Dturbo engine

[samjessop]

Was just wondering if anyone had ever done this conversion? is it a direct fit onto the mounts etc

[m4tt274]

im guessing you mean you fancy fitting an Xud into a saxo.
If so, yes its been done, the shafts are a pain in the arse, its a custom job and not worth the hassle.
Its a pretty wank engine, its noisy, heavy, slow, inefficient vibrates its tits off and you end up with a smokey saxo that A. wont keep up with a VTS, B. wont happily rev past 4,000rpm and C. handles worse than a standard car due to the big lump of iron with a blower on the side of it you have bolted in.
IF your going to the effort of an 'engine swap' there are better ones to choose.

306dturbos will do like 48mpg though which is decent if you need a cheap run about.

[ThrushMotorsport]

Haha as much as I'd like a turbo derv of a saxo, far too much work though - there's a good few project threads where it's been done though.

[blackie_2k5]

Hdi is better

[tillygti6]

Hdi is much better.
Theres a couple of highly tuned 106s with the hdi motor in

[Rod1]

Why would you choose a diesel lump when even the lil vtr is quick and handles like a go kart?!

Get a 16v lump in it!

[blackie_2k5]

hdi's are the new weapon of choice for the 205 boys

[mechsman]

im guessing you mean you fancy fitting an Xud into a saxo.
If so, yes its been done, the shafts are a pain in the arse, its a custom job and not worth the hassle.
Its a pretty wank engine, its noisy, heavy, slow, inefficient vibrates its tits off and you end up with a smokey saxo that A. wont keep up with a VTS, B. wont happily rev past 4,000rpm and C. handles worse than a standard car due to the big lump of iron with a blower on the side of it you have bolted in.
IF your going to the effort of an 'engine swap' there are better ones to choose.

306dturbos will do like 48mpg though which is decent if you need a cheap run about.

Erm, depends which xu motor you are on about. The XU10 (gti6 lump) is too heavy for a 106 as it's cast iron. You also have to bung a shitload of money at it to get decent power. On the other hand the XUD9 (alloy block 306 dturbo motor) + gearbox is only 20kg heavier than the 1.5D (tud5) engine (same block as a gti/vts motor). The XUD9 can be made to produce over 200bhp at the wheels and rev to 6k plus. The torque band is pretty f*cking epic as well. It's a diesel, so even when it's off the blower it will pull fairly well. As engine swaps go, the work involved in putting an XUD9 motor in is relatively simple.

The HDi lump is more refined and can be made to produce more power. It is however an utter b1tch to wire up compared to the XUD9. It is also a fairly highly strung lump and tends to throw electronic hissy fits and go into limp mode at the slightest provocation.

A well tuned XUD9 motor in a 106/saxo would wipe the floor with a vts.

[blackie_2k5]

Pretty easy to get 200+ bhp from an hdi with fuck loads of torque and still get good mpg

[tillygti6]

I wouldnt fancy trying to splice the hdi loom into it. Id just throw the whole loom into it and job done.
The hdi has a stronger box too,

Whats the crack with bulkhead mods for the xu based swaps? Ive always wondered how much needs chopping

[blackie_2k5]

Not a great deal, it's a snug fit, but not as bad as ppl make out and as you say, use the full loom is easy way to do it

[tillygti6]

Hmm, have you seen one been done in the flesh? The downpipe is above the gear linkages on the hdi, looks like it would want a fair bit chopping?
200bhp isnt that easily found.but compared to scratch building a vt turbo its a piece of piss.
Shame all the diesel motors look bloody messy, would be a nice convertion but if you showed anyone who didnt know what it was it looks like a mess of pipes

[blackie_2k5]

Scooby tdo5 running high boost will see the 200mark with a good map and Intercooler and the right injectors

Lad round my way made 174 on a tdo4 and a 150 generic map running high boost, he doing td05 set up and proper map now I think

Not seen one done in flesh in a Saxo, seen a dturbo in a 106 and read a few projects

Exhaust is hardest bit, nothing stopping you re routing it round the front though

[mechsman]

Pretty easy to get 200+ bhp from an hdi with fuck loads of torque and still get good mpg

As long as the hp pump can keep up. If it drops pressure the hdi will go into limp mode. The XUD9 is purely mechanical like the 1.5D.

