pan.
I will be making one for my own car first. then depending on the experience and budgeting set a price for the pedal box to be sold to select people. but i need to be careful around the subject of safety testing, which i will need to look into before selling any. or find out if i can just get the buyer to sign a disclaimer etc etc.

[adamskiTNR]

And also, good luck with finding many pedal boxes that run cable clutch

[wolf_gsxr]

ano there all hydraulic. your kit use the existing cable?

[adamskiTNR]

yes it uses a cable. but the cable will have to be longer so will be custom from a company. undecided which yet. but if you look there is also the ability to fit a mc and unbolt the cable linkage. simply converting it to hydro clutch

[KamRacing]

how much would a pedal box like this go for? either if you make it or if i was to go and buy one from a motorsport place? will you be making a set for you car?

AP Racing and Tilton charge nigh on £1500. Stunning engineering though. OBP is a much more palatable option price wise.

[adamskiTNR]

was having a chat with tilton. having a nosey around their boxes and taking a few pics. very very nice. but as said about £1300 for the top of the range ones

[KamRacing]

The OBP ones look a big crap in pictures in comparison but much better in the flesh. I'm getting one for my own car.

[jpsaxo]

Excellent work mate, really liking that :D

[axsaxoman]

I have been in 3 different cars fitted with 3 different makes of pedal boxs and all have been dissapointing --the problem is there is not enough space to have normal operating pedals with enough leverage to get a nice pedal operation .
If I were going to design something --it would be using pull cylinders adapting the std pedal assmebly --but I,m not .i think the better answer is to fit a bias twin cylinder arrangemnt on the std servo.
did you know the std servo gives an 8.8 or 9 to 1 increase in effort + thats on top of the mechanical linkage of the pedal ,so to get that sort of advantae on a pedal box is not possible .
so with any pedal box you will have to enjoy very ,very heavy pedal pressure before it does anything most boxs only have a 5 -6 pedal ratio,and that does not make it easy to drive fast and precise ,maybe a geared type of pedal box?
so you are then into special size piston calipers to make it work

i don,t have the answer ,but i know most will not be happy with a normal pedal box .
If you are making a race car and can dump all the dash then maybe you can find enuogh space to fit a hangint type ,whicch will be much better as you can have longer pedals .
also all the untis out there do not sit anybody with long legs ,due to space limitations again.
you need 80bar of pressure at calipers by applying 4 or 5 bar of pressure to the brake pedal to get a good feel with the pedal .


just my views on the subject -up to you if you agree or disagree.

[adamskiTNR]

Thanks for the input. I was considering fitting a dash bar for my roll cage and fitting some sort of bracket for a underhung pedal box design on it.
Why does it require so much pressure? If other cars can be driven with ap boxes etc then why can't a flyweight like a saxo run one?

[axsaxoman]

a hangin box mounted on a rollcage with dash remade to suit will work ,the boxs that fit to the floor don,t because the angles you have to set pedals at don,t work out with the sloping floor amd where your feet want to be relative to the pedals and where the seating postion is .
your other option is to resize all the claipers etc to match your chosen pedal box
the pressure i have stated is std caliper pressure you get on a std saxo and what ap racing will tell you is about correct for a good pedal feel

[adamskiTNR]

hmm. I might have a word with a guy on rallye reg. who has an obp box similar to my design. Will see how his is, then go from there

[axsaxoman]

ask questions on piston dia,s on calipers as well .
.I find the pedal pressure required unacceptable --with any of the boxs i have driven ,if all you want is bias there are easier ways of getting it with the std set-up + a good pedal feel

[adamskiTNR]

I just don't want the servo feel. really don't like it compared to no servo. with no servo you can slowly feed the pressure in to the tires maximum grip. with servo you have to react after you have discovered the result if that makes sense.... you don't know that you are just about to lock up. you have to lock up then back off. with no servo you can feel everything before hand.

I'll find a way i'm sure

[stokesy]

at the risk of sounding very stupid, whats the benefit of having a pedal box as apposed to standard??

