Best race battery

[e8_pqck]

as title really, seem to be a few to choose from - so what has a good life span and wont lose a charge and lightweight. suggestions/experience welcome. thanks.

[KamRacing]

Braille Batteries

[AlexB]

ive got a cheapy rmd one atm which ill be fitting in the next few weeks
was in my mates daily and he never had problems
his starter died and he thought battery had (tbh i did too lol :oops: ) so bought and oddysey and it was going spare so i nabbed it

the oddysey seems to have a much better starting ampage though
im hoping the rmd will be man enough for some silly compression ratios soon

[jpsaxo]

Lithium ION batteries are the way forward, lighter then gel and alot more powerful

[Beaniemoo]

I had an odyssey in my old black Saxo and and a fair few issues with it going flat, I have to admit I wasn't impressed.
Especially when I compare it to the Varley red top in my brothers clio! It's been in the car for most the build of the car, the 4 years it's been on the road and even with very little use, it's never needed charging and it's always started first time!
It is getting slightly lazy now in its old age, but that's to be expected.
I'd really recommend them.
I'm tempted by a lithium ion one like josh mentioned for the yellow car though as its a lot lighter

[axsaxoman]

race battery for road use ?
WHY
you can lower the weightby fitting a better quality smaller battery --EG honda type R battery and never have any problems for around £50
the total weight saving effect on car performance is so small .
add to that the known problems of ALL race type batteries in a road car situation and extra cost
car makers would fit them if there was a real advantage to economy ,and the volume they could buy them in would make the price very little diffeent for them to a std battery .

[AlexB]

only reason im going is space
dont want to relocate but i need a very small battery to allow room for a few other things

mind its a track car so no real road use lol

[wadoryu]

I'm buying a bike battery, half the weight of a car battery and pretty cheap.

[jpsaxo]

Lithium ION is also half the size of a gel battery. Win win situation tbh

[Alanapone]

race battery for road use ?
WHY
you can lower the weight by fitting a better quality smaller battery --EG Honda type R battery and never have any problems for around £50
the total weight saving effect on car performance is so small .
add to that the known problems of ALL race type batteries in a road car situation and extra cost
car makers would fit them if there was a real advantage to economy ,and the volume they could buy them in would make the price very little different for them to a std battery .

Because we don't know the tricks and cheats like guys like yourselves do. I'll look into smaller batteries. What's the minimum you think you would need power wise?

Lithium ION is also half the size of a gel battery. Win win situation tbh

BUT twice the price... or more!!

[jpsaxo]

Well... If your spending £50 you might as well spend £150 :D lol

[Dave_P]

www.skyrichbattery.co.uk

[e8_pqck]

race battery for road use ?
WHY
you can lower the weightby fitting a better quality smaller battery --EG honda type R battery and never have any problems for around £50
the total weight saving effect on car performance is so small .
add to that the known problems of ALL race type batteries in a road car situation and extra cost
car makers would fit them if there was a real advantage to economy ,and the volume they could buy them in would make the price very little diffeent for them to a std battery .

I posted in the track car section as it's not for a road car hence why i want something that will hold a charge and not go flat at the drop of a hat.

[jpsaxo]

www.skyrichbattery.co.uk

This!!

[Dave_P]

I posted in the track car section as it's not for a road car hence why i want something that will hold a charge and not go flat at the drop of a hat.

I would suggest using a trickle charger if your using a wee battery, just to keep the battery fully charged if the car isn't being used alot.

[slammed106]

Braille get used in a few competition vehicles i see but they aint cheap

[axsaxoman]

typr R batteyr is same length as std one but about half the width and same output as std --fits behind passenger seat no problem

[deano_123]

Lithium ION is also half the size of a gel battery. Win win situation tbh

charging cycle life is tiny compared with gel and acid batteries though

[jpsaxo]

charging cycle life is tiny compared with gel and acid batteries though

Not really, they are the same as phone batteries and I have no issue charging my iPhone up a million times a day lol

[Ross]

I run a red top 25 in the 106 and it's genuinely awesome. Went weeks without being touched (like 3 months) and starts on the button as if it was just charged.

