end of modifying?

[e8_pqck]

Saw this on Ph, apparently the ACE was setup specifically to oppose this legislation but it looks like its close to law. Might be the end to modified cars like some EU countries are already.

http://www.the-ace.org.uk/armageddon/

[e8_pqck]

Think I said this in a past thread about the after market hid lights, they only start by taking small things, one at a time, the safety items that majority agree with, then before you know it we have it all taken away.

When do people learn, you have to fight for the small things, don't let them take anything away, because they just end up taking the lot. Another piece of freedom gone.

[MPHZONE]

Wait.. think how many modified cars there are on the road, that is basically saying they are all now illegal if that passes? Total BS.

[Prickle]

Doubt it. Lolol..

It wont stop me adding my little parts to my motor. boom.

[LSOfreak]

mods have been 'nearly banned' for years

wont ever happen

[e8_pqck]

Looks like its been going through for years, close to becoming law that's all, consultations have already been draughted and reviewed, its like ACE say, people will only take notice once its law, be to late by then.

[e8_pqck]

Thread on Ph, easier reading for those not into links:

http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&f=57&t=1187860&nmt=

[DAMSK11]

Would put so many people out of business. Won't happen. hopefully

[Gandi699]

so if I'm right, non OEM parts are going to be illegal as its technically a modification? thats thousands of pattern parts places out of business

[cyne]

It has not sustained any change in the technical characteristics of its main components such as engine, brakes, steering or suspension

Seems extreme? Providing that the alterations are improvements to the standard specifications why would it matter if you put better brakes or better springs on?

[e8_pqck]

No, pattern parts would be assupplier intended, the car has to be type approved so not modified beyond the original design. Pattern parts are fine.

open cone filter, turbo, cams ecu etc are not. Stainless exhaust you might get away with but would need noise limit prob.

[craig180]

No, pattern parts would be assupplier intended, the car has to be type approved so not modified beyond the original design. Pattern parts are fine.

open cone filter, turbo, cams ecu etc are not. Stainless exhaust you might get away with but would need noise limit prob.

Contradiction much?

Don't sweat. It won't happen. Ever.

[holdawayt]

This thread pops up every year. They cant even decide on whats an acceptable amount of stretch - how the feck are they going to check for internal engine components and the like?

Don't worry kids, it's not going to happen.

[Brettles1986]

The modifying industry is huge and generates massive amount of revenue via VAT for the government. Let's look at it kind of like cigarettes, they may frown upon it but it's too lucrative to get rid of completely.

[MuZiZZle]

Think I said this in a past thread about the after market hid lights, they only start by taking small things, one at a time, the safety items that majority agree with, then before you know it we have it all taken away.

When do people learn, you have to fight for the small things, don't let them take anything away, because they just end up taking the lot. Another piece of freedom gone.


small things like badly aligned 15k HIDs some teenager has stuck in with juicy fruit that blind the rest of the general public?

[Davo106]

It wont happen, even if it did it wouldnt stop 90% of the people anyway.

[blackie_2k5]

Wouldn't stop me

If it does we'll just all have to congregate round the nearest vosa centre and light some fires...

[Jonny52002]

This would never happen, think of the industry that would be killed off in these already difficult times and how would it be enforced.

So long as modified items are fitted safely and dont effect a cars saftey aspects and emissions output, whats the harm ?

[TomT]

Fuck, hope they don't find out I've fitted cup holders and my model didn't come with them, will I go to jail?

[e8_pqck]

Hey, i hope it doesn't but if you actually read the information and understand it then it frighteningly close to being approved through the EU.

It's not about waiting for it to happen, just be aware of what is going on and find out what we can do about it. i dont want it to happen anymore than anyone else.

For me, i dont want them to take anything away, even things i dont like such as barryboy bodykits - because in the end they take something away that i do like.

[e8_pqck]

In short:

"We have unfortunately now been proved correct with a single item before the EC parliament that will prevent any modifying and will, currently, render already modified cars illegal."

