16v weird problem.. FOUND it's the injectors but...

[saxova]

Okay, so this is my 4th or 5th thread since fitting a 16v to my car :detective:

Took car out on weekend, whilst driving my dash completely lost power, like I had disconnected the battery.. Then came on again, so took it home..

It continued to randomly go off/on the way home.

Once home, I checked all earths/starter motor.. was 1 a little loose, but not alot.. so sanded them all down (again, again) and tightened.

Then I had all power to dash etc..

So tried to start the car.. Would turn over, fire then die (any amount of throttle didn't make a difference, would not run.)

So checked spark - yeah have spark.
Checked fuel to rail - yeah not blocked.
Changed crank shaft sensor (3 different ones) - made no difference.
Cleaned ICV / unplugged temp sensor - Not that.
Took induction off, poured fuel down the pipe, cranked on full throttle - boom worked.
Bypassed the fuel cut off incase that was causing it not to spray fuel - Still wouldn't run.

So I guessed when it was losing power to dash, it must of surged and damaged/blew the injector relay. So changed that to one off my 8v engine, and it runs for a few second's then cut's out.
(no amount of throttle makes a difference, although if I hold abit of throttle on, it will fire and rev to the amount of throttle I have on then cut out.)

And that's where i'm at.. All I can think of now is blocked injectors? However it's ran fine for months? Only won't start since the power on/off on the weekend.

Is there anything else fuse/relay related to the fuelling system? - as when it surged, it must of damaged something?

Help/idea's pweeeeeze saxp gurus?

:hug:

[stevo67]

At a guess try another fuel pump/or a new fuel filter mate.

[saxova]

Hmm, The fuel's definitely priming and it fly's out of the fuel pipe :S

So plenty fuel's getting to the rail

Just that I don't have a spare pump to try, and the nearest motor shop is a 4 mile walk >.<

Guess it's my only option, just that i've spent a small fortune on coilpack/lambda's/sensors..

Also It's weird how it ran and got me home, but when switched off.. wouldn't start again :S

[stevo67]

Your cheapest option to try 1st would be fuel filter mate,weird problem hope you get it sorted.

[saxova]

I'll try it, But I would of thought if the fuel filter was blocked, then the fuel wouldn't spray out of the fuel pipe as fast as it does?

The rail's getting fuel, it's as if the injector's aren't spraying it through :S

So guessing there's only the fuel relay involved in the fuel system?

What a lovely day to go driving.. o wait wut? :P

[stevo67]

I had a blocked fuel filter & the fuel was getting through intermittently,another suggestion try some fuel cleaner in your petrol tank.It maybe a blocked injector.

[saxova]

Cheers mate, i'll order one now!

GOD DAMN YOU MR 16V!!!!

[saxova]

Changed fuel filter - petrol supposed to be black? :detective: L0L.

Also put some injector cleaner in, it's the same! Still won't run! Has to be the injector's not firing..

Thinking of trying a different injector loom? No fuse's or out are blown.

The injector relay I put on off my 8V engine has the same model number as the one on my 16v.. so they must be interchangeable?

Headfuck.com :)

[Piggie]

Okay, so this is my 4th or 5th thread since fitting a 16v to my car :detective:

Took car out on weekend, whilst driving my dash completely lost power, like I had disconnected the battery.. Then came on again, so took it home..

It continued to randomly go off/on the way home.

Once home, I checked all earths/starter motor.. was 1 a little loose, but not alot.. so sanded them all down (again, again) and tightened.

Then I had all power to dash etc..

So tried to start the car.. Would turn over, fire then die (any amount of throttle didn't make a difference, would not run.)

So checked spark - yeah have spark.
Checked fuel to rail - yeah not blocked.
Changed crank shaft sensor (3 different ones) - made no difference.Cleaned ICV / unplugged temp sensor - Not that.
Took induction off, poured fuel down the pipe, cranked on full throttle - boom worked.
Bypassed the fuel cut off incase that was causing it not to spray fuel - Still wouldn't run.

So I guessed when it was losing power to dash, it must of surged and damaged/blew the injector relay. So changed that to one off my 8v engine, and it runs for a few second's then cut's out.
(no amount of throttle makes a difference, although if I hold abit of throttle on, it will fire and rev to the amount of throttle I have on then cut out.)

