training advise please

[OMGASAXO]

my past routine has been target 2 muscle groups 3 times each week; chest/triceps, back/biceps and legs/shoulders. From this I noticed a gain in muscle and strength but never really had the definition I wanted. I've recently been slacking and had a massive 8-9 month break from the gym where I have noticed I've lost strength and muscle.

I've started the gym again and been going about 2 weeks, with the 2 muscles 3 times a week routine. I've lost an awful lot of strength and can't lift as much as I could 8-9 months ago.
I'm just unsure weather to change my workout to a full body workout 3 times a week? with some questions.
My current goals are gain muscle size/definition and strength. I would also like to burn abit of fat which I believe would be a separate goal.

-If I'm doing a full body workout 3 times a week will my muscles be getting enough time to recover? how many days should I leave it between workouts? Is 1 rest day enough?

I've been looking on the internet and finding many different opinions on full body workouts VS split workouts and I guess the only way to find out is try it my self?
Thanks,

[Gashman]

If I was you I would split into back/triceps, chest/biceps, shoulders/legs. If try and keep it fairly compound heavy, with some isolation thrown in!

[McGuire86]

Quoted for truth ;

' HOW TO GROW

Most people are frustrated with their lack of progress in bodybuilding. Here's a brief outline of my options/recommendations for how best to succeed.


TRAINING
------------
The best training method is dual-factor training. However, this is complicated, and in general for people with less than 2-3 years lifting experience who can't yet deadlift over twice their bodyweight, this is overkill. HUGE gains can be made on a simple single-factor low volume routine with progressive resistance for a long period of time for most people, without the need for dual-factor. Since the vast majority of people are in a chronically overtrained state, a brief deload period is required, followed by a two-day split intense training routine, such as this:

Mon
----
Flat Bench Press 2 x 8
Parallel Barbell Rows 2 x 8
Weighted Chins 2 x 8
Standing Military Press 2 x 8

Thurs
------
Back Squats ATF 2 x 8
Stiff-Legged Deadlifts 2 x 8
Calf raise 2 x 10
Weighted ab crunch (hold dumbell on your chest) 2 x 10

These don't include warm-ups, of which you should do a few progressive sets that don't tire you out, but instead warm you up and get your CNS stimulated. Remember to stretch also. The exercise order and reps can be tweaked of course, but do NOT add in a bunch of isolation exercises. Isolation work is great for a 250lbs+ bodybuilder looking to bring up a weak body part, but for the average circa 200lbs lifter who wants to get huge, you don't need to "tone" your biceps with endless curls. You need serious exercises that pack on serious mass... that is compound work like deads and squats - so do NOT swap out squats for leg press or similar. And do NOT add extra volume, or do any "burn-out" sets to feel a pump. Feeling like you've worked a muscle is a false sense of progress. ALL that matters is that you're keeping form strict with full ROM and are adding weight to the bar each week.

Which brings me to the key to the success of this routine - progressive resistance. That is, continually adding small amounts of weight each week. To get bigger, you need to get stronger. Adding small weights each week add up. Adding 1-2kg/week to your squat won't seem to make much difference on a week-to-week basis, but over the course of a year, that's an extra 50-100kg (along with the extra mass to match). That's immense.

Start off with weights that are easy to hit the rep ranges, and load up from there. Be extremely conservative. Your first few weeks on this routine should be relatively easy. The slower you load, the longer you'll be able to load for.

Yes, you will plateau eventually. That is a given. It may be after 4 weeks, or it may be after 4 months+. As SOON as you plateau, you need to change things up. If something doesn't work from one session to the next, it will NOT suddenly start working in another week/month/year's time (with the exception of it just being a one-off bad workout). You can get past a plateau in many ways. Assuming diet is good, a brief deload period, followed by a simple change to the program (such as changing the rep range and starting off light again before loading back up) is the next step. If this doesn't work, then an overhaul of the exercises is the next step. The main thing is: do NOT stick with something that isn't working today. '

[Gashman]

That article was in flex not too long ago, interesting read

[Gashman]

Well a very similar article

[McGuire86]

Was posted by a bodybuilder on a respectable bodybuilding forum 8 years ago..

[Gashman]

Good for him, was also a very similar article in flex not long ago.

You must be in unbelievable shape mr McGuire, you seem to know it all

[McGuire86]

Not good for him, good for the hundreds of people he's probably helped. Jesus all I said is where I read it lol

Since when did I claim to know everything ? I know a fair bit as I've been training for around 8 years on and off.
I know the basics pretty damn well which is why it's easy to answer threads on here as the majority of questions are first day stuff.
But compared to a professional I doubt I know fuck all compared to him.

