New engine build ideas.

[AzzAW93]

Right im planning on building an engine over the next year or two for my speed event 106, So far i have a few ideas but when i settle on one another always pops up.

so the goal is 170bhp minimum and naturally aspirated.
here are my 4 main ideas in price and length of build order.

idea 1.
gti/vts engine, 708's or equivalents, basic head work, at power bodies, omex 600 ecu and decent exhaust system.

idea 2.
gti/vts engine, forged wossner pistons, forged con rods, race bearings, ARP bolts, basic head work, 708's or better, jenvey throttle bodies, omex 600 ecu and a decent exhaust system.

idea 3.
gti/vts engine, fully forged bottom end including zrp 1800 stroker kit, head work, 708s or better, omex 600 ecu, and a decent exhaust system.

idea 4.
gti/vts engine, fully forged bottom end including zrp 1800 stroker kit, head work, jenvey throttle bodies, 708s or better, omex 600 ecu, and a decent exhaust system.

all builds will include a L&B flywheel, lightened pulleys, and a suitable clutch.

If anyone has any exp' of similar builds please share your experiences, ideas and opinions on what you'd do differently and so on, im not leaning towards any idea at the moment so open to what ever is suggested so please share your feelings on what you would do.

azza :)

[wadoryu]

Probably talking no2 with ph4 to hit that.

[AzzAW93]

Probably talking no2 with ph4 to hit that.
idea 2 does seam like the most realistic as i could complete that build alot quicker than idea 3&4, but i dont mind taking longer if i get i right.
after reading today its mixed reviews on the stroker kits and with not many people running them its hard to get good information.

[wadoryu]

idea 2 does seam like the most realistic as i could complete that build alot quicker than idea 3&4, but i dont mind taking longer if i get i right.
after reading today its mixed reviews on the stroker kits and with not many people running them its hard to get good information.

The thing is, yeah you could build a car to XXX spec but what's the point if you can't drive it? 170bhp is going to be plenty in what you use the car for. When you're able to drive that on the limit then improve. Too many people on this site have built awesome cars, only for them to be split for parts.

[AzzAW93]

i hear you buddy that's why there is no rush to get it done tomorrow, i know all to well that i dont drive the car hard enough and have a hell of alot to learn about racing, proven this weekend where me and my dad double drove the pug and he kicked my ass on the 1st time he'd ever driven it. but that comes with experience and was to be expected but it proves that im not getting the best out of it yet.
but the current power isnt enough on some of the power hills such as shelsley and gurston so a new engine is a must in the future :)

[wadoryu]

i hear you buddy that's why there is no rush to get it done tomorrow, i know all to well that i dont drive the car hard enough and have a hell of alot to learn about racing, proven this weekend where me and my dad double drove the pug and he kicked my ass on the 1st time he'd ever driven it. but that comes with experience and was to be expected but it proves that im not getting the best out of it yet.
but the current power isnt enough on some of the power hills such as shelsley and gurston so a new engine is a must in the future :)

My engine builder (haven't actually used him yet lol) said a 160bhp saxo/106 will be a competitive car in trials/hill climb. And it was true been to a few club days and even basic VTRs were putting decent times in the wet.

[AzzAW93]

My engine builder (haven't actually used him yet lol) said a 160bhp saxo/106 will be a competitive car in trials/hill climb. And it was true been to a few club days and even basic VTRs were putting decent times in the wet.

well my dad actually managed to come 3rd in a class of 10 on the saturday and on sunday he came 1st in a class of 7. he was 1st in class all day while i was in 2nd up untill the last run where i stuffed up what would've been my best run and ended up 4th. but i dont think the class was as strong as were used to.
but your right we're very competitive against a few cars that you'd expect to be pulled appart by so they are good little engines they just lack the legs up some of the steeper straighter hills.

edit: my current engine is a late vtr with around 120bhp and im in the 1400 to 2000cc class

[wadoryu]

well my dad actually managed to come 3rd in a class of 10 on the saturday and on sunday he came 1st in a class of 7. he was 1st in class all day while i was in 2nd up untill the last run where i stuffed up what would've been my best run and ended up 4th. but i dont think the class was as strong as were used to.
but your right we're very competitive against a few cars that you'd expect to be pulled appart by so they are good little engines they just lack the legs up some of the steeper straighter hills.

edit: my current engine is a late vtr with around 120bhp and im in the 1400 to 2000cc class

Very nice, I was aiming for hill climbs at around 160, but decided in m current situation I couldn't afford to do it properly. Which goes against everything I believe in.

[Dave_P]

What revs do you want to use?