I wouldnt fancy trying to splice the hdi loom into it. Id just throw the whole loom into it and job done.
The hdi has a stronger box too,

Whats the crack with bulkhead mods for the xu based swaps? Ive always wondered how much needs chopping

I considered the hdi for my swap. Took 1 look at the wiring loom and dumped that idea straight away. The hdi box is no stronger or weaker than the XUD box. The hdi box does have a longer final drive however, which drops the rpm for a given speed by 500 compared to the XUD box. The HDi box can be put on the XUD9 lump with a swap of the release bearing holder to the XUD9 type.

Bulkhead hasn't needed touching so far for my swap. You will need an inlet manifold to suit a front mount IC, as the standard top mount IC manifold clouts the brake servo in a 106. I have pretty much figured out that the standard turbo mounting will mean that the turbo is right up against the bulkhead. It could probably be made to clear the standard turbo with a judicious clout with a 10lb sledge hammer to the bulkhead. However, I plan on bringing the exhaust from the manifold around to above the gearbox and mounting the turbo(s) there, as it makes access for tuning/swapping etc much easier. The battery will be relocated to the boot.

For XU10 fitment, it's a different ball game.

[tillygti6]

The fuel pump needs replacing, for something more substsntial often the bmw one is used, and yea the injectors need fettling. Infact the stock injector can do neigh on 200 with amg nozzles.
A custom downpipe would likely save any bulkhead work.
Its a project i quite fancy myself really.

[blackie_2k5]

Pump of course :)

[m4tt274]

Ive seen a couple people with dturbos re route the turbo above the gearbox and one run a bumper exit exhaust that worked pretty well space wise.

[Aly]

im guessing you mean you fancy fitting an Xud into a saxo.
If so, yes its been done, the shafts are a pain in the arse, its a custom job and not worth the hassle.
Its a pretty wank engine, its noisy, heavy, slow, inefficient vibrates its tits off and you end up with a smokey saxo that A. wont keep up with a VTS, B. wont happily rev past 4,000rpm and C. handles worse than a standard car due to the big lump of iron with a blower on the side of it you have bolted in.
IF your going to the effort of an 'engine swap' there are better ones to choose.

306dturbos will do like 48mpg though which is decent if you need a cheap run about.

Not true,
Easily tuneable to over 200bhp and go well,
I'm thinking of doing one in my 106 later this year.

jammapic's hybrid turbo GT25 DTurbo Diesel XUD Peugeot 306 - YouTube

To the Op don't be put off by the conversion I've seen many done.

[m4tt274]

Theres always examples of 'ones that have' but generally most normal dturbos that are in a standard guise with their stock pump wound up and boost messed with wont out pace a VTR.
I have a friend running one on a td04 from an impreza, xzantia manifold, transit pump and so on and it seems to forever break and it runs about 170bhp.

Ok, its not bad, but, imo if you were going to go to the effort of an engine swap there would be better engines to use. As Blackie has said, the hdi i would have thought would be better. Peugeot themselves replaced the xud with the HDi. The 2.0 16v hdi from C4 VTS for example would be brilliant, they will produce a sound 190bhp just on a remap.

Also, i have to wonder, how much, start to finish would a diesel build cost? custom shafts, mounts, exhaust and then the actual components you would need in the first place like box, engine, ancillaries.

[mechsman]

^ yes, because most swaps have been tried at one point or another. There's rarely anything truely "unique" out there nowadays. When you say transit pump, was that the whole pump or just the 11mm head? Transit levers and gov? Gov modded or not? There is a whole world of little nuances that needs to be understood to successfully tune an XUD9 pump and keep it reliable. JammaPics 306 made 209.9bhp at the wheels on a 9mm pump with some very choice mods and very careful turbo selection and engineering.