You seem to have an answer for most questions aswell, I bet you're in 'unbelievable' shape ?

[matt_vtr_15a]

This section is wearing thin on me...

You do seem to have a massive problem recently mcguire.. just seem dismissive with most people nowadays

[Gashman]

Just notice on most of your posts you come across like you think you know it all.

I've only really gone for it for the last 8 months, I'd say that now I am in unbelievable shape compared to then, started around 52kg and weighed in tonight at 68kg, have noticed huge gains in size and strength over these last months. Been the result of hardwork, consistency and dedication.

Also a shitload of homework and research into the sport

[McGuire86]

Im sorry but how does giving advice make me a know it all. If people dont like what i have to say then dont take any of it on board makes no difference to me. All im doing is trying to help people but as you both know everything then atleast make a counter argument instead of moaning lol.

[matt_vtr_15a]

Im sorry but how does giving advice make me a know it all. If people dont like what i have to say then dont take any of it on board makes no difference to me. All im doing is trying to help people but as you both know everything then atleast make a counter argument instead of moaning lol.

LOL?

Find one post were I have disagreed with you? Even recently with that training programme I put up which you stated was too high volume i took your opinion on board and amended it slightly to reduce the volume.

Your one of the most helpful and knowledgeable persons on the site in this section and have never had an issue with you.

I definately don't know everything, not even close.. but what i research and put into practice I will use to try and help others, I could understand if we had a few disagreements but I don't re-collect them.

In situations where you have given advice and I havn't taken it on board (such as pro-hormones) I never disagreed with you, just personal choice.. I know you have done a lot of research in this area.

I'm not looking to argue, just seems to be a bit of clashing going on in this section at the moment which is dead at the best of times so would rather we all just got on... it would definately benefit some of the new guys with the principles etc.

[McGuire86]

It was more directed towards gash. I just replied to you as you said i have a massive problem recently yet all im doing is giving my opinions on subjects i know abit about.

All i did here was quote a useful article and said when it was posted and then i get called a know it all. I rarely post here now as its just frustration most of the time but i still reply to the frequent pms i get. Wont be long till i stop all together.

[Giraffe]

It was more directed towards gash. I just replied to you as you said i have a massive problem recently yet all im doing is giving my opinions on subjects i know abit about.

All i did here was quote a useful article and said when it was posted and then i get called a know it all. I rarely post here now as its just frustration most of the time but i still reply to the frequent pms i get. Wont be long till i stop all together.

I'm very surprised you haven't already.

[McGuire86]

I'm very surprised you haven't already.

Im just inclined to try and help people on stuff im passionate about but sometimes i dont see why i bother lol

[Brettles1986]

I'm very surprised you haven't already.

Wow where have you been?

[matt_vtr_15a]

It was more directed towards gash. I just replied to you as you said i have a massive problem recently yet all im doing is giving my opinions on subjects i know abit about.

All i did here was quote a useful article and said when it was posted and then i get called a know it all. I rarely post here now as its just frustration most of the time but i still reply to the frequent pms i get. Wont be long till i stop all together.

Was mainly based on that sole reply to gash, but if it's something that has built up understandable.

[Gashman]

I just think every time I have made a comment or offered advise McGuire has got on his high horse and made remarks against what I am saying

[McGuire86]

I just think every time I have made a comment or offered advise McGuire has got on his high horse and made remarks against what I am saying

Show examples of 'remarks' I've made directly towards you. And elaborate what you mean about getting on my high horse.

[Gashman]

I really can't be arsed

[McGuire86]

I really can't be arsed

So you're chatting shite then ?

[weve33]

Interesting read McGuire cheers

[Gashman]

If I was chatting shit I wouldn't have bothered would I, think about it

[Gashman]

Read the thread, opinions on post workout shake, there's a good indication of when you came across a twat.

Noticed you shut the fuck up when you saw I had a half decent diet

[Giraffe]

Read the thread, opinions on post workout shake, there's a good indication of when you came across a twat.

Noticed you shut the fuck up when you saw I had a half decent diet

Lol.

He didn't come across as a twat, he just said do what you want, as you were doing anyway. He puts in a lot of time and effort and nobody listens to him anyway, then you and that ignorant arsehole Carl decided to be dickheads, from what I saw. Comical that you're even taking advice from Carl anyway though.

[Gashman]

Haha take your tongue out of his arsehole giraffe son.

I take advice from everyone, and compare this with my own experiences. if you notice I actually state all feedback is appreciated!

