Sump baffle...

[Alex]

As i'm rolling on 888's and for piece of mind i've been thinking about getting a sump baffle,

Just trying to round up the pro & cons and looking for recommendations.

Hiflowheads:
Pro - Just a swap, Cheapest.
Con - Not sure on design, ?

Constella:
Pro - Similar to the pug sport, has trapdoors.
Con - Uses a sandwhich design to fit, Bit more tricky to seal and reseal if pan is off again.

Peugeot:
Pro - Has trapdoors, race proven?
Con - Changing crank bolts? Skill level needed and price.


Any input to aid the decision would be good :)
Also if anyone has pictures of the hiflowheads one.

[wolf_gsxr]

Money and skill no object the pug sport one is the best. Bur the constella is the best compromise. Its cheaper and it does the job. Unless you were doing serious rallying Id use the constella. No idea on the hi flow one

[Jay_]

can I ask....what is a baffled sump? I know what the sump is....

[Era]

i use the pugsport one, personally i'd just pay to take it to someone else to fit so the bolts are done right. as people always say a baffled sump is cheap insurance vs. the alternative if something went wrong!

jay - baffled sump effectively splits your sump into smaller compartments so that when cornering hard the oil doesn't all wash up one end of the sump and possibly starve your oil pump = no oil feed to the rest of the engine

a bit like this but the design changes

http://www.walkers-garage.co.uk/images/baffled-sump-lg.jpg

[raunchz]

I'd go for Constella if given the choice

[AlexB]

Im looking at a constella one for mine

Nice fitting guide on the rr and no messing with crank bolts so thats the one for me i think

didnt know high flow made one tbh the pugsport is a good bit of kit but id personally not wanna disturb the crank bolts if i can avoid it

[sexy_gt]

i run pusport one, bought new so seals was perfect. not hard to fit. i had engine on the transmission stand, fliped it 180 and got on with it. killed a bottom end at cadwell whilst doing 1:50 laps (chris curve very long right hander 100mph), now doing 144's lol

stew

[Barry123]

Question... why do you need to mess about the crank bolts to fit a baffled sump!?

[raunchz]

Question... why do you need to mess about the crank bolts to fit a baffled sump!?

Only on the Peugeot sport ones as they attach to the bottom of the engine using the crank bolts.

Constella's baffle attaches by sandwiching itself in-between the engine and sump and uses the sump bolts to keep it in place

[Barry123]

ahhhh. sounds a ballache...

[sexy_gt]

Only on the Peugeot sport ones as they attach to the bottom of the engine using the crank bolts.

Constella's baffle attaches by sandwiching itself in-between the engine and sump and uses the sump bolts to keep it in place

correct

ahhhh. sounds a ballache...

slightly but the better fitting once fitted of the 3 on the market ;)

[jsdvtr]

Ive got a baffled sump i bought off andyk and its just got welded sheeting of metal with rubber flaps.

[Mathias]

I'm also wanting a constella item, worth calling and saying we want say 5 for a bit of discount if we can get a few more interested?

[AndySAXO]

I use a hi flow heads one very simple desgin and dose the job it there for.

It welded in place with gaps around the metal sheet to allow flow around it.

Works for me, and was done in a few days sent back with the sump cleaned and painted black.

[Mathias]

I use a hi flow heads one very simple desgin and dose the job it there for.

It welded in place with gaps around the metal sheet to allow flow around it.

Works for me, and was done in a few days sent back with the sump cleaned and painted black.

How much was that if you don't mind me asking?

[AndySAXO]

80 quid I think... That was posted back.

[Mathias]

Have you got a pic when it was sent back?

[AndySAXO]

No I forgot to take any I just wanting to the engine biult at the time.

[AlexB]

Ive got a baffled sump i bought off andyk and its just got welded sheeting of metal with rubber flaps.

very basic but will have some form of effect

[raunchz]

I'm also wanting a constella item, worth calling and saying we want say 5 for a bit of discount if we can get a few more interested?

They were doing them for £130ish recently - worth a phone call and still seeing if they can do them at that sort of price.

At that price is a bargain in my eyes - but pretty simple to make yourself but not worth the hassle for the sake of saving £100 and messing around with measurements yourself.

[Mathias]

They were doing them for £130ish recently - worth a phone call and still seeing if they can do them at that sort of price.

At that price is a bargain in my eyes - but pretty simple to make yourself but not worth the hassle for the sake of saving £100 and messing around with measurements yourself.

Already done and they have gone back up to 175ish now :n:

May be worth getting a hi flow one for The money

[mark1311]

might have to have a look into making a batch of these up hmm..

[Ross]

I run a constella one - really have had no issues sealing the sump. I'd recommend it :)

[AndySAXO]

Yer mark be easy to copy the hi flow one.