The hdi, in theory, is a "better" engine. Wiring it is a bitch, and in real life swapping the XUD in and keeping it running is a whole lot easier. HDi's also tend to have more "issues" where stuff plays up for some random reason and makes the whole lot have an electronic hissy fit.

Another major advantage to the XUD (with a bosch pump on), you can run it on straight veg oil :-D.

Cost wise, it's not that bad I don't think. I effectively got my XUD engine and box almost for free by buying a mot failure 306, stripping it and selling the bits I didn't need. The custom shafts i have yet to determine a need for, as my setup uses the standard 106 engine mounts and a custom bracket (rather than custom engine mount). As a result I believe that 205XAD shafts will fit, 99.9% certain on the nearside (not tried the offside one in the bracket yet but it looks about right). If you buy a donor 306 you can chop the engine mount out of that an weld it into the 106 if you want to do it that way. As I say though, I haven't had to. The secret is the little bridge piece on the gearbox mount that kicks the whole engine/box combo to the left by about 10/15mm compared to doing it with the 306 mount welded in method. I hope this difference will negate the need for custom shafts.

[blackie_2k5]

Just buy yourself a 206 hdi for spares, one on here with beam failure now

Gut the whole car and use bits, have to source another box unless you want to go hydraulic clutch

And tbf.. Even a dturbo with pump and boost up should outpace a standard vts easily

That's why everyone wants them now

[tillygti6]

My missus hdi is faster than my gti6.....
And does double the mpg.

[MartinObviously]

My missus hdi is faster than my gti6.....
And does double the mpg.

My mate has a 306 XSi that's faster than a GTI-6 ;)

[mechsman]

Just buy yourself a 206 hdi for spares, one on here with beam failure now

Gut the whole car and use bits, have to source another box unless you want to go hydraulic clutch

And tbf.. Even a dturbo with pump and boost up should outpace a standard vts easily

That's why everyone wants them now

Or get a dead 306 and worry about swapping to an hdi gearbox later. I know a hdi box can be used on an XUD9 lump by swapping the bearing holder arm. Not sure about putting the dturbo box arm into an hdi box to use on an hdi lump though.

One thing I am keeping an eye out for is the super long hdi eco box (green i in the HDi logo). A well tuned XUD would probably have enough torque to make the most of top gear, and get there reasonably fast. Super long time between changes = relentless acceleration ;-)

[tillygti6]

You can convert from hydro of the 206 to cable but sourcing the bits from pug/cit is always a pain.

Martinobviously. 8v or 16v xsi?

[MartinObviously]

You can convert from hydro of the 206 to cable but sourcing the bits from pug/cit is always a pain.

Martinobviously. 8v or 16v xsi?

16V, GTI-6 exhaust and inlet.

It's not had a map either.

We've had it bounce off the limiter in 5th at 145mph and it will outpace a Mini cooper S. with 170HP. :homme:

[Aly]

16V, GTI-6 exhaust and inlet.

It's not had a map either.

We've had it bounce off the limiter in 5th at 145mph and it will outpace a Mini cooper S. with 170HP. :homme:

I can believe that mine is that and it's slow as fuck haha

[MartinObviously]

I can believe that mine is that and it's slow as fuck haha

It shouldn't be.

[BONNARSKI]

How do people make out that the XUD conversion is a hard job?

I've done it and i'll tell you what, it's not as bad as boys make out.

As for the drive shafts, if you do your home work there is a pair of standard Peugeot drive shafts out there that will fit no problems. I should know, i've done it lol.
http://i293.photobucket.com/albums/mm50/BONNARSKI/DSC00602_zpsddb66c31.jpg

[BONNARSKI]

Forgot to say this was the first phase of the conversion, basically just to get it moving under it's own steam.

It's now got a better radiator and boost pipe setup and afew other tweeks.

Please excuse the height of the front end, it's in MOT spec at the moment lol

[Gandi699]

Create a build thread for that mate looks good!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[mechsman]

How do people make out that the XUD conversion is a hard job?

I've done it and i'll tell you what, it's not as bad as boys make out.