When it eventually dies (it's about 3 years old now), I'll replace it with a lithium ion one like Josh's - even smaller, even lighter, and more powerful. Oh, and cheaper too. Absolutely no drawbacks as far as I can see, unless you're running a large stereo or something, in which case battery weight isn't your problem :p

[jpsaxo]

+ even more cranking power Ross :)

[Ross]

+ even more cranking power Ross :)

I'm sold already - fuck off Josh I can't afford it right now :p :D

[deano_123]

Not really, they are the same as phone batteries and I have no issue charging my iPhone up a million times a day lol

which has a tiny output compared to what is needed for a car, we run thousands of lithium cells at work and they have a life cycle of 1000 charges

[Ross]

which has a tiny output compared to what is needed for a car, we run thousands of lithium cells at work and they have a life cycle of 1000 charges

Presumably that's 1000 full discharge/recharge cycles?

[deano_123]

Presumably that's 1000 full discharge/recharge cycles?

yes, charging when a lithium is not fully discharged affects the life of the battery. im no wizard on them, this is just what i gather from speaking to the techs at work

[jpsaxo]

which has a tiny output compared to what is needed for a car, we run thousands of lithium cells at work and they have a life cycle of 1000 charges

About 10years worth minimum then for how much me and Ross use our cars lol

[jpsaxo]

I'm sold already - fuck off Josh I can't afford it right now :p :D

Double sold Lol!

[Ross]

About 10years worth minimum then for how much me and Ross use our cars lol

haha :D My car started just fine when it was last started. November 2011. :p

[Jungle]

I might try one of those lithium batteries

[Alanapone]

yes, charging when a lithium is not fully discharged affects the life of the battery. im no wizard on them, this is just what i gather from speaking to the techs at work

Nah, the Ni-Cad's used to suffer from something called memory syndrome. This meant that if a battery was at 20% when placed on charged, it would only recharge 70-75% of the battery due to the temperatures that the battery reaches during charging. This would leave even a new battery without a totally full charge.

Lithium batteries do not suffer from this as they charge at a steady temperature. This means that they typically charge to 99.9%. This also means that they last longer and provide a better starting charge.

This is just knowledge I have gained through my job as a fire alarm engineer. We tend to use sealed lead acid batteries as they are cheap but things are beginning to change and were starting to see other types of battery being used and tested. This is what I have been told by our technical bods so if I'm wrong let me know. I do know for fact the Litiums don't suffer from memory syndrome though :D

[axsaxoman]

has anybody actually priced up a suitably sized ION battery + charger
It strikes me the costs far outweight any miniscule advantage
I know the batteries for my wheel gun cost over £150 each and need a specific charger that looks at cell temp and things and have a limited no. of charges and then they are done .
So i am wondering how they could work correctly with an alternator on a car ,which is wanting to charge them all the time ?.

I have only seen ION batteries fitted to things that use power and do not expect to be recharged all the time and are not expected to need to supply maybe 300amps for a short time ,

IIf car makers using these sort of batteries cannot get them at a sensible price
citoren electric car costs £8000 for a set of batteries- and they cannot charge them up quickly without shortening the life by 50% ,then I cannot see this being a viable idea


maybe on a REAL race car that does not have a charging system and you have multiple batteries to swop after you have done 1/2hr on the track it may work --but at what cost
you want to save weight that seriously --then buy some very light mag wheels at £500 a pop and improve your un-sprung weight at same time
I worked it out that best combo of wheels +tyres for a saxo race car over std road wheels+tyres you could save at least 20kgs

[jpsaxo]

I can only comment by experience John - My Lithium Ion is charged with the standard alternator and has been used in my Saxo over the UK summer with absolutely no issues. The only difference with my set up is that the alternator is geared down slightly so it has less drag on the engine.

It was then left standing for 4months solid (engine was just turned over by hand) & battery was stored inside a warm house. I then came back at Christmas, checked the battery life and its was still on 100% - it started the engine first time. Lithium Ion doesn't suffer from memory loss - as posted above.

The Lithium Ion battery is Smaller, has 10x the cranking power/actual power & doesn't lose it's memory. So even if it was halved by 50% as you suggest it would STILL have 5x MORE than a conversional acid battery or Gel race battery AND It was weighs a lot less than the standard (Standard battery must be 8/9/10kg?) where as my lithium Ion weighs in @ 960grams - yes NOT even 1kg - and to save 8-9kg just by changing the battery for £150 is an absalute steal - every little bit helps.