[mark1311]

sweet will email hiflow see if they have a pic first. if theres intrested of a few then i will defo look into doing one, and buy one my self from hi flow then knock some up,

[adamskiTNR]

First i would test the hi flow one, or get feedback from somebody that has used one. then make sure the copy is exact, apertures etc. oil feeds and starvation is quite a major thing if it goes tits up, especially on an expensive build

[AndySAXO]

I have said I am using one of them since I biult my engine well over a year ago.

Done about 5 track days, trip to the ring.... Seem good to me, had no problems as of yet.

[adamskiTNR]

cool, sounds like a bargain then

[AndySAXO]

It is very simple in design, could be made cheaper that the 80 quid I paid I think.

[Mathias]

i'd be interested mark if it happens :)

[unreal106]

we could be on to something first I have 1 sump ready here for moking up on!

[mark1311]

i'd be interested mark if it happens :)

sweet. am in need of 2 anyways lol.

we could be on to something first I have 1 sump ready here for moking up on!

sounds good, iicr all the saxo engine sumps are the same? or the 16v different? from a sales pov will make a big differance for me? if am to put this into prodoction.

i will email hiflow heads see if they have a picture so i can see exaclty what theres is like, then if am happy to make them i will send a sump off to them got one made, then can work myn out from there.

how many people realistilcy wont one on here?

[Mathias]

what price we talking? im pretty sure im in though

[Alex]

I've been in contact with Constella, they are willing to do a group buy.
Also asked if theirs could be modified to be a weld in instead.

[mark1311]

what price we talking? im pretty sure im in though

if hiflow can do them for 70/80 quid i would of thought should be able to easy do them for 50/60

I've been in contact with Constella, they are willing to do a group buy.
Also asked if theirs could be modified to be a weld in instead.

looking at the pics of this could very easy be welded instead, if there not wonting to make it weld i would quite happy for people to post there sump and baffle up to be welded in,...

[Alex]

looking at the pics of this could very easy be welded instead, if there not wonting to make it weld i would quite happy for people to post there sump and baffle up to be welded in,...

Hopefully they can sort something, be bonus if it works out cheaper as a weld in and easier to fit.

[jpsaxo]

Pics of my pugsport one for reference lads...

http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l58/jpsaxo/Photo-0036.jpg

http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l58/jpsaxo/Phhoto-0031.jpg

http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l58/jpsaxo/Phhoto-0032.jpg

http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l58/jpsaxo/Phhoto-0033.jpg

http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l58/jpsaxo/Phhoto-0034.jpg

[adamskiTNR]

That's the shit right there

[Jungle]

sweet. am in need of 2 anyways lol.



sounds good, iicr all the saxo engine sumps are the same? or the 16v different? from a sales pov will make a big differance for me? if am to put this into prodoction.

i will email hiflow heads see if they have a picture so i can see exaclty what theres is like, then if am happy to make them i will send a sump off to them got one made, then can work myn out from there.

how many people realistilcy wont one on here?

I want one :)

[axsaxoman]

pictures of the welded in version --showing the trap doors etc?

[jpsaxo]

I got my baffled sump from John @ GMC btw lads :)

[Alex]

Never heard back from hiflow, Guess too many people emailed in asking for pictures :P

Constella are busy so they haven't had a chance to look into a weld in version.
Shame as I don't want to buy one to only cut half of it off.

[AlexB]

Didnt think constella ones needed cutting??

[raunchz]

They dont need cutting.

Presumably he wants to cut off the mounting which bolts in-between bottom end and sump, and then weld the leftover plates into the sump?!

[Alex]

They dont need cutting.

Presumably he wants to cut off the mounting which bolts in-between bottom end and sump, and then weld the leftover plates into the sump?!

This is what i meant :)
Looking at it more I don't think the constella could be welded as you wouldn't be able to get it back on with the top plate.

Will confirm if they can do the discount again.

[AlexB]

why would you want to weld it in??

it bolts in and is dead easy that way welding it adds hassle

[axsaxoman]

pictures of these other types of baffle kits??

[AndySAXO]

Weld not that hard, and easy when taking the engine back apart for any reason.

I just wanted a baffle sump which does the job and not over complicated in design

[AlexB]

Seriously tough how many times will you need to remove it?
I havent ever needed to remove a sump apart for to clean doing a hg change

[raunchz]

Buy Constella kit, fit (with no cutting), enjoy and don't worry :)

Job done and cheap insurance for the engine

[Alex]

why would you want to weld it in??

it bolts in and is dead easy that way welding it adds hassle

I was thinking more in terms of simplicity.
I'd be worried about f**king something up if i had to remove the oil pump, was hoping a weld in would avoid this need.

[Alex]

pictures of these other types of baffle kits??

Never had a reply hiflow.

[AndySAXO]

Alex if you did then it dose make life a lot easier if you did.

I paid 80 quid and got a bafflesld sump.... Nice and simple, I bet mark could make them.