This is bad too:

"... introduce a definition for a roadworthiness test that components of the vehicle must comply with characteristics at the time of first registration. This may prevent most modifications to vehicles without further approval of the vehicle. (this will apply to many components and to all types of vehicle)"

NEW definition of historic:

“(7) ‘vehicle of historic interest’ means any vehicle which fulfils all the following conditions :

It was manufactured at least 30 years ago,
It is maintained by use of replacement parts which reproduce the historic components of the vehicle;
It has not sustained any change in the technical characteristics of its main components such as engine, brakes, steering or suspension and
It has not been changed in its appearance;"

This comes into effect on 13 October. I think it'll be rolled into the MOT test.

[e8_pqck]

The procedure for becoming law is :-

http://www.europarl.europa.eu/aboutparliament/en/0080a6d3d8/Ordinary-legislative-procedure.html

Once forwarded it only takes two readings by EU Parliament and EU Council without objection and it becomes law !!

The ‘proposal’ has already been forwarded to both Parliament and the Council as detailed here :-

http://tinyurl.com/ccjr93n

of document: 13/07/2012
of transmission: 13/07/2012; Forwarded to the Parliament
of transmission: 13/07/2012; Forwarded to the Council ”

[JamesR]

Doubt it will happen but if it did then it would be pretty awful tbh - The modified car industry is enourmous though, parts companies, shows, websites, enthusiasts, trackdays etc etc would all take an enourmous hit, the economy already isnt great, so I cant see the them passing this.

[smiith]

HID's were banned the moment they came out.. Not because they are a modification, but because they are stupidly bright when used with reflectors, and not projectors as they were designed for, causing dazzling to other road users..

Nothing to do with taking bit by bit..

It will never happen.. Modifying is banned in belgium, they just spend the day before an MOT returning the car to standard..

[dannygti]

It's not going to happen,, doesn't matter what babble you read this country can't afford to make such a drastic change! Tens of thousands of comany's will go bust not to mention the damage to the Motorsport industry. It's gone too far for it to be changed now, they had to implement this doezens of years ago like the other countries..

[m4tt274]

Raises some serious questions:
What about if standard parts are no longer available?
What about non performance mods like parking sensors or a tow bar?
Also,
How would it be enforced?
How many companies would go under as a result?
How many jobs would be lost as a result?

[e8_pqck]

I think the plan is to have the car pass an iva test, so this will declare it safe for the road. Just another 199 quid, and also not an easy test to pass.

[smiith]

For an old bloke, you are pretty easily led.. Not all EU law things apply to us.. On the continent, its a legal requirement to carry a safety triangle thing, and spare bulbs, and a high vis jacket.. Not here.. Just as an example..

The other countries made their laws tens of years ago, which is why they work, here, there are too many modified cars on the road, it would be IMPOSSIBLE to enforce.. Would they start pulling cars over for aftermarket alloy wheels? aftermarket sound systems? Where would it start and end?

No matter what dribble you read on the internet, it'll never happen in england.

[holdawayt]

Don't believe everything you read on the internet. Remember the rumours abiut the driving age changing?

As said, try to prove that my high comp pistons and high lift cams are aftermarket. They simply will not do it. It would be too costly for the economy. They have bigger fish to fry than modded cars.

[Manu]

like the government would pass something that would lose billions in VAT and add costs for all those early retired retailers going on the dole...

[e8_pqck]

While i dont think we'll see the end of civilisation, there will certainly be some changes coming and i don't think they will be in our favour. Safety and the environment aren't words associated with the tuning scene, so expect to see some changes.

Wether this happens in 1 year or 5 years, it's too soon for me not to worry about it, so im quite happy to lend my support and oppose any of these changes.

it will probably be minor things like wheels must be the correct size and fitment and exhaust must be within a sound limit etc Turbochargers and superchargers will probably be out completely unless you pay for a test. Either way we will lose somewhere.

Not sure why people think its fantasy, the directive exists that is certain, how it looks when it comes into force is entirely something else, just dont expect it to be favourable to your current past time of modding cars.

You have to look at the alternative, while it may put tuners out of business, it will generate more newer car sales, make our roads safer, improve emmission standards, more pattern part sales, no noise pollution. if the home mechanic is at an end will it generate more business for the mechanic?

