9/11..falling people...

[VillicusVTR]

What do you feel when you see these pics?

Personally they amaze me, not in a morbid or freaky way, but the thought that these people had 2 choices that both ended in death, be burnt alive or jump, really interests me. Would you of chose to jump?

http://i842.photobucket.com/albums/zz346/bonnessbenjamin/jumper10.jpg

http://i842.photobucket.com/albums/zz346/bonnessbenjamin/jumper8.jpg

http://i842.photobucket.com/albums/zz346/bonnessbenjamin/falling-man_085221.jpg

http://i842.photobucket.com/albums/zz346/bonnessbenjamin/fallingman.jpg

http://i842.photobucket.com/albums/zz346/bonnessbenjamin/jumper11.jpg

http://i842.photobucket.com/albums/zz346/bonnessbenjamin/9_11_jumpers.jpg

[MiniGibbo]

Its sickening tbh..

Its that video theyve got of the fireman iirc being interveiwed inside the entrace to one of the towers and you can hear people "pinging" off the cladded roof :S

[VillicusVTR]

yea thats just harsh, maybe its just me but when I look at them pics it amazes me how there life was finished, but they still had an option how to finish it

[Prickle]

Its shocking imo. Apparantly it was 200+ people that jumped off?

Id jump off too as you'd die halfway down to due the shock etc of it.

rip.

[VillicusVTR]

yea john jus been searching it and they reckon it was non stop raining people for an hour and a half, can only imagine how the looked once they'd hit the floor man :(

[MiniGibbo]

I was talking about this the other week on site with some of the lads, one passed comment on surely youd try to climb up or down to get away from the fire..

But then as i said at the time surely the heat of a plane fire with the fuel and stuff must of been so imence youd jump without a second thaught :n:

To be honest its situation i wouldnt even want to imagine my self in...

[VillicusVTR]

nor me man, they say it would of been that hot in some places it would just melt a human :(

[Prickle]

yea john jus been searching it and they reckon it was non stop raining people for an hour and a half, can only imagine how the looked once they'd hit the floor man :(

Yeah pretty much flat.

[D--R--E--W]

been watching alot of stuff about 9/11 on nat geo channel and its sickening to see. Feel so sorry for the families.

Think I would take the option to jump and pray that just as I was about to hit the ground.. I would wake up!!

[MiniGibbo]

Apparently its only a rumour as noone knows the actual answer but they reacon a good percentage of people who fall from hieghts like that before they even hit the ground, shock and stuff..

[dannygti]

Aircraft fuel burns at about 1500deg to give you an idea of what it could have been like, it was also a confined space so it's worse..
Choice is, jump or be incinerated :( some of those images are unforgettable :(

[W103_A5H]

Got to feel for the families of these people, aswell as all others lost as they had no chance to run from such a horrible thing.

I'd hate to be stuck in a situation where it was a case of burn or jump, yeh its easy to say why not climb down but if there lungs are filled with smoke and they are breathless i doubt you would be able to climb down one floor let alone 60+ stories. depending on how far up you are.

I watched the JK show yesterday and it had victims/families of those involved and i dont think people understand how much it has affected people even though they have survived.

[VillicusVTR]

10 years later and it still shocks me, dont think we'll ever get used to it. On these pics the people have taken their fate and put it in their own hands, they chose how to go, but the others just didnt have a choice, i'd hate to of been killed like that because of an extremist belief

[ClaireHall]

This is the worst thing I have ever seen, rip to all those innocent people :( and those brave firemen.
This is a hard time of year for America :(
Everytime theres programs on about 9/11 I'm always glued to it, with the same sick feeling I had ten years ago

[Boothy_UK]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8XRMrMdn0NQ

[Dom]

My uncle was out there, and still lives out there now, he watched this unfold (working at the Sullivan & Cromwell building 2 blocks away from the towers), he near on finds it impossible to get the words together to talk about it.

I still remember getting home from school, watching it on TV, waiting for the phone to ring from the family we had out there, those hours, ones I wouldn't want to live again. Its a sad moment in history, conspiracy or not, people died, and in tragic circumstances.

To the main question, be burnt or jump, me and a friend had this convosation the other night, I said I would rather jump, either way, it would be a painful death, but it would be quicker and in my control.

[Mieran]

I thought smoke would kill you before the fire reaches?

I would have jumped too tbh, fuck getting burned alive.

[Robin91]

That's such a weird thought, can't imagine what it'd feel like to be in that position. Obviously we all know death is certain and inevitable, but knowing that you were going to die in the next 5 minutes, and there was literally nothing you could do to save your life, and having to actually make that choice... f*ck.

I think I'd jump, if nothing more than for the adrealine, I guess it's a more "pleasant" way to die for lack of a better word. Scary thought though..

