Best gearbox for saxo trackcar??

[jzink]

Having spoke to John at GMC then so guys at Mallory park on Saturday realise that my vts ratios/gearbox isn't suited to a track car but cant afford the £1200+ for GMC close ratio box! I have been looking online as have been recommended to use the 106 1.4xsi box as only need car to do 120mph as is fast enough for most uk tracks as don't like silverstone! Also s1 106rallye my car runs 150+ bhp and revs to 7800rpm on vts 15's alloys. have been told different things so wanted advise from people in the know can u just change final drive (5th gear) as lowers all ratios as know my gearbox is in good condition or is it better to swap boxes completely? As then would have to get xsi box reconditioned? My vts box has new bearing seals etc 2 track days ago! Also finally have been given various gearbox codes but I anyone knows or definate what code xsi 1.4 and s1 rally box are! Any advice is appreciated

[Dave_P]

Save up for a Quaife gear kit/atb diff.

Regardless of which fd you'd otherwise use the o/e "sport" gearset has crap ratios.

[AndySAXO]

an 1.4 xsi box or s1 1.3 rallye box are the best as they have the smallest crown wheel so allows it to pick up a lot faster.

there not real close ratio MA box, it all down to the crown wheel and the teeth on that,

so to get around that with a N/A saxo is to get a box that allows it to be rev faster so to speak so you can get back in the power band faster.

[AndySAXO]

have to say if you have not got a ATB diff yet get one of them well worth bit of kit, can fell it just pull you though the corner.

but if i want to get a full gearset from quiafe i would love the dog set :P

[jzink]

Can't afford quaiffe and box as is best part of £2k fitted is it worth changing the crown wheel then how much difference will it make? My car performed well at Mallory and surprised me as managed to catch and pass a 106 rallye s1 with 16 valve engine with c2 head and supercharger running 205bhp it had better pull I low down in 2nd due to charger and xsi box but on cam I was quicker and even though he had Tarmac spec coil over suspension and higher spec brakes! He was gutted when realised nine was still an na engine

[AlexB]

1400 xsi box

Its the best final drive imo on a 16v and is what a lot on here will agree
14/60 is awesome and not too short for a lot of uk tracks

Also a quaife is more like 1200 not 2k diff 600 build 3/400 depending on where and the box price to start

My gripper came in under 1600 and thats 1100 quid for the diff alone

[jzink]

Sorry meant the quaife with gmc shirt ratio box is £2k can get quaiffe for £550 all in

[badwool]

i was wondering this also but seems the xsi boxes are hard to come by

[jzink]

Not as hard as rallye ph1 box but that is to short for me

[Steffrallye]

or do what ive done, BE4 gearbox means you have strenght and 205 1.6 GTi internals so that i still have short ratios, BE box was £80. 205 box was free and then the price of some new bearings, think 50

[jzink]

Whats a be gearbox?

[Steffrallye]

A BE gearbox is what 205,picassos,berlingo,C2 and dervs run. Much stronger gearbox than the MA chocolate box and its what all the 205 boys run plus better shafts. You have to make or buy new mounts and clutch cable and driveshaft mind.

A BE4 box is the one that fits the TU block, the others wont. But the standard gearing is to long, thats why ive replaced mine with 1.6 205 gti gearing as this is simlar to 106 s2 rallye ratios.

http://i135.photobucket.com/albums/q154/pugxsi/IMG_4419.jpg

[DanGT]

Looks nice that mate, alot of faff if you go through a couple of 'boxes a season tho :D

Does no-one use the 1.1 gearboxes for the shorter ratios, or are they not man enough?

[dannygti]

like dave p said, all the "sports" ratios are the same, so not that great for track car with n/a engine. the only way round this problem is a proper gearkit which alters the GEAR RATIOS. all the above just mean changing final drive. will make things better but far from perfect.

[axsaxoman]

A BE gearbox is what 205,picassos,berlingo,C2 and dervs run. Much stronger gearbox than the MA chocolate box and its what all the 205 boys run plus better shafts. You have to make or buy new mounts and clutch cable and driveshaft mind.

A BE4 box is the one that fits the TU block, the others wont. But the standard gearing is to long, thats why ive replaced mine with 1.6 205 gti gearing as this is simlar to 106 s2 rallye ratios.

http://i135.photobucket.com/albums/q154/pugxsi/IMG_4419.jpg
same scenario as an MA box -------there are no std ratios on any road car that will be anything like correct for a pure track car.
If touring cars with 300bhp use a 6 or 7 speed box and still have topgear flat out at rev limter 8000 at around 135 ,then five speeds with alot higher gearing and half the ghp is never going to give best performance .
its simple drop your ratios by 25% and you 25% more power at wheels ,so a 160bhp car pulls like a 200bhp car with the higher ratios.
c/r gear kit + lsd is worht over 5 secs per lap at knockhill,when compared to a std ratio set-up

[c7borg]

Dave, just out of interest what final drive do you run with your quaife gearset?

and is the final drive an easy swap out like the 205 gearboxes?