[AlexB]

Compared to the proper trapdoor units that only flow one way like pugsport and constella they arent as good though

Yea it limits the flow but oil will still run away around the welded plates wereas a trapdoored one wont allow that

[Gandi699]

Someone competant with a welder could make a killing on here if they made their own and supplied it as a kit/bolt in

[deano_123]

question on the constella baffles

instead of it being sandwiched between block and sump causing possible sealing issues could it be welded to the sump or is it alloy?

[Ross]

question on the constella baffles

instead of it being sandwiched between block and sump causing possible sealing issues could it be welded to the sump or is it alloy?

It really doesn't have any sealing issues. I've ran a constella one for 2 years and it's been pretty much the only place oil hasn't sprung from :p

[deano_123]

It really doesn't have any sealing issues. I've ran a constella one for 2 years and it's been pretty much the only place oil hasn't sprung from :p

good to know, are you happy with it? have they revised the design since you bought yours? is it alloy?

[Ross]

tbh, i can't answer the question about if they've changed it - I don't know. Mine is stainless. I'm very happy with it - very well constructed, has the flap that some dont, and never had any warnings about low oil pressure so have to presume either I'm not driving hard enough or it works well - I'd like to think the latter ;)

[jsdvtr]

Right, ive had this baffled sump for a while now which i bought on here from andyk iirc. Just wanted some opinions whether to use it on my new engine-

http://i231.photobucket.com/albums/ee257/jsdvtr/20130209_165121_zpse3bb4c59.jpg
http://i231.photobucket.com/albums/ee257/jsdvtr/20130209_165128_zps372f69f2.jpg
http://i231.photobucket.com/albums/ee257/jsdvtr/20130209_165135_zps50e10c80.jpg

[Sandy309]

If you're serious about your engine, get the Peugeot Sport one, it's the best made, works perfectly (I've never had oil surge in any of my TUs, even hillclimbers on super soft slicks going up on two wheels) and it's not that dear for the quality of what you get. We're very well kitted up for making gear like this, but it wouldn't be worth us trying to replicate it. I don't fit their rubber seal, it tends to get cut in half and pieces will head for the pick up strainer!
Otherwise, a simple baffle around the pick up neatly welded in as shown, will take about an hour to make and the reality is, TUs very rarely truly oil surge. The most common killer is excessive sealant getting into the pick up, which is often present with sandwiched baffle kits like the Constella. The welds fracture on that one too, example of one that I saw:

http://www.106rallyeforum.com/forum2008/showpost.php?p=817451&postcount=27

The pick up of that engine was chock full of black sealant.

[AlexB]

Ive used 1.5D sump gaskets so i have no sealant on my sump

Thats what constella advised me to do when fitting so sealant issues will be people ignoring that advice

[Jimmy-Boy]

Fuck sake only ordered a constella one a couple of weeks ago have spent £££'s if i'd of known they were shit i would have got the pugsport one :/ should i try n get a refund and fit a pugsport?

[e8_pqck]

Fuck sake only ordered a constella one a couple of weeks ago have spent £££'s if i'd of known they were shit i would have got the pugsport one :/ should i try n get a refund and fit a pugsport?

was thinking the same. However, i did notice the issue with the trap door clashing and staying open so im surprised they never fixed that - must be an easy fix to reposition it, especially when they were told about it some time ago.

[AlexB]

I wouldnt say theyre shit

I have one and its serving me well
Its not clashing as far as ive noticed it hasnt got sealant issues ect

Im happy with mine tbh

[Jimmy-Boy]

I wouldnt say theyre shit

I have one and its serving me well
Its not clashing as far as ive noticed it hasnt got sealant issues ect

Im happy with mine tbh

know it appeared to look good and fit well, but in all honesty thats not what i brought it for... The link sandy produced is hardly quailty convincing!

[AlexB]

Theres allways anomolies and things that break

Im not too concerned one broke
It didnt become totally free
And the sump breaking isnt what lead to the engine failiure that was due to the sealant that had been used to fit which rob told me on 3 occasions before i fitted mine to not do

I wont be rushing off to buy a different one tbh

[Steph_at_constella]

No offence meant here sandy so please don't take it as any.

But whats to say it wasn't broken upon removal? That is a shocking amount of sealant on there, and as Alex says, we advise EVERYONE to use gaskets. To the point that I have no less than 4 sat on my shelf at any one time in case of emergencies.

We fit them to ALL our own 106 engines we build, and have no issues, never had one break on us removing them either. Or in general tbh. Look at the people who have spent masses of money on their engines who use our baffles.

Also please note we supply to MANY OTHER BUILDERS. Most recently Hiflow heads, GMC, Larton Engine Developments, Oval Race Preparation etc etc.


Also the trap door, Opens but not fully, it doesn't need to. It allows the oil into the pick up area but not out, which is what the baffle is designed to do.