While it's not time to panic, we're certainly not out the woods yet.

[smiith]

While i dont think we'll see the end of civilisation, there will certainly be some changes coming and i don't think they will be in our favour. Safety and the environment aren't words associated with the tuning scene, so expect to see some changes.

Wether this happens in 1 year or 5 years, it's too soon for me not to worry about it, so im quite happy to lend my support and oppose any of these changes.

it will probably be minor things like wheels must be the correct size and fitment and exhaust must be within a sound limit etc Turbochargers and superchargers will probably be out completely unless you pay for a test. Either way we will lose somewhere.

Not sure why people think its fantasy, the directive exists that is certain, how it looks when it comes into force is entirely something else, just dont expect it to be favourable to your current past time of modding cars.

You have to look at the alternative, while it may put tuners out of business, it will generate more newer car sales, make our roads safer, improve emmission standards, more pattern part sales, no noise pollution. if the home mechanic is at an end will it generate more business for the mechanic?

While it's not time to panic, we're certainly not out the woods yet.

LOL Safety and environment.. So they will ban brake upgrades for safety reasons? Or stop remapping, which is proven to make most dervs more economical, for environmental reasons..

RIIIIIGGGGHHHHTTTTT

Its scare mongering.. Plenty of things get put down in writing, and never reach it to law.. Such as drinking age to 21, driving age to 18..

NEVER
GOING
TO
HAPPEN

Edit: Another one that was in writing not so long ago.. Making it for your 1st year or whatever of driving, you couldn't drive at night, or with passengers at night, some shit like that.. Would never happen, you don't do it, you can't learn.. It would be like saying you can pass your test, but not drive for a year, then be expected to be a really good driver... Its stupid upperclass people who only want their rollers on the road, and believe everyone else is a yob, and out to get in their way..

If one law should be passed, it should be resitting your test when you get to 60-70..

[saladdodger]

panic panic panic

[titchster]

I read this earlier, and alarm bells started ringing to me straight away, would they really do away with modified cars full stop..? I read the comments on the FB link I got it from, and this comment stood out to me;

Guys seriously chill. This guy knows nothing about EU Law. The Regulation says nothing about banning mods. It simply states that member states, ie the UK, have to ensure roadworthiness tests such as MOTs (which we already have) get carried out.

All that is suggested by the chap at the DfT is his opinion on how that will be interpreted into UK law. I've done law for 5 years and the first thing to note is what is clearly said in the document -

"Roadworthiness testing is a sovereign activity and should therefore be done by the Member States or by entrusted bodies under their supervision(IE NOT THE EU). Member States should remain responsible for roadworthiness testing in any cases even if the national system allows for authorisation of private bodies, including those involved in performing repairs."

EU Law is not going to magically make mods illegal. Its up to our government to decide on what should be legal and what shouldnt be legal. I think what could happen is that MOT tests will start to fail unsafe mods/unenvironmentally friendly mods (which it already does to a certain extent). But at what point can they legitimately argue that me putting uprated brakes, suspension and a weld in cage with harnesses on a car is not making the car "roadworthy" or "safe".

Please dont spread this doc all its creating is confusion and panic imho.


Essentially it just seems to be saying MOTs should take modifications into account...

[manta]

lololololololololololololololololol

Yeah, that's gunna happen.

[devilsadvocate]

Buy cars which are better as standard....

[Prickle]

Buy cars which are better as standard....

The solution everyone!

Get y0 credit cards out, remortgage y0 house, empty y0 pockets and do this! not sure if srs dude, i mean not everyone can afford to do it.. hi ross.

[jasonmayall]

Buy cars which are better as standard....

This will be the only choice by the looks of it.
Never know, they might bring the scrapage scheme back in again, which will mean more of our classics end up as coke cans!

[titchster]

Buy cars which are better as standard....

Modifying cars is my hobby. It's what I enjoy doing. Any standard car (within reason) can be improved for the individual in some way or another...

[iVTR]

It's no good saying 'It won't happen. Ever.'

In France it's already happening to bikes.