And that's where i'm at.. All I can think of now is blocked injectors? However it's ran fine for months? Only won't start since the power on/off on the weekend.

Is there anything else fuse/relay related to the fuelling system? - as when it surged, it must of damaged something?

Help/idea's pweeeeeze saxp gurus?

:hug:

Is this different from a Crank Position Sensor?

I had a VERY similar problem. Randomly loosing ALL power then starting again. And this was what caused it.

As you can guess im not a mechanic. Just odd how similar his is to what happened to mine. (I have 16v conversion btw)

[saxova]

Is this different from a Crank Position Sensor?

I had a VERY similar problem. Randomly loosing ALL power then starting again. And this was what caused it.

As you can guess im not a mechanic. Just odd how similar his is to what happened to mine. (I have 16v conversion btw)

Yeah it's a crankshaft position sensor, I just worded it abit differently :)

Going to try another injector loom + injector relay - If that doesn't solve it - Ill try another ECU.

however can't see how this could be damaged as it drove home fine, just turned it off.. and it wouldn't restart.

If the injector loom + relay + ecu doesn't solve it, I'm out of idea's lol.

oooo brainwave, would a faulty TPS (throttle position sensor) cause the car not to run??

EDIT: saying that - it does run - with fuel down the intake. So 100% something with injectors.
:panic:

[Simon0014]

Get your injectors ultrasonically cleaned may help things. I've never heard of this problem before though so can't offer any other advice

[Beaniemoo]

Sound like you might have a fuel pressure regulator problem!
Are you running both fuel pipes to the rail?
If so block off the return and try it then!
Unfortunately if you're running a vtr fuel pump the regulator is in the tank!
If the regulator is faulty you'll have a good fuel supply but won't hold any pressure in the rail as its all being returned

[stevo67]

Mk1 saxo`s have the fpr on the line going to the fuel rail,mk2`s have the fpr on the fuel pump.

[Beaniemoo]

All vts's have a regulator on the rail and a return line where as vtr's have the return in the fuel pump in the tank!
Anyway I think that's where your problem is located if you have a good fuel supply, spark, and timing is ok.

[saxova]

Since the conversion, i've had the fuel return blocked off.

Still running the VTR fuel pump / FPR in tank, then obviously the 16v's have a FPR on the rail too.

But this hasn't caused a problem since i put the engine in 3 months ago.

So doe's that rule the fuel pressure out?

Ta for ideas tho :)

[Beaniemoo]

No it doesn't rule it out.
If the regulator in the original fuel pump in the tank has become weak (just a failure, nothing to do with the conversion) it will supply fuel but not hold pressure.
Might be worth trying to prime the fuel pump with your thumb over the end of the fuel feed pipe to see what pressure it has behind it!
From what you've said I really suspect this is the problem!

[saxova]

Ahh okay, just that you said block the return off so I thought with it being already blocked..

I'll see how much pressure there is tomorrow, great suggestion.. thanks!

[Gandi699]

Have you tried removing the injectors and rail out of the ports and having it squirt onto some card/into a container just to see if fuel is getting through when you crank?

[saxova]

Nah mate, but it's clearly not getting fuel through them :)

Fuel's at rail, and the car run's when poured down intake so spark etc is working.

So something's not telling the injector's to open, new injector relay 2morrow with a new set of injector loom.. and check the fuel pressure

If that doesn't solve it, I need to borrow a ECU =/

Wish I had abit of cash.. I'd just throw some throttle-body's on, that'd fix it ^_^

[Beaniemoo]

Ahh okay, just that you said block the return off so I thought with it being already blocked..

I'll see how much pressure there is tomorrow, great suggestion.. thanks!