[adamskiTNR]

precision, feel, adjustability

And its a fun/challenging project

[KamRacing]

I just don't want the servo feel. really don't like it compared to no servo. with no servo you can slowly feed the pressure in to the tires maximum grip. with servo you have to react after you have discovered the result if that makes sense.... you don't know that you are just about to lock up. you have to lock up then back off. with no servo you can feel everything before hand.

I'll find a way i'm sure

you can convert the standard pedal box to not run a servo. I've seen it done on a few 205 rally cars.

precision, feel, adjustability

And its a fun/challenging project

Wearing the right shoes can make a massive difference. I've been breaking in my new OMP race boots and the difference between them and normal shoes is amazing. Only costs about £50 too lol

[adamskiTNR]

you can convert the standard pedal box to not run a servo. I've seen it done on a few 205 rally cars.





The common problem with this is the standard pedal assembly fixings cracking and bending. this makes it feel spongy. as the assembly is not up to having un servo assisted foot pressure

[axsaxoman]

I just don't want the servo feel. really don't like it compared to no servo. with no servo you can slowly feed the pressure in to the tires maximum grip. with servo you have to react after you have discovered the result if that makes sense.... you don't know that you are just about to lock up. you have to lock up then back off. with no servo you can feel everything before hand.

I'll find a way i'm sure

you get all that by setting up the bias correctly and not fitting correct piston sized calipers and still have a servo .
but i do understand what you are saying ,but in the heat of battle when you are trying to judge the last possible moment tobrake you cannot have a very heavy pedal -which is wht you will get with any of the 3 different make pedal boxs i have had experience with .
,anyway I still think the best all round disc /caliper set-up ,for most drvers+conditions will be the good old large discs+ std calpers on extension brackets ,once you ift 4pots you loose alot of feel --the feel is same as std car -but 100% more braking --enough to smoke the tyres if needed .
yes i like a pedal like a brick and i know what you mean about feel --but i have yet to see a pedal box that can do all that on a r/h/d saxo/106.
ask round and find somoen that has one of these pedal boxs and go drive it,then make your decision on how to improve it..
you always find a servo owith less of mulitplication factor --say5-1 instead of 9-1--that will give you some more feel

[adamskiTNR]

-but i have yet to see a pedal box that can do all that on a r/h/d saxo/106.

Then i shall try my very best to make one that does....and if it doesn't, try try again

[slammed106]

has anything new happened with this???



i`ve recently started doing something similar myself...

*copied from my blog*

before spending any cash i made a mock up of the master cylinders to have a look for space....

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v11/slammed106/2011-07-05180001.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v11/slammed106/2011-07-05175952.jpg



following on from Sandys comments about a overhung bias assembly being preferable i had a quick look to see what space was like above the steering colomn:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v11/slammed106/2011-07-24123332.jpg

"the man from DelMonte.... he say YES!!"

so off with the rack.. off with the pedal assembly:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v11/slammed106/2011-07-24130020.jpg

as you can (just about) see.. the clutch pedal (closest) pivots and the upper portion of the pedal pulls the clutch cable... the brake pedal pivots at the top and pushes a actuator through the bulkhead which in turn operates the cross link...

now... if the assembly could be modified so the clutch AND brake pedal shared a common pivot point and instead of using a "pull" motion like the clutch does the brake pedal "pushes" towards the back of the clocks area,, we may, in fact, have a winner!!

so thats what i did!!:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v11/slammed106/IMG_0106.jpg

still need to fabricate a support for the pivot bolt as you can see but the idea seems to work...


ive also measured from the new pivot to the pedal pad and positioned the pushrod so it operates with a 6:1 pedal ratio...

a quick trial fit:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v11/slammed106/IMG_0104.jpg

as you can see the steering knuckle is close to the pivot bolt but i can mod a few things and have a safe clearance easy enough....