I don't think it will be long till some form of bullshit comes into play.

Not that it will stop me, I try to live how I want to, without breaking laws un-necissarilyllylylylyl (cant spell that ;))

But some laws just.. meh get broken.

:y:

[e8_pqck]

In germany they can't add any modifications that aren't TUV approved, so tuning houses have to have all their parts approved before they can sell them and of course they have to pass tests etc.. Will probably just end up being a very very expensive hobby.

Italy has the size and wheel combination added to the vehicle docs so you cant get an MOT without having the manufacturer approved wheel and tyre size

I think you can see where it's potentially going.

I thougt it was already happening to bikes in the UK, don't exhausts have to be approved etc..

[MuZiZZle]

In germany they can't add any modifications that aren't TUV approved, so tuning houses have to have all their parts approved before they can sell them and of course they have to pass tests etc.. Will probably just end up being a very very expensive hobby.

Italy has the size and wheel combination added to the vehicle docs so you cant get an MOT without having the manufacturer approved wheel and tyre size

I think you can see where it's potentially going.

I thougt it was already happening to bikes in the UK, don't exhausts have to be approved etc..

Errr, have you been to Italy?

I could probably get a car MOT'd that was on fire over there

[chris-hall-yo]

least there will be loads more insane sleepers around

[smiith]

In germany they can't add any modifications that aren't TUV approved, so tuning houses have to have all their parts approved before they can sell them and of course they have to pass tests etc.. Will probably just end up being a very very expensive hobby.

Italy has the size and wheel combination added to the vehicle docs so you cant get an MOT without having the manufacturer approved wheel and tyre size

I think you can see where it's potentially going.

I thougt it was already happening to bikes in the UK, don't exhausts have to be approved etc..

All parts here are supposed to be Stamped with BS, and be DOT (department of transportation) Approved.. How many times have you been stopped and had all your parts checked? Because not once police man has said anything to me..

[AXracing]

The EU was after this for a very long time and many places such as France already run to these regulation. Sadly as modified cars became more popular there where more idiots making modifications with no regards to other road users that have forced a move to these more and more stringent regs. Though i would say that the UK already has plenty of legislation to stop most modified vehicles already but chose simply not to enforce them for the most parts. That is why many people get away with blatantly illegal vehicles. So the if this does come in to force it will not stop mods just like none of the other laws have stopped whatever it was they where trying to stop. Because there are always plenty who simply ignore the law.

[AXracing]

All parts here are supposed to be Stamped with BS, and be DOT (department of transportation) Approved.. How many times have you been stopped and had all your parts checked? Because not once police man has said anything to me..

You are partly correct. BS is the British standard a E marked is the EU standard. Both are fine for UK vehicles. DOT is actually a US standard that has no relevance in the UK. Well apart from we use brake fluid to the same DOT standards but are still E marked, confusing i know. But for lights, tyres, seat belts, air bags and so on DOT is not a permuted standard within the UK. Hence why if you import a car from the US you have to change many parts to make it road legal.

[smiith]

You are partly correct. BS is the British standard a E marked is the EU standard. Both are fine for UK vehicles. DOT is actually a US standard that has no relevance in the UK. Well apart from we use brake fluid to the same DOT standards but are still E marked, confusing i know. But for lights, tyres, seat belts, air bags and so on DOT is not a permuted standard within the UK. Hence why if you import a car from the US you have to change many parts to make it road legal.

Ahhh i got told when i got told off for HID's that it needed to be DOT tested, for them to be road legal.. So was just going on what the officer at the time told me.. Thats the one i was trying to think of, E marked, or a kite, one or the other..

[AzzAW93]

is this the end for all forms of motorsport that use public roads and highways aswell then?

[e8_pqck]

All parts here are supposed to be Stamped with BS, and be DOT (department of transportation) Approved.. How many times have you been stopped and had all your parts checked? Because not once police man has said anything to me..

I don't think that's entirely true, as far as i'm aware the mot is the only test for fitted items such as an exhaust, which shouldn't be unduly loud. If we have BS introduced for all exhausts they will no doubt be limited to a decibel output.