[wadoryu]

This is the best part of this forum, decent advice from proper users, let the debate begin :y:

[Ross]

If you're serious about your engine, get the Peugeot Sport one, it's the best made, works perfectly (I've never had oil surge in any of my TUs, even hillclimbers on super soft slicks going up on two wheels) and it's not that dear for the quality of what you get. We're very well kitted up for making gear like this, but it wouldn't be worth us trying to replicate it. I don't fit their rubber seal, it tends to get cut in half and pieces will head for the pick up strainer!
Otherwise, a simple baffle around the pick up neatly welded in as shown, will take about an hour to make and the reality is, TUs very rarely truly oil surge. The most common killer is excessive sealant getting into the pick up, which is often present with sandwiched baffle kits like the Constella. The welds fracture on that one too, example of one that I saw:

http://www.106rallyeforum.com/forum2008/showpost.php?p=817451&postcount=27

The pick up of that engine was chock full of black sealant.

So sandy what's potentially happened here is the user fitting it used excessive sealant (against Constellas direct advice), fitted it without checking the trap door operation, and at the point of removal it's possible is it not that you broke the welds levering the baffle against the excess sealant. Is that plausible?

And with the greatest of respect, the Constella baffles are in a lot more engines that genuine Peugeot sport items - even if 1% of baffles had a problem you'll see five times as many faults with Constellas one if they sell five times more than Peugeot sport.

All I can say from personal experience is mine has served me fine. It's been on and off three times now, and is protecting an engine that would cost many thousands of pounds to replace. I have piece of mind. But then again - my baffle wasn't fitted by someone who can't follow instructions and is devoid of all common sense...

[jsdvtr]

I was thinking about getting a constella one once i have some more money.

Alex where did you get the diesel gasket from? Peugeot? Sounds better than worrying about if sealed the sump ok.

[Steph_at_constella]

I was thinking about getting a constella one once i have some more money.

Alex where did you get the diesel gasket from? Peugeot? Sounds better than worrying about if sealed the sump ok.

He got them from me and ended up using 4 as he somehow managed to fuck the first two up! haha

[Jimmy-Boy]

Very reassuring posts from both steph and ross, can't wait to get out on track and try it now!

[jsdvtr]

Think i may order a constella one towards the end of getting the car running.

Hiow much are the gaskets on there own? May use these rather than sealant allthough ive just fitted it back on haha.

[Steph_at_constella]

I do gaskets at £16.50 each.

Good quality none of this falls apart shite you get with some gaskets now

[Ross]

FYI - my sump is on with sealant not gaskets. But like I said, was built by a race engine builder not a chef competing in the Great British Bake Off.

If it came off again (and I bloody hope it doesn't have to anytime soon) I'd probably use the paper gaskets myself as I don't know my own limits.

[Sandy309]

Each weld is about half an inch long and should be able to take the compressive load of a flat blade screwdriver beneath it, but either way you can clearly see that the breakage is not recent. This engine had a HFH head, which is another story, so possibly supplied by them, I don't have any information on who assembled it. This engine didn't actually fail, but clearly if the other tags had broken free, all hell would have broken lose. There is another case that did result in engine failure, that I know Constella are aware of where the pick up became blocked and in a terrible irony, starved the engine of oil.

The choice thankfully exists and there are clearly people here who believe straw poll statistics override any design or quality issues and that's fine for them and "MANY OTHER BUILDERS", but not for me I'm afraid. Hopefully most people will appreciate this information being given, even if it they don't wish to be guided by it.

[jpsaxo]

I think the term "fit and forget" is best used here. With the pugsport you just fit it and forget about it as its fixed in place and doesn't require sealant which *potentially* could cause issues.

At the end of the day building reliability into an engine build is about removing as many whats,if's and buts as possible - the pugsport does this.

[AlexB]

He got them from me and ended up using 4 as he somehow managed to fuck the first two up! haha

I only fucked up 1
I was trying to be clever and maneuver it round without removing the baffle lol
Bought 2 more so i had a spare
Thats now in the nanaGTI


As for the debate about them
I fit and forgot mine
Pretty sure ross wasnt really checking his
I know at least 4 or 5 people with them and all are ok

Its a case of if theres 5 times more of a product on the market you will see 5 times more failiures
I know of a lot more constella sumps out there than pugsports
It doesnt make them worse

As for this re occuring comments about sealant being the main issue

CONSTELLA SAY DO NOT USE SEALANT USE THE 106 DIESEL SUMP GASKETS
Rob told me several times before i fitted mine to my engine

Tbh i would rather trust constella over other companies ive dealt with
And compared to a sump ive seen done by DES developments i have recipts for over 200 quid for tbh the constella item is a bargain... lol

[Ross]

Yeah it's safe to say mine was fitted, and then forgotten about until this debate came up ;) that's fit and forget surely? ;)

I'm pushing well in excess of 400bhp this year and Its safe to say I've not scrimped on parts. The difference in cost of the Peugeot sport item and the Constella one is negligible.

If I didn't fit a Peugeot sport one correctly I'd not then post up a thread slagging off Peugeot sport Sandy - and I'm a little surprised to see you do that to Constella to be honest.