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v11/slammed106/2011-07-27175405.jpg

as you can see the pivot point for the brake pedal has moved and a 3mm thick pickup made for the clutch and brake pedals to share.. a new 3mm outer plate has been made that not only supports the clutch pivot but also supports the master cylinders.. a piece now needs to be made to:

*support the brake pedal pivot
*clear the steering knuckle
*clear the throttle cable
*support the backplate that holds the master cylinders...

hmmm could be a tricky bastard!!!!

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v11/slammed106/2011-07-27175355.jpg

the big side plate needs a window cutting in to allow clearance for the bias bar...

an some geeky shit... feel free to ignore...

with the ideal pedal ratio of 6:1 acheived, due to the limited length of the peugeot pedal the short arm that operates the cylinders is quite short and that causes some issues..

1- suitable stroke.. pedal moves a lot but the arm only moves 1/6th of the distance..
2- the arc that the upper pivot is quite a tight radius that means as the arm moves towards the master cylinders it travels up and down (imagine 1 of those knobs on a steering wheel..)

1- according to the AP site the cylinders i plan to use have a 1" stroke.. 6" of foot travel?? meh.. should still be way off the floor i reckon...
2- also.. according to the AP site the maximum angle the pushrods can go through is 4degrees.. from a few more measurements i think theres about 40mm of travel before that angle is exceeded...

so... basically... it should work.....

http://www.apracing.com/info/products.asp?product=Vertical+Flange+Types+%3Cimg+ border%3D%222%22+src%3D%22http%3A%2F%2Fwww%2Eaprac ing%2Ecom%2Fpics%2Fproductpics%2FFlange%2520Mount% 2Ejpg%22%2F%3E%2DCP2623+Type_2386_2385


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v11/slammed106/2011-07-28170716.jpg

[adamskiTNR]

very interesting. can't beat a jury rigging of original parts.

As far as my project is going. i haven't had much of a chance to get the under hung design off the floor yet. and i'm also changing my cad software over to catia shortly so will need to start again.
In mine, i am considering going in a different
direction, literally

[slammed106]

very interesting. can't beat a jury rigging of original parts.

As far as my project is going. i haven't had much of a chance to get the under hung design off the floor yet. and i'm also changing my cad software over to catia shortly so will need to start again.
In mine, i am considering going in a different
direction, literally


what were you using?? solidworks??

[blackie_2k5]

nice fab skills tbh, god to see ppl still are into going against the grain and attmepting to better the saxo/106, most give up a long time ago when things were seen to have been done and done

[adamskiTNR]

what were you using?? solidworks??

I was using inventor for the floor mounted project. then i got solidworks. but now i can get catia, and need to learn it anyway. so thought i might as well. as it's the dogs

[axsaxoman]

have you costed the AP "pull cylinders +brackets --over £220+ vat per cylinder ,then the brackets+ reservoirs + flexibles with AP fittings --not really saxo type prices .

[adamskiTNR]

You dont have to run ap cylinders. serious money as you say.

[axsaxoman]

so are you using pull or push cylinders + what dia pistons on m/c and calipers.
I will be interested to see the final .
i could not see enough space to fit push cylinders with std dash and with other clearance problems with column and things like --heater ducts etc and as the blower motor is other side of pedal box it means no heater ,as far as i could see --not a good idea in uk ,yes you can fit a heated screen (£300)

[slammed106]

so are you using pull or push cylinders + what dia pistons on m/c and calipers.
I will be interested to see the final .
i could not see enough space to fit push cylinders with std dash and with other clearance problems with column and things like --heater ducts etc and as the blower motor is other side of pedal box it means no heater ,as far as i could see --not a good idea in uk ,yes you can fit a heated screen (£300)

er.. was that aimed at me??

mine use regular "push" cylinders and as you can see in this pic the ductwork for the screen/dash vents is still in place.. but i was planning on going for a heated screen anyway, if thats still not enough then i was planning on using a small T7design heater and mould some ducting into the dash vents and mounting it off the dash/cage bar:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v11/slammed106/2011-07-31161701.jpg

with regards to the std instruments giving clearance.. i don`t have to worry:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v11/slammed106/Photo804.jpg

[adamskiTNR]

are those wing nuts i see? lol

[slammed106]

are those wing nuts i see? lol


too right there wingnuts... the colomns been in and out more times than Ron Jeremys schlong during the mock build, gotta make life as easy as possible..