[wadoryu]

Coming from the man with carpets and a standard heater matrix :P
Ijoke
I can see where johns coming from though.

[Alanapone]

Hmm. Looked into Lith-Ion this morning after seeing the posts.

The batterys seem to be okay in most cases as JP is experienceing. However, the car manufacturers and techy types are saying that while the batteries are a lot better power/weight & size they do have issues with exploding if overcharged, stored incorrectly or a few other things that I don't fully understand. The main thing from what I can see if that in a normal road car like say, the tesla, the batteries needed to be cooled and have a specific charging system built to reduce the risk of an explosion. this has meant that the Tesla is deemed safe and should see a 100,000 miles or 5 year life cycle from its power pack.

I think for cars such as JP's or even people like myself who's car is just for weekends and trackdays, the Lith-Ions should be fine to use as long as they are disconnected and stored somewhere at around 20-25 degrees C when they are not going to be in use for long periods.

The charging side of things the you mention John could be an issue in the long term as the standard charging setup on the saxo's isn't ideal for Lith-Ion. The battery it's self doesn't like being overcharged. I could forsee that in a full race car if the output from the alternator is sat too high for the battery for long periods it could cause some overheating but the battery also will not overcharge. At least this means your not going to get any surge type effect if you then need to restart the car.

I might have a bit more af a look into the charging etc later but the info I have gathered this morning is from battery university and a few google searches if anyone else wants to have a look and set me straight on anything i've got muddled up.

So in short... Personally, I wouldn't use a Litium-Ion battery in a normal road car BUT I would in a weekend warrior / track day or short session race car. A longer duration race car I would use them in but only if the alternator was modified to cap its output and some form of temp monitoring was used on the battery.

Hope this helps any?

P.S. It will be interesting to see how JP's battery fairs over the coming years. The batteries have a set lifespan not only for charge cycles but in years as well so, even if you don't use it, they degrade. Just a thought for people thinking they'll last forever. Five years is longer than some batteries though.

[Ross]

phew! Annnnnd breath!

I'll just stick with my red top 25 for now :p

Is small, light, and does the job.

As you say Alan, it will be interesting to see how JP gets on over the years to come, but I suspect it will be fine given that he never drives his car anyway and the battery is just dry stored :p

[Alanapone]

Lol, true.

I was thinking after posting that lots as well...

A lot of people move the battery to the rear of the car to balance weight etc. Why then go and fit a lightweight battery. I know their is not leaking if you end up the wrong way up but a decent battery box should contain that. Just a thought before people go buying light battery's and fitting them in the boot.

Again, J.P's is in the normal place so that makes more sense. Their is no long cabling needed etc that could cause more problems.

[jpsaxo]

Coming from the man with carpets and a standard heater matrix :P
Ijoke
I can see where johns coming from though.

What can i say... they arent even an option to remove for me. I'm getting old and the UK weather is freezing so I need to keep warm when I'm back :D

Interesting posts Alan, very informative

[Alanapone]

Cheers, I do try. Like I say though, I may have misinterpreted the stuff i've read so don't take it as gospel. I did have a good read about though :D

[jpsaxo]

Again I can only speak from experience... I've done the 4 hour trip to Sandy's twice (so 4 trips of 4hours+) and the battery has been perfect.

Even people using daily cars won't do trips much more than 4hours at any given time. If it survives the trip to the ring (about 8hours driving in total from Leicester) then I think we are safe to say its a go'er :)

[Alanapone]

Yeah, true.

[KamRacing]

Isn't it a lithium Ion battery in my iPhone that I keep in my pocket day in, day out??
Obviously a race battery may not be the best solution for an everyday car, but for people looking for an overall lightweight car then they should not be ignored.
There are plenty of small cars running small batteries that will work fine with a stripped out track inspired car.

[Alanapone]

It is Kam, but, it us also temperature monitored and has the correct charging system, unlike putting one in a car.

Like I said, I know a bit about batteries but I'm by no means an expert and a lot of what I've said was found by doing a bit of research. As were seeing on Josh's beast, it does Senn to be working fine but for a proper test I'd like to see how it would fair on a daily drivers doing a mix of driving day to day.

As is usually the case with me, I will probably end up wrong (as JP is proving lol) and all the info I've put up will be proven as rubbish. :homme:

[e8_pqck]

It is Kam, but, it us also temperature monitored and has the correct charging system, unlike putting one in a car.