As for the drive shafts, if you do your home work there is a pair of standard Peugeot drive shafts out there that will fit no problems. I should know, i've done it lol.
http://i293.photobucket.com/albums/mm50/BONNARSKI/DSC00602_zpsddb66c31.jpg

Looks sweet that! 205 xad shafts as a straight fit? both sides? Oh n yeah build thread please! Did you have to chop much out of the nearside chassis rail btw?

[MartinObviously]

It's harder to fit a XUD than it is to turbo a TUD.

Don't use the MOT as an excuse for that ride height, I know for a FACT that if you lower that, you will smash the sump. You'll be lucky to have 2 inches of clearance with standard springs.

No danger to sump if you turbo the TUD ;) It takes a fair bit of abuse. 130hp, 190ft.lb and 4500 miles of hard driving.


Pretty sure I've seen that Yellow xud 106 before! many months ago...

[saxo_Josh]

VTS conversion all the way!

[Gandi699]

VTS conversion all the way!

erm why?

[MartinObviously]

erm why?

Because VTS conversion has half the torque of course.

[saxo_Josh]

Been done in a 106

Progress here:

http://www.pug306.net/forum/showthread.php/113917-106-XUD9-Conversion-Project

[BONNARSKI]

It's harder to fit a XUD than it is to turbo a TUD.

Don't use the MOT as an excuse for that ride height, I know for a FACT that if you lower that, you will smash the sump. You'll be lucky to have 2 inches of clearance with standard springs.

No danger to sump if you turbo the TUD ;) It takes a fair bit of abuse. 130hp, 190ft.lb and 4500 miles of hard driving.


Pretty sure I've seen that Yellow xud 106 before! many months ago...

Only seeing this now, i can assure you that there will be no problems with the sump being too low, i made damn sure of that. Over here we have a better chance of passing mot with a standard height car rather than a lowered one. You really think i'd go to all the trouble of fitting the engine only to raise the car up to that stupid height? Maybe thats the way you'd do it but thats not my style. The front will be down to match the height the rear is in the pic, the rear is going up to before you come out with anymore silly ideas lol. You probably did see this 106 before, it's been about for afew years now, still the only one in Ireland afaik but i doubt that myself lol

[BONNARSKI]

Forgot to ask you MartinObviously, how do you know for a FACT that my car will not work when lowered? You ever even seen my car in the flesh? Lol

[MartinObviously]

I don't need to see your car, if you're using a modified XU engine mount. because there's only one way you can do it.

Anyway, I can dent a standard TU sump, lowered only 50mm. that's with GroupN B8 and eibach springs, which are pretty stiff.

XUD conversions, the sump sits lower than a TU sump (even though it sits at an angle, the x height is still higher). So the chances of the sump getting damaged are higher.

Besides, It'll handle better with a higher ride height and decent springs. going too low with stiff springs reduces tyre contact, unless you're on perfectly smooth tarmac.

Lowering the front to the same as the rear will wipe out your front splitter as well. :y:

I hope you're changing the wheels, because the standard tyre size and all that torque will leave you with no traction and you'll find it very difficult to brake hard without locking up (because you'll be going faster).


I'll be happy to answer any more questions you have.

[monka]

you got a build thread for the tud turbo martin?

also, anyone ever looked at supercharging a tud? surely a hell of a lot easier

[mechsman]

supercharged tud would probably = clutch rape.com.

[monka]

supercharged tud would probably = clutch rape.com.

how come? surely the power being more linear should be better for the clutch?

never mind the clutch though, any reason why it shouldn't be feasible? damn site easier than a turbo i'd have thought

[MartinObviously]

you got a build thread for the tud turbo martin?

also, anyone ever looked at supercharging a tud? surely a hell of a lot easier

turbo is cheaper. I've sunk a massive £500 into mine so far.

There's no build thread, it's a secret ;) as is my S1 Rallye restoration.

torque is the main problem, a lot of paddle clutches can't cope with the torque. we're talking 200ft.lb with a "pikey" setup on standard internals . Most of the Helix paddles are only rated to 170ft.lb ish. Great for petrols running ITB's.