I'm not debating whether or not he puts the time in and helps people, I'm not doubting that. I am saying he comes across as a know it all twat on occasions! People could say the same for me, it's called opinion son

And like arseholes, everyone has one!

[McGuire86]

I could of picked apart that diet but you would of shrugged off advice as you have done before. The only twat here is you, all 68kg of you Lol

[Giraffe]

Haha take your tongue out of his arsehole giraffe son.

I take advice from everyone, and compare this with my own experiences. if you notice I actually state all feedback is appreciated!

I'm not debating whether or not he puts the time in and helps people, I'm not doubting that. I am saying he comes across as a know it all twat on occasions! People could say the same for me, it's called opinion son

And like arseholes, everyone has one!

Now you're trying to be a patronising arsehole be saying shit like "son". It's no wonder this section dies a death when you've got people who have been training 8 months, already taking prohormones, think their average diet is actually good, listen to ridiculous advice and disregard good advice and think that going from 9 stone to 10 stone is an achievement in their noob yea... o wait, not even a year, are the ones who post the most frequently.

My tongue isn't in his arsehole, I'm just speaking how I find. For him to put the time in trying to give you advice and seemingly disregard it, then go ahead making sarcy comments must be frustrating for him. As for him coming across a know it all twat... Well, he knows infinitely more than most do in this section and a lot of people on here actually agree with what he says, so perhaps you feel threatened by his "know it all attitude" because you know you're a noob must know jack shit compared to him? Speculation anyway.

Anyway, go back to lifting, son. You're apparently better at that than you are taking advice.

[Gashman]

Obviously your reading skills are good, I have been in and out the gym for years. My first membership in a gym started around 12-13 years ago.

As stated only seriously gone for it bodybuilding wise 8 months, as previous efforts have always been more fitness orientated due to other sport commitments.

I'm open to advise, ill always research advise and gauge my own opinion... Is that not what you would do? Or would you just follow advice because you've been told it?

[Gashman]

I could of picked apart that diet but you would of shrugged off advice as you have done before. The only twat here is you, all 68kg of you Lol

I hoped you would off in all honesty, always looking for new tips with regards to diet!

[McGuire86]

I hoped you would off in all honesty, always looking for new tips with regards to diet!

Why the fuck would i consider giving you any advice/feedback again ?

[Gashman]

To be honest I really couldn't give a toss if you do or don't

I thought the whole idea of any forum was to share knowledge and opinions. Not just be told I have to do it one way and if I oppose the information I am shrugging it off...

[Giraffe]

To be honest I really couldn't give a toss if you do or don't

I thought the whole idea of any forum was to share knowledge and opinions. Not just be told I have to do it one way and if I oppose the information I am shrugging it off...

I dunno what Carl looks like, but I wouldn't really give his advice much credit based on what I know of him already, certainly not more than McGuire's anyway.
Again, my tongue isn't in his arse, but whatever McGuire has done has obviously worked, so I'd say his advice is a safe bet regardless, especially as he has done it all as a natty. You probably haven't seen pictures of him though, so weren't to know this.

[Gashman]

I'm open to advice, ill always research anyadvice and gauge my own opinion... Is that not what you would do? Or would you just follow advice because you've been told it?

Miss this post giraffe?

And no I haven't seen pictures of McGuire,

Have both you guys missed the posts where I state I appreciate all feedback?

[Giraffe]

Miss this post giraffe?

And no I haven't seen pictures of McGuire,

Have both you guys missed the posts where I state I appreciate all feedback?

What you say and what you do are seemingly two different things...

All I know is that someone gave you a well substantiated opinion on why dextrose was useless, even from his own experience and one person told you he used it and it was good, with no supporting reason... and you took the second bit of advice. That doesn't make sense to me.

[McGuire86]

I'm just wasting my time with you therefore i wont try and offer any advice to you in the future. Good luck with your training big man.

[Gashman]

I've read many articles explaining both pros and cons on dextrose and know mates who I have also tried it that's why I took the plunge with it.... And I actually feel I am benefitting from this...

[Gashman]

Every big man started somewhere McGuire mate

[Gashman]

If I was doing it all wrong would I not have experienced any gains?

[Giraffe]

If I was doing it all wrong would I not have experienced any gains?

You're lifting and getting enough food in you and I assume resting enough. That's going to produce gains, especially with "help". Especially at your size as well. I think this argument is done anyway, don't think anyone has achieved anything really. Just crack on doing what you're doing and McGuire will crack on doing what he's doing.

[LWS_71]

Well if you take pro-hormones, eat some food and regualrly lift some weight then anyone would put on weight. Doesn't mean you are making 'good' gains.

