Advice?

[Visualaid]

Hey guys,

this has been partially talked about before on these boards, but i wanted abit of a summary. As i know putting on weight etc, training can be very different from person to person.

I have a very high metabolism rate. Im 17, going on 18 and im 6"2. I weigh in at 144.2(pounds) or 10.2(stone). Acording to my national BMI im 0.5 underweight.

Im getting sick of being tall and skinny. I have semi-toned muscles, but nothing of great mass or size. Im looking to increase. My overall size, and muscle%. Especially in my upper body as i want to fill out my t-shirts more, in my arms both triceps and biceps, shoulders & pecks.

Ive tried eating lots of chicken, some tuna(dont like it much), salmon, potatoes, banana. But none of it has helped much. I go to the gym 3 times a week and try and do short 45 minute sessions. With lots of weight and reduced rep amounts.

My question is, i recently bought a tub of creatine, but then decided before i start taking it religously would i benefeit from also taking a protein suppliment, for a month or 2 to put on some bulk and size. IT's really bugging me my size, and would be alot happier if i was a touch bigger.

Whats your advice guys?
Creatine alone?
Creatine + Protein Suppliment?
Neither, Good Diet?

thanks guys-

[Ryan]

DO NOT USE CREATINE!

it just gives you water retention.

bin it and dont waste more money.

have a balanced diet with plenty of meat for the protein, and then add carbs.

do plenty of work.

there will be no quick fix

[Visualaid]

as far as i was aware it was partial water retention, but not fully. Im still going to take it to see the effects for myself.

I just want some other advice. A high car/protein diet, wont work ive tried.

[bullit]

at the end of day mate your young and still growing and will fill out. i was thin at your age till after 19. anyway to say eating is not doing for you do you actually know how much you are meant to be eating, i used to eat every 2 and a half hours from waking to bed everyday, thats everyday. also in the gym what are you actually doing, a body routine you usually do,any cv or splitting bodyparts or what?

[Apz1]

Creatine does help but it wont make much of a difference at the start of your training, A good diet and a good weight training routine should be nailed befor you start worrying about using creatine and such.

You should be eating 6-7 meals a day, which should all include protien and carbs, you should also be gettin some good fats in your diet throughout the day.
If you are going to take any supplements I would use something like a weight gain shake, which will include protien and carbs, so it can be substituted as one of the 6-7 meals, I would not use it over 2 times in a day though because Solid food is still better, it is just an easier way to get the extra calories in to your diet.
If you did not see any results from changing your diet befor, it could of been your weight training routine, or your diet was still not good enough, You should be getting in about 3000-3500 calories a day to see real growth.

Post your Routine and Diet up and I will be able to tell you what you need to change.

[Visualaid]

wow i didnt know you had to have that many meals, i think the food is where im slipping up.

When i go to the gym, i do 45 minute workout. Low number of reps, 6-7 with lots of weight. I do 6-9 of these sets, with 3 minute breaks maybe 4 sometimes. I usually go gym and do as many muscle sets as i can, every 3 days.

my friend has reccomended a max ot, workout plan. I might give that ago for afew weeks.

when you say meal, how much do you mean?

got any good protein/carb meals/snacks i can be eating for these 6 meals.

thanks-

[Apz1]

6-9 sets is to many so you are possibly overtraining,

this is a 3 way split routine using 2 muscle groups a session. You shouldnt go move than every other day so your body has time to recover and build the muscle (so 3days a week is fine):

Work out A
Deadlifts
Bent-over Rows
Close Grip Chins

Work out B
Bench Press
Military Press
Tricep Dips

Work out C
Squats
Stiff Legged Deadlifts
Calf Raise

... and as for diet here are some staple foods to follow:

CARBS

Oats
Broccoli
Sweet Potato
Fiber Rich Veg
Wholegrain Bread
Basmati/Long Grain Rice
Whole-wheat Pasta
Whole meal Pitas
Spinach
Apples
Pears
Oranges
Peaches
Plums
New Boiled Potatoes
Yams
Muesli (natural no sugar added)
Natural bean soups
Herbal teas
Chickpeas
Split beans
Black beans
Barley
Onions
Tomatoes
Weetabix
Any root veg