[axsaxoman]

so,no blower motor ,so not any good for a road car --which was what i said in the very first post --there is no simple way for it be done on a std car and work correctly with std dash and heater +ventilation system .
It is just possible to do if you used pull cylinders with remote reservoirs by having cylinders half in engine bay -- but too much money for most people .
If I were you i would still try to get a bigger ratio than 6-1 on the pedal -if look at some of the ready made hanging type pedal boxes they go for 7.5-1--more the better if you are not using a servo .
you didn,t answer me on caliper piston sizes --.
remember you need 80bar of line pressure at least to work well..
If I were you at this stage ,while you are mocking up fit cylinders to a gauge and check it with pedal pressure required

[slammed106]

so,no blower motor ,so not any good for a road car

well, thats YOUR opinion.. just because the car doesn`t have the factory ventilation it doesn`t mean there arent solutions to the problem...

moving South may be 1 for you to consider, it doesn`t rain everyday when you get south of newcastle....


If I were you i would still try to get a bigger ratio than 6-1 on the pedal -if look at some of the ready made hanging type pedal boxes they go for 7.5-1--more the better if you are not using a servo .

but then in using a mega ratio`d setup you end up with a LOT of pedal travel to get the equivalent master cylinder operation.. from the ones i`ve been looking at (wilwood/AP) they range from 6 up to 7.25..


you didn,t answer me on caliper piston sizes --.


because i dont know what calipers i intend to use at the minute.. depending on the piston size in them, maybe, the twin pot AP items used on the lotus elise/exige/340.. maybe the "peugeot" branded AP 4 pots...

[axsaxoman]

very aggresive reply to my post .
coming back with coments like "your opinion".just shows that you have no experience of using a car in th uk --north or south with no demisting system in all weather conditions--even on a racecar --I have to presume you are some sort of "pussy" that doesn,t go out in the rain or cold damp day .
stripped out car = tin box ,
then add cold air outside and hot sweaty driver + you will get condensation on windscreen and all bare metal surfaces,even a sligth drizzle on your race overalls when outside the car+ water on soles of boots will be enough to cause steaming up once you get in.
the work it takes to fabricate a different shaped duct from heater motor to the heater unit will be well worth the time it takes to construct,
you use a stand alone dash ,so remove the original one and you will have plenty of space to reroute the blower duct
I will say no more on the subjet and leave to guess at the important bits --seems its hard to give anybody the REAL information they need to make a good conversion .
you even say ones you have looked at range up to 7.25 ,so your 6-1 is on the very short side ,and piston dia will have a very large effect on pedlal load + travel

this is your first pedal box .it may be well to take some notice of people who have done this many times before on a many different cars + had all the problems you will encounter.

,

[slammed106]

No aggression at all.. as for driving in the rain.. oooh no!! My baby will get wet.. like i said down south we have dry days so its possible to enjoy the car without the inclement conditions...

As for taking your advice, im sorry but i choose whom i listen to carefully.. im in no doubt you have vast knowledge but tbh.. you deliver most of it on forums as a patronising arrogant man.. and when i phoned to discuss an engine build many many many years ago your phone manner seemed identical..

[Gareth_R]

just get a heated windscreen. The standard heater system is pretty poor and not that great at clearing the rest of the car anyway. As long as you can see out the front, jobs a good'un

heated screen isnt much dearer that a standard one and then its just a wee bit of wiring and a relay

[AlexB]

just get a heated windscreen. The standard heater system is pretty poor and not that great at clearing the rest of the car anyway. As long as you can see out the front, jobs a good'un

heated screen isnt much dearer that a standard one and then its just a wee bit of wiring and a relay