[K17NEY]

I'd be out off the window without a thought, Tarraa!

[D--R--E--W]

I'd be out off the window without a thought, Tarraa!

I'd throw you out the window without a thought, Tarraa!!! ;)

[K17NEY]

I'd throw you out the window without a thought, Tarraa!!! ;)

I'd grab hold of your kilt and drag you out with me....

[Saxologist]

I'd rather just get burnt tbh.

Anything falling from a height has a terminal velocity (The maximum velocity of an object without any other force except from weight and gravity present)

(So in essence a heavy person will fall faster then a light person *Once termal velocity is achieved

Watching a skydiving program, you can reach 120mph. Hitting the ground with that speed would break you. It'd take you 20+ seconds to hit the ground.

If people say im mad for jumping into the fire, you'd die instantly. Not think about things for 20 seconds.


R.I.P To everyone who lost there lives

[Robin91]

I'd rather just get burnt tbh.

Anything falling from a height has a terminal velocity (The maximum velocity of an object without any other force except from weight and gravity present)

(So in essence a heavy person will fall faster then a light person *Once termal velocity is achieved

Watching a skydiving program, you can reach 120mph. Hitting the ground with that speed would break you. It'd take you 20+ seconds to hit the ground.

If people say im mad for jumping into the fire, you'd die instantly. Not think about things for 20 seconds.


R.I.P To everyone who lost there lives

You'd often die of shock long before you hit the floor, and once you hit the floor you'd die instantly.. It'd be a quicker death than the fire, fire wouldn't be instant as such, would be more drawn out for sure! + Imagine the adrealine/feeling of flying through the air like that, would be an incredible feeling in a strange kind of way, would much prefer that prior to ending my life than feeling the excruciating pain of my flesh burning..

[VillicusVTR]

im with you on that robin, if it was me, and i had 2 choices, id go for the brief feeling of flying (instead of plummeting to certain death lol)...in one picture, the 3rd one down theres an amazing piece on the net about that pic because they say he is falling in a position only he can hold, ie gravity etc plays no part, so in a weird way maybe that bloke is choosing to fly instead of hurl to the ground in a crazy uncontrolled manner ....id rather fly to my death than plummet :)

[mlawlan69]

in many cases it wasnt just "fuck it im going to jump" no rational human being would think like that, and after all we have to assume they went to work that day "rational"

it was a case of the heat and smoke driving them out, somewhere they could breath fresh air, look closely at the videos, people are clambering on people for air, all those storeys up 120 iirc.

i do not doubt some chose to jump, but many/more will have fallen.

they also say that before you hit the ground you would have a heart attack and die from shock, but there is nothing to prove this true :$

a very noble way to die

[VillicusVTR]

can you imagine accidentally falling or being pushed off, meaning someone else has determined your fate :(

[Robin91]

I'd jump like the guy on assassins creed srs. Hope there was a haybail at that bottom.

[VillicusVTR]

haha i wonder if some people actually thought it through, like...."well iv got two choices, and both end in death, maybe ill get lucky and land on something amazingly soft" , just to hide the thought that they were fucked, id probably try and kid myself with some crazy inconceivable thought like "well maybe ill grow instant wings or maybe the dog from never ending story will grab me"

[Robin91]

I think i'd get naked just to feel the breeze.

[VillicusVTR]

HAHA would a mankini be involved?

[Robin91]

HAHA would a mankini be involved?

Hell no, that'd detract from the flow of air!

[NickJ]

I think I read somewhere that the first fireman who died was crushed by someone who had jumped / fallen

It's hard to comprehend the whole 9/11 situation, must be so difficult for people who lost friends / family / colleagues

It worries me that we are still going to see similar, if not worse, terrorist attacks for years to come

[RustySkull]

Fear does strange things to people...

[Rogue_Shadow]

Alot of floors were sealed shut by the plane crash or fire. So for a majority of the jumpers it was a choice of wait for Rescue or Jump and gave some choice over your death.
But all the other posts are right the heat would of been imense! The percentage of flammable materials to fuel the fire would easily be over 90% even more jet fuel covering each level

[MiniGibbo]

I was wondering about the guys in the floors above but as we all know heat rises and between melting shoes and creaking steals it's a hard choice..

[Prickle]

I imagine it would be a experience jumping of knowing theres no parachute to save you.

Im wondering why though? why did the plane crash into it and why did it fall perfect? it could of fallen in any direction but no it fell like a normal demolition. Controlled tbh.

[Robin91]

I imagine it would be a experience jumping of knowing theres no parachute to save you.

Im wondering why though? why did the plane crash into it and why did it fall perfect? it could of fallen in any direction but no it fell like a normal demolition. Controlled tbh.