Like I said, I know a bit about batteries but I'm by no means an expert and a lot of what I've said was found by doing a bit of research. As were seeing on Josh's beast, it does Senn to be working fine but for a proper test I'd like to see how it would fair on a daily drivers doing a mix of driving day to day.

As is usually the case with me, I will probably end up wrong (as JP is proving lol) and all the info I've put up will be proven as rubbish. :homme:

Been good info so far, if anything it should spur us on to undertake research of our own. :y:

[wolf_gsxr]

read:
http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/is_lithium_ion_the_ideal_battery

... if there anything like li-po batterys id be very careful.. i had a home made uav that exploded mid air with a 10000mah 11.1v li-po battery.

Edit: and this is what happens to a tiny one when its overcharged. skip to 1.50 Lithium Ion Battery Explosion - YouTube

[jpsaxo]

Pretty scary watching that tbh... Mine was from 'Skyrich' batteries, im no expert on exactly which battery mine is. I guess it's a good job my alternator is geared down so it's charging less.

But again I can only go on personal experience of mine, longest trip I did was 4.5 hours from Cornwall back up to the midlands (see pic) with a 5 minute stop roughly halfway back for fuel

http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l58/jpsaxo/15A9D459-9D53-406E-AC5C-1B762B23B0A5-4116-000002F3C4ABB383.jpg

[wolf_gsxr]

ideally you could do with a car sized li-po alarm. and overcharge cutoff. Normal battery's are just charged but li-po, li-fe and li-ion battery's are balance charged so that each cell holds the same voltage as the next. if your car was hard to start and took a while to crank over and the cell voltage drops it could go bang.. or if you have a full battery and your alternator is ramming more volts through it it can go bang. However with the right precautions (voltage gauge/ some way of cutting the alternator) then they offer far more power than a standard battery for alot less weight.. that being said my battery knowledge comes from rc planes and airsoft guns so the car battery might have same built in protection..

[jpsaxo]

ideally you could do with a car sized li-po alarm. and overcharge cutoff. Normal battery's are just charged but li-po, li-fe and li-ion battery's are balance charged so that each cell holds the same voltage as the next. if your car was hard to start and took a while to crank over and the cell voltage drops it could go bang.. or if you have a full battery and your alternator is ramming more volts through it it can go bang. However with the right precautions (voltage gauge/ some way of cutting the alternator) then they offer far more power than a standard battery for alot less weight.. that being said my battery knowledge comes from rc planes and airsoft guns so the car battery might have same built in protection..

Yeah that was along the lines of what I was thinking, some kind of trip switch that would stop charging the battery once it hit its full charge & start charging it again once it's hit a certain minimum % of charge, don't suppose you have any info on these or potential trick bits of kit that could be used?

[e8_pqck]

Josh, have you not taken this battery to the ring? What pulleys have you got on, is it Sandys ally kit?

[wolf_gsxr]

There is lots of off the shelf stuff but there for 11.1/14v lipo's. il see what's I can find for ya. Does it have the specs printed on the battery? Like voltage, amps and ah?

[jpsaxo]

Josh, have you not taken this battery to the ring? What pulleys have you got on, is it Sandys ally kit?

Never took it to the ring, this year will be the first time...

Yep Sandy's race spec pully kit so it gears the alternator down (and in turn the drag) quite a bit

There is lots of off the shelf stuff but there for 11.1/14v lipo's. il see what's I can find for ya. Does it have the specs printed on the battery? Like voltage, amps and ah?

I'm sure it does have the spec on it however I'm the other side of the planet mate so can't check... Ill dig out some pictures and edit this post this evening for you mate :)

Edit:

http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l58/jpsaxo/33431CAE-0305-46AD-B618-C282EE982B23-1057-0000007F9FD42DBF.jpg

http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l58/jpsaxo/ED0C7C61-983F-459F-9E8F-A72EC5235EC3-1976-0000016BCBC1FFB9.jpg

Hope that helps? If not I can get my dad/brother to take pics & get the info you need at the weekend

[wolf_gsxr]

Not overly lol. What you could do is run a smart li-po trickle charger from a 12v supply on a switch with a volt gauge. So the alternator doesn't charge the battery it just gives 12v to the battery charger. Which means there's a possibility to run a smaller/ less power sapping alternator. In theory what should then happen is you start your car and it drains some of your battery. The charger then charges your battery nice and gently and cuts off when it's full. Like I said though this is for the lipo packs I know. A car one might have all the protective circuits built into the battery already. I'd try to phone/email the company and enquire about it. It's designed as a car battery and I assume I'd didn't come with a list of do and do not's so it could be fine, but you have a very nice car and considering a lipo battery the size of a matchbox can blow up a 2m wingspan plane out of the sky one that big will make a mess. That and the fumes it gives off are VERY poisonous.