PROTEINS
Chicken (skin & bones removed) breast ideally
Lean Red Meat
Tuna
Mackerel
Salmon
Low Fat Cottage Cheese
Quark
Turkey (skinless)
Sardines
Kippers
Whey Protein shakes
Veal
Venison
Soya Milk
Tofu
Quorn
Tempeh
Low fat Yoghurts
Lentils
Seeds
Egg Whites
Shellfish
Buttermilk
Bacon back
Instone Puddings
Halibut
Herring
Trout

GOOD FATS (+EFAs)
Olives
Olive Oil
Flax Seeds/Linseed
Flax Oil
Almonds
Cashews
Nut Butters (hazel/almond/cashew/peanut)
Fatty Fish (kippers/sardines/mackerel/salmon)
Avocados
Nut Oils
Columbus Eggs/DHA eggs
Seeds
Macadamia nuts
UDOs Oil
Fish Oils such as EPA oil and salmon oil

... I would also recommend buying some whey powder from somewhere like www.myprotein.co.uk (http://www.myprotein.co.uk)
To have straight after your workout.

[Apz1]

oh ye and 6 reps for 3 sets for the excercises.

[bullit]

apz with those exercises and those sets hes gonna be in the gym for five minutes. to put on size hes gotta be doing 3-4 of different excercises each bodypart. for example- workout 1, arms- 4 excercices on biceps, four excercises on triceps. workout 2, chest 4 back 4, workout 3 shoulders 4 legs 4. you can manage these in hour sessions with a minute rest between each sets.(keep your muscle warm)
eatings one thing, trainings another, get them both right your onto a winner.
to make muscle you need protein. your weight in kgs doubled divided by 6 meals is how much protein you need in each one. as for fats i wouldnt worry about them and carbs you wanna be filling yourself up at meal times. a basic rule i used if i started to put a bit of fat on id just cut back on my carbs a bit and if didnt id just eat more through the day. any questions feel free

[Apz1]

If you do them exercise properly you will be in the gym for atleast 45mins, I like do do a few warm up sets, and then on my working sets i would be lifting close to my 6Rep max so would be taking about 3-5 mins between sets in order to recover and be able to finish off my sets... 4 exercises on biceps is a sure way to overtrain, and let me guess you are talking about 4 isolation exercises i.e. 4 different ways of curling lol, whereas the big compound movements like i have suggested will work lots of muscles and help build core strength, the biceps will get hit in the bent over rows and pull ups at the same time as the lats and stabelising muscles and if you are adding weight to these everyweek i guarantee the weight you can curl will shoot up, alot more then doing 4 different curl exercises would increase them, you would also build all your back muscles and you would be alot bigger built.

As for not bothering with essential fatty acids this is a definate NO, if you neglect your EFAs then proper protein synthesis can not take place, thus takeing all that protein is useless!

Lift big on the Compounds, Eat big, and get rest is the only way to grow BIG muscles :thumbup:

[Apz1]

5x5 keeping the same weight throughout could also be applied 2 the routine, which may be a bit better for mass.

[bullit]

i know exactly what your saying with your excercises which will be a good starting point but to excel on each muscle group you do need to split them up and train intensely. i know exactly what your saying but the lad wants size and thats what ive said. resting between sets for that long is having to much time to recover to reach long muscle fibres as not enough sets will only work the small muscle fibres. your work out is more for strengh rather than bulk.

as for saying ive said too many sets for each bodypart. say biceps for example there is many parts to work on it so require different ecercises,eg excercises to train your inner bicep, outer bicep, lower upper,the peak of your bicep. im talking bollox now. same with everyother bodypart.

your right with the fats though, i did read bland i just meant as he has a high metabolism he hasnt really got to worry with the odd snack or chocolote bar. think thats about it

[Mitchell]

takeaways pack on the stones lad. ur just looking to fill out more, dont bother with a strict protein diet, chances are you wont even stick to it anyway.

just eat anythin u see, chocolate, takeaways, cerial, beer n fish suppers. it wont make u a chubby, your metabolisms too fast, you'll just be shittin most of it out.

[Apz1]

^^that is likely just to give him a fat gut... not a good look

i know exactly what your saying with your excercises which will be a good starting point but to excel on each muscle group you do need to split them up and train intensely. i know exactly what your saying but the lad wants size and thats what ive said. resting between sets for that long is having to much time to recover to reach long muscle fibres as not enough sets will only work the small muscle fibres. your work out is more for strengh rather than bulk.

as for saying ive said too many sets for each bodypart. say biceps for example there is many parts to work on it so require different ecercises,eg excercises to train your inner bicep, outer bicep, lower upper,the peak of your bicep. im talking bollox now. same with everyother bodypart.