Yeah when I was saying about blocking the fuel return that was if you were running a Vts fuel pump with the return line from the rail back to the tank all plumbed in and the regulator on the end of the rail regulating the pressure, as I wasn't sure how your car was converted.
I'd be very surprised if it was the injector relay as that also switches the feed to the coil pack and the fuel pump which are working, but if you've got one it's worth a go I guess.
Pressure wise, with your thumb over the end of the fuel pipe it should be about 3.5 bar (50psi) so when it's priming, with your thumb over the end of the pipe it should be pretty unstoppable spraying out around your thumb, so have someone ready to switch the ignition back off quick sharp in case you do have pressure (not that I think you will have)

[stevo67]

All vts's have a regulator on the rail and a return line where as vtr's have the return in the fuel pump in the tank!
Anyway I think that's where your problem is located if you have a good fuel supply, spark, and timing is ok.

Maybe so on a vts,but up until a certain date on a vtr the fpr is on the fuel line in the engine bay,as per haynes manual.

[saxova]

Just put my little finger in the fuel feed - and there's definitely pressure in the line!

Took my finger off and boooosh - fuel all over lol.

[Beaniemoo]

Bugger!
Right next, pull the fuel rail off but leave it plugged in and plumbed in, turn it over and see if it's injecting?
Or check the feed to the injectors using a multimeter.
Pin test the wiring from ecu to injector?

[saxova]

Ill have a look at the rail.. see if i can get it off..

Wouldn't know where to start with a multi meter mate :(.

[saxova]

Got the rail off after merging myself into the engine.. god damn those 2 allen keys at the back of the inlet are a bitch.

And yup injector's are not firing..

So if the relay controls the coilpack too.. it's 100% not that at fault, as all 4 sparkplugs are firing.

Fucked ECU? there's nothing else is there? =/

[enthrone]

The ecu actually unlocked?

[stevo67]

The ecu actually unlocked?

It must be unlocked mate,because he drove it home(with running probs)if the ecu wasn`t unlocked he wouldn`t have been able to get it started.:y:

[enthrone]

It must be unlocked mate,because he drove it home(with running probs)if the ecu wasn`t unlocked he wouldn`t have been able to get it started.:y:

fairs, only skimmed through.. :panic:

[saxova]

Yeah it's unlocked, The car has been running perfectly for 3 months (idle was dodgy at first but needed ICV)

Took car out - lost all power like i'd disconnected battery
Drove home with it on and off
Came to start it 2 hours later (after sanding down earths)
Wouldn't start

Injector's are not spraying.. So must be electrical, so changed fuses / injection relay

Need to try another injector loom, incase one of the wires broke when it was going on / off.

Really random and really weird lol.

[saxova]

What Makes the injector's spray fuel?

[saxo-parts]

What Makes the injector's spray fuel?

fuel under pressure passing through a nozzle,over a needle

[coleman258]

Ive had exactly the same problem here, am i right in saying your 3 plug?

When i took the rail out and turned the car over the injectors would do a burst (hence the running for a few seconds and dying) and that was it.

Have you still got your old vtr ecu? If so plug this in and weirdly enough it should still run. I've tried so many things and cant fix it. I've tried other VTS ecu's and still no joy but will run of a vtr ecu.

[saxova]

fuel under pressure passing through a nozzle,over a needle

Yeah but what tell's the injector's to spray? As I have good pressure in the lines :)

Relay/ecu?

My injector's don't spray at all.. Also my VTR ecu is locked i think. Might be worth a try though :S

[saxo-parts]

ECU tells the injectors when to inject

[saxova]

Okay, just tried the VTR ecu.. and yeah that's locked.

So put the other on, and tried it to see if the injector's sprayed..

And they sprayed.. but not every time you try and start it.

Eg turn it over - no spray. Try again - spray. Try again - spray. Try again - no spray.

:S

So nothing ignition related that controls the injectors?

[saxo-parts]

theres bound to be a tie-in somewhere between the ignition side of things and the injector timing and between the 2 the signal runs through the ecu but what? beanimoo, come on!

[stevo67]

theres bound to be a tie-in somewhere between the ignition side of things and the injector timing and between the 2 the signal runs through the ecu but what? beanimoo, come on!