Or if you have polycarbs pull the wiring for the rear screen to the front

[adamskiTNR]

an easy solution to most conditions is anti fog rain x on the inside of the screen. works for us at all the rainy races so far this season.
The m/c piston size can easily be worked out with a few formula's so i would do those sums as soon as you decide on your calipers to make the design and development stage of the project far shorter

[slammed106]

adamski- definatly, ive asked a couple of people what size the lotus AP twin pots are and some say 42, some say 44mm

the reason i initially thought of these was that the lotus doesn`t come with servo assistance..

i`ve been reading thru a few peoples blogs recently (mainly the 205 boys as a few of them run bias boxes..

i saw a couple running .625 M/c`s on the front and .7 for rears (at least thats what they said) so assuming my skinny pins can provide 150lb`s of force on the pedal??

150x6 = 900lbs of force @ cylinders..

assuming valve is central...

front : 450/0.3 =1500 psi of line pressure (103bar) - (0.3 is the m/c area in sq/in)
rear : 450/0.385 = 1168 psi (80.5bar) - (0.385 is the m/c area)

like i said i dont know what calipers they were using so ned to find a few more things out...

0.625 seems small though.. maybe compensating for a lower pedal ratio? small pistoned calipers??? was led to believe i`d be looking more towards 0.75" front cylinder.....

[axsaxoman]

here we go again --patronising as usual
-if you wish to see common sense that way.
150lbs pedal pressure ?????
you think that pedal pressure is attainable repeatedly on a lap ?
thats like going to the gym + bench pressing near 70kgs with one leg
half of that is a better figure to aim for

a lotus elise is a rear engined car ,so brake set up+ balance will need to be totally different as weight distribution is totally different .
braking on fwd car will be around 80/20split to the front .

If anyone is being arrogant it is you in thinking everyone looking at this before you has got it wrong and you have the miracle cure-
-that is a far better description or arrogance .
all I have done is offered information to help you find the correct answer to your problem .
If i came accross as arrogant when you asked about engine mods it is probably due to me not aggreeing with what you were proposing ,same as with this project.

[slammed106]

Arrogance and confidence are 2 very different traits..

[adamskiTNR]

this thread is quite an interesting read with the opinions added. but try and keep the opinions on the technical side if you can

[axsaxoman]

I have done nothing else .
i consider it of technical importance to be able to see where yuor going on a wet day --which could be half the year in the uk

[slammed106]

this thread is quite an interesting read with the opinions added. but try and keep the opinions on the technical side if you can

apologies fella....

ok! finally got some replies from the 205 peeps... Spiky runs with the lotus Elise 2pots up front but has recently swapped back to a servo unit.. from looking at his photos it looks like his DIY unit was approximatly 5:1 ratio.. (its tricky to scale from a photo though lol...) he did a few track days in it so it obviously worked to a degree but not perfect.....

the other lads i spoke to and got pics from were happy with there setups.. from looking at the pics they had more pedal ratio but also used 0.625 and 0.7 cylinders...

the OBP 205 unit is listed as a 6:1 ratio..

i also caught up with Dean on facebook a whileback asking him about his floor mounted OBP unit (i was considering 1 of these but cant loose any legroom as the seat wont go back with the X in the main hoop of my cage).. he`s had a play about with master cylinder sizes and is now happy with it on road an track and again that unit is listed as a 6:1 pedal ratio...

[slammed106]

http://http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OyTWcdXyzaA

[adamskiTNR]

Nice one. Have you tried it with some pressure yet?

[slammed106]

No mate.. im still faffing about with reservoirs and mounting the bulkhead fittings once thats done i can get the pipes made up..

Finally got some calipers but need to get some 300mm discs for them and get the bells/carriers machined.. sooooo much to do lol!!

[adamskiTNR]

Which calipers are you using?

[slammed106]

i`ll be using the same(ish) calipers as Cam and Spiky on the 205forum.. the AP 2 pots.. i think theres are using the elise/exige/vx220 sized 285mm discs..

but when i spoke to AP they told me mine were machined to suit a 300x26mm disc..

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v11/slammed106/2011-09-11121756.jpg