[solvi]

the BE is the way to go..!!!

but im using the 13x59 reinforced final drive. whith the cup box original box..

its a lot beter than the original box ..in estoril track at the long strait is was made in 4 and now is in 5 ..were was 2 now i can make it on 3..

still nead motor....my car itsnot fast ...i was kiled by a camed 106 8valves??

still not belive...

[solvi]

the BE is the way to go..!!!

but im using the 13x59 reinforced final drive. whith the cup box original box..

its a lot beter than the original box ..in estoril track at the long strait is was made in 4 and now is in 5 ..were was 2 now i can make it on 3..

still nead motor....my car itsnot fast ...i was kiled by a camed 106 8valves??

still not belive...

[Dave_P]

Dave, just out of interest what final drive do you run with your quaife gearset?

and is the final drive an easy swap out like the 205 gearboxes?
Me? I run a gripper dog box with gripper s/c FD, the FD was a 4.2 but It should be a 3.9 now allowing around 128mph in 5th @ 9k rpm.

[c7borg]

Me? I run a gripper dog box with gripper s/c FD, the FD was a 4.2 but It should be a 3.9 now allowing around 128mph in 5th @ 9k rpm.
Thanks for that..That's quite a bit of kit, are they in the standard casing and I'm guess they're a big step up from the quaife gear sets?

[Dave_P]

Std casing but probably tickled internally for clearance. Quaife do a dog box too.

[axsaxoman]

no need for BE box if you are running n/a at any power level ----just will cost alot more to do ,with all the other mods required + its alot heavier as well,only possible tech advantage is if you go with a plate dif ,then crown wheels are bolt on and there are more plates in a BE dif ,but if its a pure track car ,then you will not find correct dif ratio on any std box ,so you have to buy them anyway,no matter which box you choose.
we have lots of customers running 220+ @wheels with ma boxs and they do not destroy them that freuently ,and with n/a you will never have the torque of a boosted car + its torque that detroys box,s
i still maintain for most track day cars your best all round option ,considering price etc is an ma + gear kit + lsd .
If you want to hunt about there was an ax 4x4 made which used a much lower final drive ratio --maybe you can find one

[c7borg]

no need for BE box if you are running n/a at any power level ----just will cost alot more to do ,with all the other mods required + its alot heavier as well,only possible tech advantage is if you go with a plate dif ,then crown wheels are bolt on and there are more plates in a BE dif ,but if its a pure track car ,then you will not find correct dif ratio on any std box ,so you have to buy them anyway,no matter which box you choose.
we have lots of customers running 220+ @wheels with ma boxs and they do not destroy them that freuently ,and with n/a you will never have the torque of a boosted car + its torque that detroys box,s
i still maintain for most track day cars your best all round option ,considering price etc is an ma + gear kit + lsd .
If you want to hunt about there was an ax 4x4 made which used a much lower final drive ratio --maybe you can find one

many thanks for that it was really useful.

[c7borg]

Sorry forgot to ask will the gear kit alone help for quicker gearshifts?

[Dave_P]

If you want quick gear shifts you need a dog box, a Quaife gear kit still uses std syncro's so makes no change to gear change times.

[axsaxoman]

dog boxs are quicker shifts ,but ,no good for road use and if you don,t change correctly you will damage the dogs quicker than you will wear the synchro,s. in a normal box .
thats why dog boxs are not fitted to std cars and paddle sift exoctic cars or electronic operated type boxs fitted to road cars are still synchro .
it is nearly impossible to drive at less than full power with a dog box and get smooth gear changes with no jerking or clunks.
they are for competion and not for a semi road car.
If you have g/change problems on a std g/box ,then you will definativly have problems with a dog box ,it requires more skill and rpm matching to get good changes than a synchro box does.
try changing up+ down your std box from first to 5th with no clutch ,when you can do that seamlessly ,then you are ready for a dog box ,its all about mathcing the rpms for the next gear you wish to use to get the best from them .
a full spec squential box with computer control will not allow you to select next gear unless the rpm is correct ,as they use dog engagment and if rpm not matched will damge things . if you go dog then consider as a minimum an ignition cut coupled to the gear change

[Dave_P]

The thread is titled "best gearbox for saxo track car" John.

I have no problem driving with my dog box on the road and I don't have to match rpm either, I don't understand why your even mentioning that John as it's not an issue unless you drive a classic car with a non syncro box. As long as you change gear quickly with a dog box it's fine, if you don't it'll crunch.

[c7borg]

cool, thanks for that. I don't think I could justify buying a dog box for a Saxo that I paid £1k for :) so I'll just pretend with no clutch ;)

[solvi]

the www.bacciromano.com

they have vry intresting parts for our boxes...