Oh lawd, don't start this..

[NickJ]

I imagine it would be a experience jumping of knowing theres no parachute to save you.

Im wondering why though? why did the plane crash into it and why did it fall perfect? it could of fallen in any direction but no it fell like a normal demolition. Controlled tbh.

Massive can of worms opened right there!

Planes crashed into the towers because of suicide terrorists, organised by Al Qaeda

Towers fell because the steel columns couldn't handle the immense heat, structural failure

All IMO of course

[Prickle]

Oh lawd, don't start this..

J u s t d i d b r 0

Massive can of worms opened right there!

Planes crashed into the towers because of suicide terrorists, organised by Al Qaeda

Towers fell because the steel columns couldn't handle the immense heat, structural failure

All IMO of course

Read about that. Hmmm

[kmak577]

Ditto on being glued to the programs. You'd imagine the more you watch these things the more you could get your head around it, for me it makes it way harder to contemplate it.

I wonder how many chose to jump and how many fell..... Broken windows and smoke filled rooms.... Poor sods!

[ClaireHall]

Im the same i cant get my head round it, but cant stop myself from watching the programs on the tv :O

Very interesting and horrifying at the same time

[cyne]

Ditto on being glued to the programs. You'd imagine the more you watch these things the more you could get your head around it, for me it makes it way harder to contemplate it.

I wonder how many chose to jump and how many fell..... Broken windows and smoke filled rooms.... Poor sods!

Eh? Makes what harder to contemplate?

Surely it's not that hard to understand that people jumped of a building and died?

[Raz]

Massive can of worms opened right there!

Planes crashed into the towers because of suicide terrorists, organised by Al Qaeda

Towers fell because the steel columns couldn't handle the immense heat, structural failure

All IMO of course

The buildings were made to withstand "multiple" plane attacks. And the "immense" heat you are talking about wouldn't be enough to melt the structure (can't think of the name of the metal structure). So why can't scientists prove why the structures collapsed 'perfectly' other than an organised demolition?

Did Al Qaeda threaten the pilot to fly into the buildings or did they take over and do it themselves? There is suspicions on everything about this...and all can't be thinking one dimensional about it.

P.S - I'm glad that Bin Laden is dead but there are so many ways this can be put together.

I feel deeply sorry for the families that lost their loved ones, for the firefighters who lost their lives trying to save others.

[rey]

I imagine it would be a experience jumping of knowing theres no parachute to save you.

Im wondering why though? why did the plane crash into it and why did it fall perfect? it could of fallen in any direction but no it fell like a normal demolition. Controlled tbh.

It didn't fall perfectly at all. Both towers fell well outside of their footprint.
Also, look at the work that has to go into prepping a building for a controlled demolition, they have to be stripped right back to pretty much a bare shell to be able to get access to the correct points to guarantee failure. And on buildings the size of the twin towers that would take months, with hundreds of people carrying out the work.

Someone would have noticed.

The buildings were made to withstand "multiple" plane attacks. And the "immense" heat you are talking about wouldn't be enough to melt the structure (can't think of the name of the metal structure). So why can't scientists prove why the structures collapsed 'perfectly' other than an organised demolition?

They were designed to withstand light aircraft travelling at less than 150mph, not a 757 travelling at ~450mph.

The immense heat would be enough, learn something about the properties of steel, you'll find out that you don't need steel to be at it's melting point temperature to fail. Prolonged exposure to the high temperature causes the steel to "grow" and deform, which stresses the joints with over beams, which in turn causes those to fail.

It really is that simple. Steel expands and deforms with heat. This is what caused the failure, the beams never "melted". They expanded beyond their design capabilities which caused them to fail.

[m11ler]

The beams were melted though :detective:

[rey]

They weren't, they were deformed from failure.

[m11ler]

And all hot and gloopy and molten

[rey]

Show me where there's molten steel

[m11ler]

http://9eleven.info/MetalGlow.jpg
http://www.debunking911.com/Molten.jpg
http://truthandshadows.files.wordpress.com/2010/10/molten-metal-pouring.jpg

[rey]

Read this: Link (http://www.debunking911.com/moltensteel.htm)

It was said at the time, that the source would most likely be aluminium, which comes from the skin of the plane and most of the components.

"NIST concluded that the source of the molten material was aluminum alloys from the aircraft, since these are known to melt between 475 degrees Celsius and 640 degrees Celsius (depending on the particular alloy), well below the expected temperatures (about 1,000 degrees Celsius) in the vicinity of the fires. Aluminum is not expected to ignite at normal fire temperatures and there is no visual indication that the material flowing from the tower was burning.