Obviously I have no idea on your height/body composition, but taking pro-hormones at your weight is a it ridiculous IMO. It's your body though, so feel free to ruin it as you wish.

[Gashman]

Can I ask why you think it is ridiculous at my weight?

[Giraffe]

Can I ask why you think it is ridiculous at my weight?

How tall are you?

[Gashman]

I'm am 5" 6

[Giraffe]

So not the tallest then. Still, I can't imagine that after only 8 months of proper training (dunno how long before you started using pro hormone) that you would have reached your potential naturally. If you've gone from 56kg to 68kg (think that's what you said?) then you're probably still quite small but obviously a lot of room to grow still, so shouldn't really be struggling to grow naturally.

I dunno, I'm a great believer of just being natural, just because if you can't do it naturally then you're probably not meant to do it. Like, is that shit really meant to be in your body? Probably not... But hey, I've never done bodybuilding stuff, never looked in to it and never will, so admittedly I don't know much. Still, think you could have made gains without it.

[Gashman]

No I'm definitely not the tallest, I have only ran 1 pro hormone cycle.

I got to 60kg and seemed to hit a wall. Trained hard and ate a huge amount but couldn't get any bigger, not matter what I tried training, diet or supplement wise weight gains wouldn't come.

That's why I started to research ph cycles, I have mates who had good results with then previous, and also mates using injectables.

I didn't wanna go down the injectables route so thought id try pro hormones.

Arnie was the best body ever and he had help

[Giraffe]

No I'm definitely not the tallest, I have only ran 1 pro hormone cycle.

I got to 60kg and seemed to hit a wall. Trained hard and ate a huge amount but couldn't get any bigger, not matter what I tried training, diet or supplement wise weight gains wouldn't come.

That's why I started to research ph cycles, I have mates who had good results with then previous, and also mates using injectables.

I didn't wanna go down the injectables route so thought id try pro hormones.

Arnie was the best body ever and he had help

Yeah but he's elite isn't he, and at the very pinnacle. You're not.
To be honest, you mentioned everything but REST there, so I'd say that was probably your downfall. You can't expect to stress your body out with training and making it digest all this food and all these supplements etc if you're not also taking the time to de-stress and relax and rest. I also don't know what training hard is to you, it's all guess work, I don't know you or what you do so can't really comment. What I do know is that you shouldn't really need them at your size/stage of training yet... Sure they'll always help, but I'd be wary.

[b0t13]

also a sidenote:

after 8 months its perfectly fine to take PH's, physically anyway(morally,politically,tree-hugger ways may be another issue)

if you know what your taking, know how to train and know what to eat, the PH/AAS will only boost your efforts that doing naturally cant (either speed up growth or overall size if at natty limit)

[Giraffe]

also a sidenote:

after 8 months its perfectly fine to take PH's, physically anyway(morally,politically,tree-hugger ways may be another issue)

if you know what your taking, know how to train and know what to eat, the PH/AAS will only boost your efforts that doing naturally cant (either speed up growth or overall size if at natty limit)

You could do it from day 1 if you were going to get everything perfect from day 1, but don't you think you'd be better off finding out what works best for you over a few years before you go down that route?

[McGuire86]

It's always better to max out or get a very good base of your potential limits before steroids IMO but everyone is different to what they want out of life.

Btw pro hormones are steroids just a fancy name

[b0t13]

yea exactly, theres nothing to stop you taking them for results,

but i agree learning the fundamentals first is the 'best' way and having some base beforehand will give much better results in the long term as learning how to do stuff naturally means youll train better imo,

but if u wonna get hench quick brap, they are needed!

[L33h]

imo you're probably not getting much heavier cos you're burning fat and increasing muscle. After 6 month of training i had actually lost 7kg and was only just starting to put it back on.

[L33h]

Also theres too much testosterone in this thread lads. everyone should get along

:hug::hug::hug::hug::hug::hug:

[Carlvtr88]

I tell you one thing I don't really listen to anything people tell me. Not out of ignorance, I just think many people are different.

I take it " on board " but I don't follow it unless is something that is common knowledge i.e stretch before workout or something obvious like that.

In terms of exercise regime, lately i've been doing full body 3 - 4 times a week with slightly more focused areas.

So Monday I may focus more on arms, chest, shoulders for example.

Then Wednesday do some legs back, lats etc., but still do some upper body aswell.

Basically, so on and so fourth how i see fit. I'm not planning on entering comps, but put it this way, with my full body routine I've burned a shitload of fats off my body and bulked up so for me, it seems to be working.

I wouldn't discount any training method I'd just say do what works for you.