Where is it that limits the power to weight of vehicles, somewhere like Finland or something.

[smiith]

I don't think that's entirely true, as far as i'm aware the mot is the only test for fitted items such as an exhaust, which shouldn't be unduly loud. If we have BS introduced for all exhausts they will no doubt be limited to a decibel output.

Where is it that limits the power to weight of vehicles, somewhere like Finland or something.

Switzerland.. And if you read up, you will find that their law has been in place about 50 years.. Which means cars could be monitored from the start really, where as that would mean taking peoples current cars, and making them illegal to own..

And im pretty sure a car can fail and MOT for been too loud.. There will be an exact decibel limit somewhere.. Just like and overly loud car, can earn its owner a fine for disturbing the peace..

All parts fitted to a car, as said by AXRacing, nees a BS, or E mark.. Which approves it for road use..
You will find that most aftermarket exhausts come with a label saying "for track use only" or "not intended for road use"

[Andy_K]

I thought exhaust noise was currently testers discretion?

[e8_pqck]

I can only find a british standard for motorbike exhausts, there is no standard for cars, just the mot and even then its not specific limit our measured with a calibrated device, unless the tester calibrates his ears. Just like there is no BS for electric boost controllers or intercooler pipework and many other after market components, I doubt GMC have approved cams or manifolds either, the list goes on.

Either way its just speculation, well just have to see what the new directive brings.

[Mr_X]

Well hopefully the euro zone will be sucked up its own arse.

[StealthSteve]

so if I'm right, non OEM parts are going to be illegal as its technically a modification? thats thousands of pattern parts places out of business

You're not right.


the car has to be type approved so not modified beyond the original design.
Where did you get that from?? s'bullshit.

THIS WILL HAPPEN; those saying it won't simply don't understand how legislation works. The only way to stop it (not that it matters to any of us) is to gridlock London.


If we have BS introduced for all exhausts they will no doubt be limited to a decibel output.

Where is it that limits the power to weight of vehicles, somewhere like Finland or something.
We do, Bikes already have it. As for power to weight, we have that too. Mopeds etc all carry it, bikes are restricted for certain periods..

Everything is falling into place slowly.

One key sentence in the entire thing, which I have read word-for-word, is this:
"Inappropriate repair or modification means a repair or modification that adversely affects the road safety of the
vehicle or has a negatieffect on the environment."

Your cars basically have to meet or exceed the exact same safety and engine efficiency standards it had the day it was made.

[StealthSteve]

What I'm not sure on, (and its the MOT guys that decide on each car) is how they decide of a part conforms to standard.

Say I fit a new coilover kit to a mates saxo, which type-approved etc etc, and we lower it 10mm - will it pass because it's approved or will it fail because it's lowered and alters the handling/possible safety? - yep, handling should be improved but it depends on what the MOT guy says.

[StealthSteve]

Also, since I said I'd read it - for anyone that understands both legal speak and real English here's the special bit with all the rules in:

Feel free to correct me on anything, hope I'm wrong!
http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=COM:2012:0380:FIN:EN:HTML

[AXracing]

You're not right.



Where did you get that from?? s'bullshit.

THIS WILL HAPPEN; those saying it won't simply don't understand how legislation works. The only way to stop it (not that it matters to any of us) is to gridlock London.



We do, Bikes already have it. As for power to weight, we have that too. Mopeds etc all carry it, bikes are restricted for certain periods..

Everything is falling into place slowly.

One key sentence in the entire thing, which I have read word-for-word, is this:
"Inappropriate repair or modification means a repair or modification that adversely affects the road safety of the
vehicle or has a negatieffect on the environment."

Your cars basically have to meet or exceed the exact same safety and engine efficiency standards it had the day it was made.

agree. Its like the UK smoking laws. More tax after more tax. Then more laws limiting on where you can smoke. Laws increasing the age you can smoke. Its clear the aim is to take people right to smoke away from them. But they do it one step at a time to avoid mass outrage and possible revolution.