The routine I have suggested is similar to routines made up by top trainers, People have increased there weight up 2 35lbs (2.5 stone) in as little as 6 months, any top bodybuilder would suggest big compound movements for mass building.

[Apz1]

and the workouts are very intense, i go 2 failure normally and need my spotter to take the weight off as i physically cant lift anymore.

[Mitchell]

2 scoops whey
2 servings oats
2 slices wheat bread
fish oil tabs---

2 scoops whey
vitamin d milk
pita bread

6 oz tuna
4 oz pasta
broccoli ---
udos

2 scoops whey
2 pears
1 orange
1 kiwi
udos

4 oz lean gnd beef
2 cups of brown rice
broccoli
cabbage

2 chicken breasts
2 bananas
2 scoops whey

4312 calories, WHAM!

rough copy of my diet atm, in progress.

give it a go big balls lol you'll be shittin like a horse all day.

[WestyVTR]

TBH a general programme of 4 sets of 10 reps incorperated 3 - 4 times per week would be enough, reat periods of arounf 30-60 seconds & all major muscle groups worked, he is still young & needs to grow. A good general diet is needed plenty of friut & veg. Hes not trying to be mr universe LMBO!

No need for all these split routines & additives. Also it is irrelivant what you do when you train..... to what you offer others...! just because you do it doent mean others should!

What is your metabolic rate? how did you get this figure? Is it really high or elevated for your age bracket? The BMI figure you talk of is useless also... forget it! Its not specific to you as an indivdual!

[bullit]

westy mr universe in the making.

[WestyVTR]

I'm sure he is!

:A:

If your training hard a whey protein suppliment is possibly a good idea. did we have suppliments 100's years ago!? so y do we need them now!?? If you see my point!

Mr Universe doesnt need it.... :thumbup: ;)

[Apz1]

^^Whey is not needed its just protien, Personally I only use it in the morning as i cant stomach enough solid food and I used it Post Workout for fast diegestion...

I am only 17, I did my research, found the most effiecient ways of training and applied it, and am seeing amazing results, weight training does not stunt your growth this is a myth.

[WestyVTR]

""Possibly a good adea"".... a whey protein suppliment contains more than just protein.... how do you know its not needed? do you know how hard he trains? how often? What types of training hes doin? and what his diet is exactly like?

Who ever said it stunted your growth? whoever told you that was lying thats for sure.

The amount of protein that is needed in a day is about a palm full. even if your lifting heavy weights nmore than that its not necessarly required!

Protein is made from amino acids.... these are the building blocks you seek!

I see amazing results too, but with my clients not just me.

its best to seek advise before you start as mindless taining is the worst.

[Apz1]

"he is still young & needs to grow"

sorry i thought you were saying here that it would stunt his growth.


yes whey does have a full amino pool, but so does chicken, beef, egg whites etc, so no it is not Necessary, the only time i would say it is benefical over solid protein is after workout for fast digestion along with high GI carbs.

[WestyVTR]

I was refering to alot of heavy weight training causing injury & damage to his tissues! He is young & still needs to "develop" - would have been more PC.

Think outside the box - protein doesnt mean, aminal! Nuts, seeds, pulses... some of the stongert ppl ive trained were & probly still are vegans!

""possibly a good idea"" as i have no idea what the specifics of his situation are.

I like they way you are keen to research beforee you start. somthing everyone should do IMO

[Apz1]

well nuts etc dont have a complete amino profile... soya protein, cottage cheese, quark etc is the must for vegans

[Apz1]

and vegetarians

[bullit]

arnie was swinging the weights out at 15.lol
protein drinks are a good idea when you cant eat at that time and straight after training.(very important) you could get your aminos from certain foods but as there are many, one type of food will produce more certain aminos than the other food. this is why i ate chicken, tuna, and eggs at the same time because each produced different bvs.
anyway people who post these questions do you have trainers in the gym who can help? or research, research. get some old school bodybuilding.
best advice is learn and read yourself cause your gonna be naive to what anyone says

Apz have you been reading mike mentzers, however you spell it?

[Apz1]

nope not read that