[deano_123]

never had an issue my constella baffle

the majority were put off the pugsport baffle as it connects to the crank if i remember correctly

[jpsaxo]

Not really fit and forget when there's always the *chance* there could be a problem with the seal - if it's fitted with the sealant that is

Ross - Sandys posting his own experiences with a product

[AlexB]

IF josh
And if you do yout ignoring the manufacturers instructions

Its like fitting a pugsport to your crank bolts and guessing the torque on the bolts....

[jpsaxo]

IF josh
And if you do yout ignoring the manufacturers instructions

Its like fitting a pugsport to your crank bolts and guessing the torque on the bolts....

Yup yup... another advantage of the pugsport is that you don't need to re-seal or buy a new seal every time the sump comes off

[piggy123]

I'll be going pugsport for sure :)

[AlexB]

Dont need to buy a new gasket with constellas if you arent a ham fisted idiot
Ive had my sump off since to do a full oil change lol

And pugsports use sealant which kills engines....

[jpsaxo]

Mine doesn't use any form of sealent, it's just the metal baffle...

[AlexB]

Still seal the sump onto the block josh
Thats where the excess sealant sandy refers too comes from piling loads on there

Pugsport could do exactly the same
Hell standard could do the same

[e8_pqck]

Mine doesn't use any form of sealent, it's just the metal baffle...

How is that josh? Have the mating surfaces been machined or something?

[AlexB]

How is that josh? Have the mating surfaces been machined or something?

It bolts internally so no silicon is needed to seal it any other place than standard round the sump

But still if your a bit happy with it for that you can introduce issues of it falling away and blocking the pickup

I will ALLWAYS use the 1.5D gaskets even on a stock sump just to play safe

[Sandy309]

If I didn't fit a Peugeot sport one correctly I'd not then post up a thread slagging off Peugeot sport Sandy - and I'm a little surprised to see you do that to Constella to be honest.

I'm a little surprised Ross that you and Alex are using this as a stick to beat me with! I would hope you'd know that I'm very particular about product quality and there are alot of products that are widely used on this forum, that won't be found in my competition engines, because of my reservations or problems I've seen, that better products don't give. What I've done is illustrate issues that can occur with that kit and why I believe the PS kit is worth the price.
Maybe you think my standards are unreasonably high or that I'm arrogant about it, but in the work that I do, to achieve the level of performance and reliability that's expected of me, I have to be that way. It may be overkill for fast road/trackday motors, but in serious competition engines, it's what sets the best apart from the norm.

[AlexB]

Im not beating you with the info like a stick
Or at least noy intending too

Im just trying to put across that the issue you found that actually caused the engine failiure is due to the mongole who fitted it directly ignoring constellas instructions to fit it and that the same issue can be caused if your too liberal with that shit on a standard sump (meaning any time the sump has been sealed it could happen) im not saying it will with an engine youve built but whats to stop anyone with no mechanical nowledge whipping a sump off for some reason and just plastering far too much on

The weld failing i have only seen that one you pictured like it
But if someone moronic has fitted it whos to say they didnt break them trying to fit it without removing the pump or something like that

Im just trying to put across that one failiure on a product where there are a fair few out there wont put me off
Especially with no more info that "i took it apart to find this" as you have no idea if it was fitted damaged or anyrhing

[Ross]

I can't really add to Alex's comments much sandy. I have no personal gain from defending Constellas baffle but I stand by my case that in an engine build like mine, deep into 5 figures, and heading towards 300bhp per litre, "scrimping" on an engine part isn't really an option and I'd like to think I've made smart choices.

My engine builder (who's built some of the most reliable huge horsepower engines in Europe) rates it.

If you're opinion differs after seeing that one example, that's up to you. But with respect (sincerely, with respect) I value your opinion. But I value my own engine builders also.

[106maxi]

Not a risk I'd be willing to take.
Pug Sport in the last engine, Pug Sport in the next engine.

[Sandy309]

Sorry Alex, but this is getting a bit confused! The engine I posted pics of, had not failed, but was certainly close to it. The weld breaks look to me like fatigue in the brittle metal around the weld, a problem I had anticipated when I first saw the design (you can see my much earlier comments in that linked thread). TIG welds or forming the tags from the flange section instead, ideally with a reinforcing fold, would probably prevent that happening.

The engine failure I mentioned was a separate case, a circuit racer friend of mine who had the rubber seal fall apart and pieces of it blocked the pick up, causing oil starvation, quickly resulting in rod failure (PEC rods) and virtual total engine destruction.

I prefer sealant to a gasket on the sump, it tends to last better if you use the right stuff and apply it judiciously. The Loctite formulation I use goes off pretty quick, only really enough time to bolt down the sump pan itself, if you had to apply it to two sides of the baffle, fit the oil pump and then fit the sump (without any oily finger touches!), you'd struggle.