Would a faulty ignition switch affect it?:drink:

[saxova]

Would a faulty ignition switch affect it?:drink:

I hope so, almost a week without a carrr :panic:

[Simo7]

Get yourself a set of noid lights to check the injectors are recieving a steady signal. You basically plug these lights into the injector wiring harness where you would plug the injector, then crank the engine, making sure your battery is fully charged. What your looking for is a steady strobe light effect from the light, if it is intermittent or non existent your injectors are not recieving the correct signal. If they are indeed recieving a correct signal then check the injectors themselves, an easy way to check the injectors is to get a long screwdriver and put the tip of it on the top of the injector and put your ear to the end of the screwdriver handle, have the car cranked over and listen for a metallic clicking sound, this will let you know if the injectors are firing and working correctly. If even one injector is bad the ECU can sometimes recognise a fault and it can effect the way all of the injectors operate. As you have already ruled out a faulty ecu, there could be a fault in your engine wiring loom. Its a little tedious to check all of the wiring in the engine bay but it can cause headaches if there is even a tiny snag or break in a wire or plug, even loose fitting multiplugs can cause problems. I looked at a fiesta a few months back with very similair problems and it turned out to be a cracked multiplug on one of the injectors. Also don't rule out engine sensors, a faulty coolant temp sensor can mess up your fuelling.

[Beaniemoo]

Quick question, did you check the injectors spray with the coil unplugged? A 106 Gti we were working on had an injector out and when testing it we found that with the coil unplugged the injectors do not spray!
Right if it was my car I would, first of all check you have an ignition feed to all your injectors. Basically unplug all your injectors, put one multimeter/test light wire on one pin of the injector and 1 on an earth. With the ignition on the multimeter should show 12v or test light should light up, if not, try the other pin. If you have no feed, you either have a broken wire from your injection relay to you your injectors or somehow one of the circuits in your injector relay has gone down and you'll need a new, though I think you've said you'd tried one didn't you?
Next step, as long as you have a feed would be to check the switching signal. This time put the multimeter on volts with one wire on pin 1 on the injector plug, and the other on pin 2, next turn the engine over with the key and as much as the multimeter will struggle to keep up with the speed it should show a voltage flickering about.
If you have nothing you need to check the wiring from engine ecu to injectors, and maybe check the engine ecu earth as you may have a poor sensor ground.
The injectors are switched internally in the ecu dependent on information received from all your engine sensors but don't get too carried away just throwing sensors at it unless you have reasonable grounds to do so as that diagnosis method gets very expensive very fast lol

[saxova]

Cheer's beaniemoo!

Yeah i've had the coilpack unplugged all along.. =/ I'll try it with it plugged in and see what the outcome is. EDIT - tried with it plugged in, and it's still random IE not spraying on EVERY turn. Might put it all together and see if it'll run..

And yeah i've tried 2 different injector relay's from 100% working car's.

I'll check earth's again (again, again) :P. They really are sanded back to bare metal, so should have a very good earth. However it's worth another check..

Borrowing a mate's volt meter today, see what signal the injector's are getting,

Simo7 - I have taken the fuel rail off, so I can physically see the injector's spraying

'If even one injector is bad the ECU can sometimes recognise a fault and it can effect the way all of the injectors operate. As you have already ruled out a faulty ecu,'

One of the injector's was actually leaking abit. Which may be the reason I had a dodgy idle. And reading what you said, it could of caused the ecu to effect the others.. I haven't ruled out ECU yet - as I don't have a spare unlocked 3 plug VTS ecu.

I'll try all suggested and get back to you,

Cheer's for help lads..

[citroen_saxo_vtr]

Im not going to sound big headed but it your ECU. I have had the exact same problem I have had 2 16v 3 plug ecu's on it and it ran fine for a few months then bang it wont let fuel through, it burns the injector part out in the ecu and is common on 3 plug ecus that have been unlocked so your best bet is to find a doner 3 plug vts and take the hole lock and imob setup so you have a locked ecu but all the chipped key etc. This is the fault with mine but i unlocked my furio ecu before conversion so luckily it will run on that but not as it should.

[saxova]

WOOOOOOHOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO.

It's alive!!

Must of been because of the leaky injector? - I'm not sure.. Just put it all back together and it worked 1st try.

going for a long awaited drive.. I'll log on with my fone when I break down... :D

[s555dan]

Well done getting it going!

[saxova]

Didn't break down lol..

Thanks all who helped, i'll let this thread die now.. =]