[axsaxoman]

I agree with you the title is "best g/box for track car"
there is only one answer to that
full squential ,close ratio ,lsd + low final drive ratio
as far as dog engagment goes .I am merely pointing out to the readers ,most of which have never used a dog box ,the downsides ,and that you must drive it a certain way or it will not last and will not be pleaseant to use in every day driving ,
you know as well as i do that what alot of posters consider a track car is really a compromise road+ track ,the biggest compromise is always money ,hence why I see no point in going BE with N/a engine with all the other things you have to change,and no better choice of ratios from std pug/cit g/boxs

[c7borg]

I agree with you, I suppose when your lap times hit a brick wall and you've tried everything cheaper then the quaife gearkit and diff seem the best value for money option to get the times down (unless you're already having reliablity issues with your standard options)

[jzink]

Guys let's not argue everyone can have an opinion mine is attack only cat no road use but budget was my main Concern so no bow but in future will get a quaffie def and maybe longterm better ratios but this would be in a few yes time as buying a house now really useful info on her though thanks

[c7borg]

whats attack?

[jzink]

Sorry should say a track car only spell checker on iPhone

[axsaxoman]

watched your day at castle combe --yes save up for a c/r kit + a dif

[jzink]

watched your day at castle combe --yes save up for a c/r kit + a dif

So are u saying I was slow?!

[jzink]

Castle combe 1.30pm session


YouTube - ‪castle combe action day 1.30pm session 11.6.11. saxo vts‬‏

[axsaxoman]

no directly ,what i am saying is i can see how much quicker you would be with correct gearing and a dif
I am suprised they allow you to overtake on the right ,if you got it wrong up the inside of a car you are overtaking on a corner you would wipe them out as well .
its normal to nly allow overtaking on the left hand side on a clockwise circuit on track days for that very reason .
I am not impuning your driving in any way as I can see your not close to the limit ,but a less skilled driver on the limit would indeed pose a great threat tothose he was outbraking into a corner and going up the inside --

[jzink]

Is overtaking on the right only no the left there which they state in briefings and black flag if not adhered to, which I agree is weird on a clockwise circuit and illogical but have to obey the rules!

[axsaxoman]

maybe they figure that he car you cut up and out brake into the corner will chicken and back off --.
wouldn,t happen at knockhill if they allowed such antics--most of the hot hatch drivers and definatley of "death and glory"

[solvi]

now i use ma box 13/59 difrencial 4.53 whith "sport " ratios..i happy whith it besides it breaks alot.
there are alot more racing parts for BE than for the MA.
the last evolucion on saxo circuit cups used BE whith sport ratios and a plate type diff.

if going BE4 whith the 1.6gti internal what is the best final to use to retain similar caractristics off the 4.53 MA gearbox??

[solvi]

any one?

there is a local guy that sells a be4 whit 206rc internals , anyone tryed this one?

[KamRacing]

From that video you would be wise to fit a plate LSD asap. That will significantly improve corner exit speed. You can hear the car struggling for traction.

[solvi]

iv readed from citroen that one off the difrences from the be3 to be4 is a difrent angle to best suit the dw8 engines...

also spoox? seling a kind off vibratecnic suport but whith some angle to best suit be4r!!!??

anyone one exprienced this suport angle thing whith be4r and vibratecnics suport??



hope my english is untherstandable ..cause some times dont get any anwser to topics!!

[solvi]

hi to all..

my saxo when shift from 4 to 3 on hard bracking , you can hear the gearbox claiming for help from a mile way...

it just go whith a VERY LOUD iiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii until you drop a bit more rpm.

what is wrong inside the box??
its is the syncro ring in the 3 gear that make that noise???

are the synro rings equal (2 types)?
ill put new syncro rings and 2 and 3 gear...it will be suficient?
what the best gearbox oil spec ?

thanks. let us learn more abaut the MA BOX..

[jzink]

From that video you would be wise to fit a plate LSD asap. That will significantly improve corner exit speed. You can hear the car struggling for traction.
lol would love an lsd or quaiffe but haven't got the money

[solvi]

lol would love an lsd or quaiffe but haven't got the money

you already have the 13x59 final??

[solvi]

nead info on "special" be4r vibratecnics whith angle??

the normal vibratecnics ones will not fit??

[solvi]

hi to all..

my saxo when shift from 4 to 3 on hard bracking , you can hear the gearbox claiming for help from a mile way...

it just go whith a VERY LOUD iiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii until you drop a bit more rpm.

what is wrong inside the box??
its is the syncro ring in the 3 gear that make that noise???

are the synro rings equal (2 types)?
ill put new syncro rings and 2 and 3 gear...it will be suficient?
what the best gearbox oil spec ?

thanks. let us learn more abaut the MA BOX..


so the box is already fixed ...do it youself.

have to open the cases twise because i forgot a spring..
i thing the noise came from a griped bearing...also change all the syncro rings..
tomorow will put the box on the car and hope it go ok.

ill put fotos on a step by step ma box repair...