I've just got a standard GTi clutch and flywheel. It really wasn't up to much at all, so since my car is a daily all the gear is off it just now. I don't want to blow it up yet either :P

A supercharger would bring the boost right down near the 2000rpm mark, more likely to slip there I would have thought.

TUD5 is petrol engine derived, so being an indirect injection it makes its power high up, so a turbo is more suited than a charger. as a NAD it produces peak hp at 5000-5250 rpm and torque between 1600 and 2000rpm (individual engines vary)

Not to say you couldn't set up a charger to boost in the same place as a turbo. :y: I think that would make it dire down in the low rev range though.

[monka]

ok, you on standard internals? A 'budget' supercharger set up shouldn't cost too much, don't know about space but loads of Mercedes chargers about for the 150 mark, brackets/pulleys need to be sorted, but for diy job, making a few brackets is easier than making a new manifold and downpipe. Just an idea though

[axsaxoman]

turbo is cheaper. I've sunk a massive £500 into mine so far.

There's no build thread, it's a secret ;) as is my S1 Rallye restoration.

torque is the main problem, a lot of paddle clutches can't cope with the torque. we're talking 200ft.lb with a "pikey" setup on standard internals . Most of the Helix paddles are only rated to 170ft.lb ish. Great for petrols running ITB's.

I've just got a standard GTi clutch and flywheel. It really wasn't up to much at all, so since my car is a daily all the gear is off it just now. I don't want to blow it up yet either :P

A supercharger would bring the boost right down near the 2000rpm mark, more likely to slip there I would have thought.

TUD5 is petrol engine derived, so being an indirect injection it makes its power high up, so a turbo is more suited than a charger. as a NAD it produces peak hp at 5000-5250 rpm and torque between 1600 and 2000rpm (individual engines vary)

Not to say you couldn't set up a charger to boost in the same place as a turbo. :y: I think that would make it dire down in the low rev range though.
no unless you use an eaton type charger which are very inefficient - and as they are positve displacment type unit can give lots of boost low down ,but it drops off higher up and makes twice the heat of a rotrex
a Rorex type unit --centrifical type --the boost climbs directly proportional to engine rpm ,is a lot easier on transmission and you drive like a N/A engined car ,only one with twice the size of engine .
for ulitmate bhp on dyno --yes a turbo can make more ,but for drivability a s/c will be easier --no sudden spool up like you get with turbo + lots of transmission killing wheel spin.
If you want lots of boost lower down rpm ,then limit engine rpm and gear up charger
we did a c2 rally car conversion and thats what he wanted --end result 270@wheels @6500rpm and serious boost from 3k
its all about what you going to use car for
if its for drag then go turbo
if its to drive on a twsity road --then s/c every time
and yes its simpler to fit s/c than turbo

as fro clutchs --the problem with turbos is that they do make large torque at low rpm ,where it is usless -- the s/c will give you same 200+ but at higher rpm ,so making clutch choice easier and less wheelspin at lower rpms --either way yuo want an lsd for those sort of powers anyway

sorry martin but you are talking rubbish --so had to make this post -if you had 200lbsft of torque std clutch would explode in less than a week +would slip on the dyno when mapping it

anything above 6psi on s/c and std clutch will slip--if your doesn,t then you ain,t got the power you think you have simple as that

[MartinObviously]

I don't think you've read my post properly. Nothing you've put there is news to me.

Rotrex is awkward to fit to the 1.5d, it would require a ridiculously long belt or relocating the alternator because of the fuel pump. So no it wouldn't be simpler to fit a sc.

If you think there's a way to make it fit in there, let me know and I'll buy one lol because Ideally that's what I've been wanting to fit.


Onto my 200lb.ft comment, that came from when Sam had a turbo on his 1.5d with a paddle clutch. As you can see in my previous post, I made that comment whilst on the topic of PADDLE clutches, not standard. :P

I said the standard clutch and flywheel "wasn't up to much at all" on a turbo diesel. it was slipping with small amounts of boost (I was using a GT15). I know it needs a better clutch, so everything is back to standard.


Boost for a diesel is NOT the same as boosting a petrol.