I also don't like the welded sump method usually seen on Longman engines (and some other specialist engines I've had in), the blind section is near impossible to completely clean of old oil and debris during a rebuild, due to lack of access. There is another Peugeot Sport baffle kit I've seen on some of these engines, that has a sandwich plate, windage tray bolted to the mains and welded baffles in the pan, that's just about the worst of all the designs in one, but looks like it would run inverted!

[Steph_at_constella]

Sorry Alex, but this is getting a bit confused! The engine I posted pics of, had not failed, but was certainly close to it. The weld breaks look to me like fatigue in the brittle metal around the weld, a problem I had anticipated when I first saw the design (you can see my much earlier comments in that linked thread). TIG welds or forming the tags from the flange section instead, ideally with a reinforcing fold, would probably prevent that happening.

The engine failure I mentioned was a separate case, a circuit racer friend of mine who had the rubber seal fall apart and pieces of it blocked the pick up, causing oil starvation, quickly resulting in rod failure (PEC rods) and virtual total engine destruction.

I prefer sealant to a gasket on the sump, it tends to last better if you use the right stuff and apply it judiciously. The Loctite formulation I use goes off pretty quick, only really enough time to bolt down the sump pan itself, if you had to apply it to two sides of the baffle, fit the oil pump and then fit the sump (without any oily finger touches!), you'd struggle.

I also don't like the welded sump method usually seen on Longman engines (and some other specialist engines I've had in), the blind section is near impossible to completely clean of old oil and debris during a rebuild, due to lack of access. There is another Peugeot Sport baffle kit I've seen on some of these engines, that has a sandwich plate, windage tray bolted to the mains and welded baffles in the pan, that's just about the worst of all the designs in one, but looks like it would run inverted!


All due respect sandy, but the customer was happy to run another of our baffles in his engine so can't be that awful can it? There is no proof that it was that, as his engine was heavily modified, but 1 out of over 100 a year over 5/6 years? Statistics say that it was a one off.

The rubber seal provided with the pug sport baffle, has been shown to deteriorate over time and it is often chosen to not fit it iirc. We no longer supply this seal. As said to you on your previous occasions to make snide comments about our quality, if you have a suggestion for improvements, please call us, rob would be happy to listen as he has respect for your work and skills.

The welds breaking on that baffle is the first we have heard when you posted those images. As said above, if we don't know there is a problem we can't fix it.

[AlexB]

Sorry Alex, but this is getting a bit confused! The engine I posted pics of, had not failed, but was certainly close to it. The weld breaks look to me like fatigue in the brittle metal around the weld, a problem I had anticipated when I first saw the design (you can see my much earlier comments in that linked thread).

When i hit the link on my phone i just get a single reply come up not a thread

Im just seeing the side i can of things having the info i have as an engineer and machinist i can understand quite well but im no engine guru or expert at all
Hell im worried im gunna fuck up sorting out end float on an engine lol

But i cant see any issues personally with the sheer numbers of the constella out there if any other sumps were produced in similar numbers failiures would happen its not a pleasany invironment (heat vibrations ect) so metal fatigue will happen in some cases with most designs

[Sandy309]

The statistics can be read however you want really, I only have first hand of two engines with the kit and not a good hit ratio! I seriously doubt there are more Constella kits than PS out there, the ratio in the competitions engines I've seen is heavily towards PS kits.

I can't say all I know or think here; it would just sound like I'm bitching and I think all the information needed is up for people to see and accept or reject as they see fit. I don't like making enemies and Steph if you'd taken my original (106RR), utterly practical comments as they were intended and not opened with a weak (let's face it, heavily loaded) joke about my workmanship; I might have been a bit more inclined towards diplomacy, when I found the problems.

[AlexB]

The ps kits are in lots of engines in racing
But race teams tend to not publish failiures as far as i know a lot try and hide them from what ive seen

I cant personally see any problem with the constella if its fitted how they say too as i say im not as experienced as you in this but i like to hope i understand enough to know
Ive removed a sump i have seen that looks genuinely ropey lol that was done many years ago though and no point slating companies as they cant front their side of thing

I am more concerend by the quality of the builder of my engines work than by the sump failing lol i allways had my doubts and tbh now its looking like a bottom end rebuilds needed after about 9k mileage....

I know your work is high quality but robs isnt shabby either lol

[qrty]

Hopefully someone can answer this, maybe Sandy?

Can the bottom end bolts that come with the Peugeot Sport kits be reused or are they stretch bolts?

I ask as I have a Peugeot Sport kit to fit but the bolts have previously been used and looking on Peugeot Sport it says these are no longer available. :n:

[Sandy309]

The TU main bolts aren't stretched at the correct torque, so as long as you don't overtighten them or have an engine failure that could overstress the bolts, they are fine to re-use.