Fancy rods wont be needed if your using 708's.

Shorter gearing might help also...

[AzzAW93]

What revs do you want to use?

Fancy rods wont be needed if your using 708's.

Shorter gearing might help also...
id like to see 8000+rpm and i havnt looked much into the 16v cam options but i knew 708s were the common thing but i guess not many of the builds are forged so if Ph4's are better suited and so on then thats what i would run.

also i think im geared pretty low as is with the rallye box and 13" wheels obviously not to your extent but ive no complaint of my gearing as of yet :)

[axsaxoman]

you will need t/bodies + ecu + cams+
It would be sensible to fit hi comp pistons ,then what ever cams you fit later you will have piston clearance .
,but if being used for hill climbs + sprints first thing should be fitting c/r gear kit

[Dave_P]

The 743's are what you want if you stick with hyd lifters.
http://www.catcams.co.uk/acatalog/TU5j4_Remapped_Ecu.html

I used over 8k with hydraulic lifters in an old engine... its not ideal but it held together ok.

You could push the boat out and go for solid lifters then use 808's and some Iapel or similar pistons.
http://www.catcams.co.uk/acatalog/TU5j4_Mechanical_Race_Followers.html

[K567]

re idea 2

see my forsale thread and get all the parts you need cheap.....

[AzzAW93]

The 743's are what you want if you stick with hyd lifters.
http://www.catcams.co.uk/acatalog/TU5j4_Remapped_Ecu.html

I used over 8k with hydraulic lifters in an old engine... its not ideal but it held together ok.

You could push the boat out and go for solid lifters then use 808's and some Iapel or similar pistons.
http://www.catcams.co.uk/acatalog/TU5j4_Mechanical_Race_Followers.html
how much does it cost to go solid lifters roughly?
as im building it over a length of time ill be wanting to do it right 1st time :)

[Dave_P]

It costs more than a new set of Hyd lifters, it'd be best to contact Matt @ cat cams for a price.

[axsaxoman]

If you want to use 8k then 743 are WRONG cam choice as max power will be around 7-7200rpm. you could swing cams to make max power higher ,but will loose mid range and a wider range of power will be more useful than just max dyno figure

no engine maker in the world uses hydraulic lifters with 8k --thats becasue they are liable to fail or "jack -up" causing piston clash ,and one bad down change and missed gear at 8k could mean engine hits 9k -- no rev limiter can work on engine overun or hitting wrong gear
there are two types of solid lifter
ones with shims -
adjustable ones

the only possible reason for going to 8k on those cams is because the gear ratios are wrong -too wide an rpm gap between gears - you need to go to 8k so ithe rms are higher to match next gear ,or to save changing down cos the next gear down is too low

using 8k on std gear ratios is a waste of time as gearing will be so wrong
8k+ std gti box =160mph and gaps between std gears are too large from 1st to 2nd especially and 5th is too high
on sprints /hill climbs you won,t need anymore than 120mph @8k
--or maybe even less
Its simple ,drop your gearing by 30% with evenly spaced ratios and you get 30% more power at wheels --thats why we have gear boxs
you ideally want to go from max bhp, select higher gear and rpm drops to just below or around max torque,then the car never stops accelerating .

the wider the cams the narrower the power band ,so closer ratios gears and correct dif ratios become more important the higer rpms you use
touring cars used to gear for around 130-140,depending on track with 6 speed squential g/box,with 300bhp --then how you gong to pull high gearing with much less power and less gears

[welshpug]

RS4's V8 goes to 8250 on hydraulics.


Personally I'd avoid wossners etc, go farndon or carrillo, CP pistons.

Don't get hung up about revs, the quickest hillclimb+sprint or race engine in a pug wont need to be wound that far all the time to make very decent progress, only a full house or a compromised engine will need to be spun that hard.

something with a fat midrange grunt is what you need.

[jpsaxo]

My Genuine thoughts are along the same line as Welsh pug.

A great engine is to have an awesome midrange. What amazes me is the great midrange that my race engine has, it drives at 2,000rpm just fine!

If you wanted to do something different, why not do the 1800cc stroker kit (although Ive been told the ZF kit isnt the best of designs) and then keep hydrolic lifters and the 734 (not to be mistaken with 743) cams with 8k rpm limit which is plenty of rev's.

That way you'll have great midrange and id imagine around 200bhp top end power which is plenty

[solvi]

i go hydro folowers...and do 8k at track some times, but if brokes its all my fault!!

using 715 catcams...no itb, made 179.9 hp on a maha..

also if i had 200hp still be drivable...i think.

i chose option 2...and get a good ecu remap..