Another interesting read and shows the power a tiny battery http://www.bigsquidrc.com/rc-myths-fact-or-fiction-lipo-car-starting/

[wolf_gsxr]

Right. Done some research on your specific battery and I have some good news. As its made of slightly different materials from a normal lithium battery it won't burn or explode and is less picky about being charged. The only requirement is font let the battery discharge to much (run flat) or don't let it exceed 15v. So all you need really is a volt meter to keep an eye on the voltage levels and possibly an alternator cutoff switch incase it gets close to 15v. That's said if its geared down it shouldn't be to bad. Sorry for previous scare mongering lol. You should be fine as long as the voltage stays below 15v.

[Jimmy-Boy]

Now about to buy one of these lit ion batts, how hard would it be to wire a trip if it reaches 15v+ ?

[wolf_gsxr]

You could have a volt gauge and have a manual cut off like the FIA red battery isolators hidden somewhere connected between the alternator and the battery. You can buy a battery charger for that exact battery on their website. You could wrie the alternator to power that an that will charge the battery/cut off when it's full. The only problem would be if the charger could handle the power the alternator puts out.

[Jimmy-Boy]

ok its a 100% track car so have you got any links for a manual cut off switch mate? thanks for sharing your knowledge too!

[jpsaxo]

Right. Done some research on your specific battery and I have some good news. As its made of slightly different materials from a normal lithium battery it won't burn or explode and is less picky about being charged. The only requirement is font let the battery discharge to much (run flat) or don't let it exceed 15v. So all you need really is a volt meter to keep an eye on the voltage levels and possibly an alternator cutoff switch incase it gets close to 15v. That's said if its geared down it shouldn't be to bad. Sorry for previous scare mongering lol. You should be fine as long as the voltage stays below 15v.

That's reassuring to hear mate, I've check what it's charging at :) what do they normally charge at? Like I said mine is geared down... But it also revs higher than standard so at constant high revs it could over charge?

[wolf_gsxr]

FIA switch go to demontweeks/rally design/ eBay I think there less than £20. What I'd suggest is get a multi meter and see what the peak amps/ volts are at the redline. that battery needs ideally no les that 14v and no more than 15v. The drain of the battery from starting it should be enough of a drop to let it charge while on track. So if its a track car it's pretty much plug and play. It's a shame you can't run the engine off the alternator like a crosser does with its coil thing. Battery just to start the car then just turn it off or wait till its charged and turn it off. That battery according to the makers won't ever blow up or set fire so at worst if you let the voltage get abit high is decrease it's lifespan.

[wolf_gsxr]

Right.. forget all of that and read this: http://www.skyrichbattery.com/p7/Lithium-Ion-Motorcycle-Battery/pages.html .... read each of the 5 things at the top (overview, installation guide, maintanence etc) its best you take there advice as its there battery and they explain things better than me lol.. hope this helps.

[jpsaxo]

That's awesome mate cheers for the info. Basically we should be sweet unless its overcharged at more than 15.0V

[wolf_gsxr]

Correct. Ideally to keep it fully charged it needs to be over 14v but you can top it up with a battery charger. You should be set to use it with your alternator geared down. I'd still be buying a volt gauge to to see when it gets low. That and I like fancy gauges lol.

[jpsaxo]

haha Ok sounds like a plan :D

Again - really appreciate your input!

[jsdvtr]

Anyone using a civic type r battery rather than a lightweight race one??

[jpsaxo]

Just the record - my lithium ion is still going strong :)

[e8_pqck]

If anyone's interested I blew mine up. Wasn't funny at the time, but it was now I think about it. Best bit was the look on Jessops face when it started spewing, what felt like radioactive steam towards the back of his head! lol

[jpsaxo]

That's because you put the terminals on the wrong way around Ian lol!