I hear what you're saying Alex and as my last post alludes, issues and how they are dealt with are part technical and part personal. There are companies/suppliers that I prefer for technical reasons, some for personal and some I won't use where the opposite is true; I could really make some enemies here on that topic!
Now I will be totally frank in response to what you say about engine building/re-building, this is purely my view, fairly off topic and bear in mind I have no available engine building slots, so I can't take on any builds, the ones I have on will easily take me into the next rebuild cycle etc, not a sales pitch of any kind, purely a personal view:
I work in a small group of engine builders/engineers that share alot of information and skills, the standard on the whole is high, but what is clear is that there are two approaches to the work, passion and profit. The hardcore of engine builders can be broken into those two motivations, I would describe myself and John Read (JRE) as passion motivated, the others, more profit motivated. Being motivated by the passion for engines, pushes you to use the best components and the highest levels of precision you can achieve within your resources and budget. Being motivated more by profit, means cheaper components with better margins (tell the customer they're great if need be) and a more lax approach to the finer details of the build. It's a sweeping generalisation perhaps, but knowing what we know about the overall quality effects of cheap major components in an engine, we find it very hard to take seriously builders that don't take their component quality seriously. Unfortunately, most customers simply don't know or understand the issues, or expect a certain amount of crap with a tuned engine. The truth is highly strung engines will need frequent checks, but if kept in check, they should provide great performance, good driveability and even economy, over their life. Most of this industry is made up of small outfits that might have a specialist area, but it's rare that they perform or oversee every stage of the build from boring the block to final in car mapping/testing with great attention to detail; it's really super rare that I see that.
Customers mostly don't know or understand much about the details or how to dovetail it all together; that naivety and cognitive dissonance means that alot of work goes un-scrutinised and problems get swept away without really being attended to. John and I aren't happy with what we do, unless we know it's of a suitable standard, that's the passion and it hurts profit, it makes doing this for a living very hard. It also means when I do flag up things I'm not happy about, I'm likely to take a pasting off people that don't think I'm being fair or have an axe to grind etc; but it's difficult not to when it matters so much.
Truly good, trustworthy and reliable engine builders/developers are hard to isolate and usually very busy and/or expensive. But they enjoy loyalty.

[AlexB]

I know what your saying sandy
My engine has been looked at several times its only recently ive noticed my issue with end float but bottom ends should last longer than that i would hope as over a millimeter of end float seems excessive

As you say sometimes personal feelings outweigh technical data which is why personally i wont ever use gmc for anything as i found john extremely blunt and rude towards me when i asked 3 questions many years ago

[qrty]

Thank you Sandy, as always it's nice to see someone with your knowledge helping us simple folk! :y:

[Sandy309]

Thanks :)

Alex, 1mm is very excessive, I really would drop the sump and take a look at the thrusts to find out what's on; one of them might be about to turn and that could be terminal.

[e8_pqck]

I work in manufacturing and if there was one area that gets a serious amount of attention it's welding. Engineers spend hours testing/qualifying and proceduralising welding, from heat input, filler, weld design, heat zones, ferrite testing, DPI, radiography and many other controls and parameters. For someone to knock up a bit of sheetmetal and use the wrong type of weld application, then think it's going to be ok, is really asking for trouble.

[AlexB]

Thanks :)

Alex, 1mm is very excessive, I really would drop the sump and take a look at the thrusts to find out what's on; one of them might be about to turn and that could be terminal.

Yea i know ita huge which is why the cars sat and not going anywere atm sandy

[Steph_at_constella]

The statistics can be read however you want really, I only have first hand of two engines with the kit and not a good hit ratio! I seriously doubt there are more Constella kits than PS out there, the ratio in the competitions engines I've seen is heavily towards PS kits.

I can't say all I know or think here; it would just sound like I'm bitching and I think all the information needed is up for people to see and accept or reject as they see fit. I don't like making enemies and Steph if you'd taken my original (106RR), utterly practical comments as they were intended and not opened with a weak (let's face it, heavily loaded) joke about my workmanship; I might have been a bit more inclined towards diplomacy, when I found the problems.



Sandy, As I recall you posted first with no diplomacy about what you thought of our product. The better thing would have been to call us, or if you don't like phones, to email us. We don't bite and i'm actually not as much of a bitch as I come across. The joke was to lighten the mood and maybe create banter, as I said then. I apologise if it offended you but you could take the higher ground, rather than make snipey comments and posts on forums.

You said yourself you have only experience with two engines fitted with the kit, of which one was happy to use another Constella baffle. People can make their own minds up on what they use, i'm not going to go around and say we are better and the only option you should use, because we are an option. Like the Longmans option, PS option etc etc.

Now can we return to a professional and less bitchy form of discussion?? If you have more to say, please contact me directly.

[106maxi]

Now can we return to a professional and less bitchy form of discussion??
Is there any specific difference in the way the two work? Or is it all in the fitment?

[AlexB]

Basically fitment differences

[106maxi]

Basically fitment differences

specific difference

I know they are basically the same, hence why I was asking about specifics.