Same is true to UK gun laws. Over the past 20 years its just one law after another. Its clear that the aim to eradicate weapons from all but a select few. Even air guns these days can only be sold by registered firearms dealers. Have to be locked up out of reach of children and so on. Many airguns are band outright now. Will not be long until there licensed.

It should be called fascist Britain not Great Britain the way we are going :n:

[smiith]

agree. Its like the UK smoking laws. More tax after more tax. Then more laws limiting on where you can smoke. Laws increasing the age you can smoke. Its clear the aim is to take people right to smoke away from them. But they do it one step at a time to avoid mass outrage and possible revolution.

Same is true to UK gun laws. Over the past 20 years its just one law after another. Its clear that the aim to eradicate weapons from all but a select few. Even air guns these days can only be sold by registered firearms dealers. Have to be locked up out of reach of children and so on. Many airguns are band outright now. Will not be long until there licensed.

It should be called fascist Britain not Great Britain the way we are going :n:

The air guns bit is bull.. you can still own an air gun, without fire arms, it just has to be under 12lb power.. Which is quite alot, you can easily take a rabit or rat out from a good distance with a 12lb gun, because i do it a few nights a week, and my 11lb CO2 gun can easily kill with a simple head shot..

[e8_pqck]

The air guns bit is bull.. you can still own an air gun, without fire arms, it just has to be under 12lb power.. Which is quite alot, you can easily take a rabit or rat out from a good distance with a 12lb gun, because i do it a few nights a week, and my 11lb CO2 gun can easily kill with a simple head shot..

Well thanks for clearing that up.

I think the point is more to do with the rising flood of laws and restrictions, very soon it won't be 12lb, that will slowly be eroded over the coming years.

We keep agreeing these silly new rules and putting our own freedom at risk in the name of safety, take "safety cameras" used for monitoring town centres for lawlessness and thugs, all they do is report people for parking on double yellows or disabled spaces. Britain is certainly no free country.

[smiith]

It'll still never happen. It says you cant modify your car in an unsafe way.. Just the same as people say you can't do engine conversions, but you can, as long as a garage signs the work off as safe.

[e8_pqck]

Where did you get that from?? s'bullshit.

THIS WILL HAPPEN; those saying it won't simply don't understand how legislation works. The only way to stop it (not that it matters to any of us) is to gridlock London.

Without checking, i'm pretty sure you didn't quote me in full, at least listen to what im saying, the basis of that statement was for discussion and viewpoint. I don't know what the document means yet, no-one does, we can only speculate and hope the bodies representing us give us a voice. I'll certainly be looking to do all i can myself where possible to support any resistance to this new EU regulation.

Though thanks for your input. At least you realise this isn't just rubbish and "nothing will happen" or it's just "internet rumours".

[e8_pqck]

It'll still never happen. It says you cant modify your car in an unsafe way.. Just the same as people say you can't do engine conversions, but you can, as long as a garage signs the work off as safe.

I hope you're right, but im not convinced either way. Que-sara?

[smiith]

I just don't see it.. They can't even keep up with the illegal mods on road cars, such as nos, so there is no way they can enforce all modifications, how would a garage know if you had new internals and cams put in? They can't be expected to know the specs and power from every single car..

[AXracing]

The air guns bit is bull.. you can still own an air gun, without fire arms,

Bull not really. I will show you a few examples.

My old Skan pump action air rifle that I got legally many years ago is now classed as section 5 firearm. Section 5 is prohibited and illegal for anyone to own with out the home office say so.

My old Brocock bolt action rifle the same is true to the above. They where once legal and now section 5 banned.

I know some one that had a early PCP rifle confiscated and though was legally acquired when new was now defined as a section 1 firearm because the police can now "tweak" rifles when testing them. So it could be made to fire just over 12ftlb.

You once where able to be able to buy air rifles mail order or in just about any shop that wished to sell them. Now you can only buy them from a registered firearms dealer you need ID and the gun has to be registered in your name.

The newest laws require airgun to be safely secured. In a safe, locked room or gun box. When not so long ago you could happily hang them off your wall.

The laws keep getting tighter and tighter. You can see where there going and would be a fool to think the laws will stop where they are now.