With a mechanical pump diesel, boost only builds if you add fuel. You can run no wastegate if you wanted to and not risk damaging the engine. Mechanical pumps only add fuel with throttle and revs, so if you put your foot down (WOT) boost will only build as fast as the pump puts fuel in. fuel added is directly proportional to revs (unless you have a boost compensator)


In this video, is Sam and his 1.5dt he had, it was 130hp and 190ft.lb on the dyno with a slipping paddle clutch. it's running a buggered GT15 turbo with no wastegate, no intercooler, no oil cooler and a 1.9DTurbo Bosch 9mm VE. The compressor map for a GT15 is ideal for the 1.5d, it covers almost the whole rev range from 1500 right up to 5000rpm.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m0mGSGX-C-4

The car didn't last long, because on his first run he seized the engine due to lack of oil, the car was run 4500 miles of hard driving before the bottom end gave up.

[axsaxoman]

you are correct
I stand corrected--didnt see its diesel --hope its an iron block one 1587cc
yes turbo for a diesel -but why ??
its crappy engine as diesels go --never designed to be boosted --the fact that citoren didnt, do it tels me all i need to know

to the pther man forget the merc s/c unit --and what ever you do fit a turb otype pump with boost diagrapm on the top --that should correct fro boost with no messing about --1.9 zx diesel pump wil do in fact the kkktubo from oen of them as well --you can adjsut boost level very easily on them

[MartinObviously]

you are correct
I stand corrected--didnt see its diesel --hope its an iron block one 1587cc
yes turbo for a diesel -but why ??
its crappy engine as diesels go --never designed to be boosted --the fact that citoren didnt, do it tels me all i need to know

to the pther man forget the merc s/c unit --and what ever you do fit a turb otype pump with boost diagrapm on the top --that should correct fro boost with no messing about --1.9 zx diesel pump wil do in fact the kkktubo from oen of them as well --you can adjsut boost level very easily on them


Nar it's a good engine, it produces its power high up in the rpms. It's an Indirect Injection High Speed Diesel. :y:

It's tough and the GT15 is ideal.

Bosch 9mm VE fits the standard 8mm NAD pump bracket if you modify the pump bracket mounting holes and make them slots. OR ('ve yet to try this) get the adjustable hub and pulley from the NAD pump and make it fit the 9mm VE. They're both VE and the bodies look the same so it should go.


Conspiracy time, I think the 1.5d was never turbo'd because it would embarrass other models (VTR and XS etc). Certainly the 200mm clutch and fly can take 95hp from a 1.5dt (so some guy in Portugal claims) and at that point his Saxo was doing under 16 second 1/4 mile. I'll go see if I can find his YouTube Channel.

[monka]

and embarrass the 306 diesel.

[axsaxoman]

and there is a man in holland who maintains he has 400bhp and sues a pressed steel cover clutch --so i would be too keen to believe that --if it is making 95 bhp @4k that like making 155 @6k --so don,t think std unit will hold that -- well not for long

think you would need osmething a bit better or at least machine a bigger clamping lip on flywheel -if you want to use std

[MartinObviously]

and there is a man in holland who maintains he has 400bhp and sues a pressed steel cover clutch --so i would be too keen to believe that --if it is making 95 bhp @4k that like making 155 @6k --so don,t think std unit will hold that -- well not for long

think you would need osmething a bit better or at least machine a bigger clamping lip on flywheel -if you want to use std

I'm not sure what you mean by that? :panic:

Found his channel, here's one of many videos

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WWNIl4i4tSQ

[axsaxoman]

the clutch required to work without slipping is final proof of bhp +torque --so man in holland is just lying or deluded as no pressed steel cover can clamp enough for 400bhp of a turbo
ask any clutch maker the question and you will get same answer

[MartinObviously]

the clutch required to work without slipping is final proof of bhp +torque --so man in holland is just lying or deluded as no pressed steel cover can clamp enough for 400bhp of a turbo
ask any clutch maker the question and you will get same answer

Ahh right, yeah that's what I thought you were getting at. I'm not an expert on clutches, only have a basic idea of how they work :)