[Sandy309]

Sandy, As I recall you posted first with no diplomacy about what you thought of our product. The better thing would have been to call us, or if you don't like phones, to email us. We don't bite and i'm actually not as much of a bitch as I come across. The joke was to lighten the mood and maybe create banter, as I said then. I apologise if it offended you but you could take the higher ground, rather than make snipey comments and posts on forums.

You said yourself you have only experience with two engines fitted with the kit, of which one was happy to use another Constella baffle. People can make their own minds up on what they use, i'm not going to go around and say we are better and the only option you should use, because we are an option. Like the Longmans option, PS option etc etc.

Now can we return to a professional and less bitchy form of discussion?? If you have more to say, please contact me directly.

Not every product is perfect and my original post on 106RR was "The pugsport bolts to replacement main bearing bolts. This one uses a duplicate sandwiched sump flange, which gives you doubled gasket faces and makes it twice as hard to get a good seal and latterly re-seal... hence I'm not a fan I'm afraid. " A fraction of what I really thought and an appropriate reply to the original question. Is that not diplomacy? Your reply certainly wasn't and banter isn't what I'd call it or what's happened since.

Likely we'll be saying goodbye to this thread and you're free to carry on unchallenged because I'm saying goodbye to this forum.

[blackie_2k5]

Without trying sides here as I really have no side to take,

I think it's a real shame that ppl jump allover true opinions on a forum, i can appreciate that whoevers product is being questioned should want to back up or question any claims made

But end of the day it shouldn't be about how pally a group of ppl are on a forum with a certain trader/traders

I like to read up about this sort of thing, it helps make informed decisions on products, that's what forums are all about,

Makes you wonder what the point of being on a forum is all about when really you're being coaxed into following suit with whatever a certain group of ppl seem to want, or perhaps want you to buy

Don't take it too literally on this exact situation, but this seems to happen a lot on here around different groups of ppl and forum affiliates

Massive shame

[AlexB]

Likely we'll be saying goodbye to this thread and you're free to carry on unchallenged because I'm saying goodbye to this forum.

If this is anything to do with my input here i apologise i was just going with what ive seen/experienced
Loosing a technical minded person is allways a big shame in a community like this

[Steph_at_constella]

Not every product is perfect and my original post on 106RR was "The pugsport bolts to replacement main bearing bolts. This one uses a duplicate sandwiched sump flange, which gives you doubled gasket faces and makes it twice as hard to get a good seal and latterly re-seal... hence I'm not a fan I'm afraid. " A fraction of what I really thought and an appropriate reply to the original question. Is that not diplomacy? Your reply certainly wasn't and banter isn't what I'd call it or what's happened since.

Likely we'll be saying goodbye to this thread and you're free to carry on unchallenged because I'm saying goodbye to this forum.

1) diplomatic would have been a phone call. We've phoned companies before we have mentioned anything and said look, you have this issue, it needs addressing. That's diplomatic and professional.

2) I don't wish to remain unchallenged as you put it. It's a discussion in which both sides are valid. You have said this above. I'm staying mine as much as you are yours.

3) I am sorry I offend you with how I post/speak etc I apologise for any inappropriate jibes, jokes, attempted banter or whatever you want to call it.

I have no further comments but feel free to pm me and we can chat sandy

[Ross]

I don't think "the forum" is siding with anyone andy - and lets not forget neither sandy nor Constella are affiliates.

I don't have any plans to remove this thread and although I've not confirmed with my esteemed mod colleagues, I doubt they will either. Open debate is good for everyone. No one is shepherded into a product or trader (unlike some other forums we could both mention).

I can't talk more this evening due to personal reasons, but I have spoken to both steph and sandy via pm to share my personal opinion. I'll try to reply here tomorrow.

[jpsaxo]

If this is anything to do with my input here i apologise i was just going with what ive seen/experienced
Loosing a technical minded person is allways a big shame in a community like this

It's definitely a massive shame and a big loss to the forum Alex

[wadoryu]

If this wasn't the track section I'd have posted a "well that escalated quickly meme" but to keep it on topic I feel non-inclined to do so. I think wires have been crossed somewhere and a few members need to re-read what has been said. Kiss and make up guys (and lady)

[axsaxoman]

I have watched this thread without sticking my bit in --
my view on it is simple --the price differnce is quite alot and MOST of the members of the forum have limted budgets ,and while i agree totally with sandy,s long post ,the reality is that cannot afford or want to pay for the absolute best possible ,but something that will do the job .
I have never yet had a customer who has said I want the ultimate and price is no object ,just give me the best possible
saxo owners don,t have that type of money in the main ,if they did they would not be running a saxo and every penny is a prisoner
,as for making big profits --that ,ll be the day

[axsaxoman]

an update
I got the last pug psort sump baffle kit this week
tired to get another and have been told that pugpsort france have now stopped making them --so looks like this argument is over ,as the constella is the only one out there

[106maxi]

I know where there are 3 more PugSport kits so stock hasn't completely dried up.