Pure liquid aluminum would be expected to appear silvery. However, the molten metal was very likely mixed with large amounts of hot, partially burned, solid organic materials (e.g., furniture, carpets, partitions and computers) which can display an orange glow, much like logs burning in a fireplace. The apparent color also would have been affected by slag formation on the surface.

One of the glaringly OBVIOUS pieces of evidence is the place the flow is coming from. It just happens to be where the airliner crashed to a halt. You can tell by the way the perimeter columns look. They're bowed out like a catcher's mitt.http://www.debunking911.com/debris.jpg

The questions usually want me to address "Is this photo a fake?" and "Is the flow steel or aluminum?" "Is this situation possible?"

First, I will address the temperature range, then the color of the flow.

I am working in imperial units and temperature in degrees F [To convert to C use this link]

Metals lose about 50% of their strength at 60% of their melting temperature. This is common knowledge and may be found in any undergraduate text regarding "Fracture and Deformation of Materials."

If the approximate melting temperature of steel is 2750 F the the material would be plastic at 1650 F. Even assuming a safety factor of 3, you would expect the bolts or other structural members to deform and fail near this temperature, especially with the additional weight if a jet air liner. I would assume that the live load calculations did not include the typical office equipment and an airliner plus a factor of 3. THEREFORE I assume that the flow is not steel and that the temperature of the steel members at the time of the photo is less than 1650 F.

Assuming that the flow would be molten aluminum from the airliner and the color of molten aluminum is silver then why is the flow orange?

The color of pure molten aluminum is silver, It has an emissivity of .12. Steel has an emissivity of .4 and appears orange in the temperature range of molten aluminum.

The emissivity of aluminum oxide is .44 and also appears orange in the melting temperature range of molten aluminum.

The emissivity of plate glass is .937 It begins to soften at 1000 F and flows around 1350 F. Silica has an emissivity of .8

Copper oxide also has an emissivity of .8. however I will assume that their effect is negligible.

Aluminum oxidizes readily in the foundry under ideal melting conditions. Large surface area relative to thickness, turbulence, the presence of water or oil greatly increases the oxidation of aluminum. A jet airliner is made of thin aluminum sheet and most probably suffered considerable oxidation especially in contact with an open flame and being in contact with jet fuel. If you don't believe this, try melting a few soda cans over coals or open flame. If you are lucky you will end up with only 50% aluminum oxide. However, the cans may completely burn up.

The specific gravity of aluminum is 2.7. The specific gravity of aluminum oxide (Al2O3-3H2O) is 2.42 the specific gravity of Si = 2.40 and Glass is 2.65 these are all very similar and likely to be entrained in a molten aluminum flow. Don't believe it? lightly stir the dross into molten aluminum. The surface tension is so high is is almost impossible to separate them.

THEREFORE assuming that the flow consist of molten aluminum and considerable oxides, and assuming that the windows in the trade center were plate glass and also in a plastic state and that they were also likely entrained in the molten aluminum. I would expect the flow to appear to be orange in color. Especially since both the entrained materials have emissivities equal to or more than twice that of iron.

Also since dross cools to a gray color and glass with impurities also turns dark. I would expect that the flow would darken upon cooling.

I would also suggest that not only is the photo possible, but entirely likely.

Summary: The flow is not steel because the structural steel would fail well below the melting temperature. The flow is likely to be a mixture of aluminum, aluminum oxides, molten glass and coals of whatever trash the aluminum flowed over as it reached the open window. Such a flow would appear orange and cool to a dark color.

[m11ler]

Glad you edited that post lol, like fuck was i reading pages and pages of that link.
Very interesting read though, shows there seems to be evidence for whatever people want there to be evidence for.

[rey]

Haha, I was slowly adding stuff to it!

So how do you think the steel, if it was indeed steel became molten?

[Prickle]

Interesting read.

[saxoclarke]

Its shocking imo. Apparantly it was 200+ people that jumped off?

Id jump off too as you'd die halfway down to due the shock etc of it.

rip. this is actually untrue videos of people jumping slowed down show people moving and also putting the arms out ( instinct) meters before the floor.

[Jay_]

this is actually untrue videos of people jumping slowed down show people moving and also putting the arms out ( instinct) meters before the floor.

bet those last 10 meters were fucking terrifying :n:

[Prickle]

this is actually untrue videos of people jumping slowed down show people moving and also putting the arms out ( instinct) meters before the floor.

not seen any of them..

[Bound]

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=9072062020229593250#

It's funny cause the guy who's not a idiot (conspiracy theorist) actually has facts, demonstrations, experiments, science etc etc as evidence... The evidence against isn't so forthcoming.. I'd go as far as to say there is none.

[sarajayne22]

I'd jump, much quicker way of going than burning/suffocating.