Selling a car with finance

[Stissy]

Hi Saxp, I need some advice.

I was recently involved in a legal battle against BMW about I car I bought from them last year. As a result, the dealership I bought my car from, agreed to ‘buy’ back it back from me, settle the existing finance, and return my deposit.

The BMW dealership have taken receipt of the car and returned my deposit. However, dealership failed to settle my existing finance, and have since sold the vehicle on to someone else.

My question: did the BMW dealership break the law by selling my old vehicle to someone else, with existing finance still outstanding in my name? If so, can someone provide me links to the law, or FSA regulations that I can quote while arguing my case?


tl;dr: Can you sell a car with outstanding finance?

[blackie_2k5]

yes they did :y:

yes you can..but if the finance is defaulted on then it will be repossesed as they dont own it to sell it

[ThrushMotorsport]

Technically the finance company is ment to give you permission upon request to sell it so, no - as it is "their car until paid off" as per your finance contract - however they won't really care as either way they are going to make money

But yes, you can sell it with outstanding finance left on it.

[chompy]

Do you have anything in writing from the dealership to say they will pay off the finance?

[Stissy]

yes they did :y:

yes you can..but if the finance is defaulted on then it will be repossesed as they dont own it to sell it

Do you have any links/supporting evidence to back this up?


Do you have anything in writing from the dealership to say they will pay off the finance?

Yes, and the finance has since been paid off. I am writing a letter of complaint to the top man, stating that one of the BMW dealerships sold my old car to someone else, with existing finance. All I need is a well-placed reference to a document that states what they did was illegal within the letter.

[blackie_2k5]

Do you have any links/supporting evidence to back this up?




Yes, and the finance has since been paid off. I am writing a letter of complaint to the top man, stating that one of the BMW dealerships sold my old car to someone else, with existing finance. All I need is a well-placed reference to a document that states what they did was illegal within the letter.

before we go any further... if the finance has been paid off how can the car be sold with it?

are you saying, at the time it was sold it had existing finance but as agreed they paid it off now

if so then it doesnt really matter as the car was returned and motions were probably already in place for the outstanding money to be settled. the car was probably financed twice by their finance provider and so they wont really care

in the real world..they did break the law by not settling it before they sold it.. but you proving that..any it being something any court would actually do anything about since its already settled, are two diff things

[blackie_2k5]

to sum it up "Contrary to previous answers,it would be illegal to sell your car with finance outstanding on it. You are not the owner of the car until the last payment has been made and cleared. Until that point,the car officially belongs to the financial institution who originally lent you the money to purchase the car with. Hence,hired purchase."

but as said..being the dealer they probably already had things in motion to settle the debt, and they also probably contacted the finance company and agreed to re sell the car

you proving otherwise would be really hard and probably more hassle than its really worth

[Stissy]

before we go any further... if the finance has been paid off how can the car be sold with it?

are you saying, at the time it was sold it had existing finance but as agreed they paid it off now

if so then it doesnt really matter as the car was returned and motions were probably already in place for the outstanding money to be settled. the car was probably financed twice by their finance provider and so they wont really care

in the real world..they did break the law by not settling it before they sold it.. but you proving that..any it being something any court would actually do anything about since its already settled, are two diff things

Exactly.

Basically, I believe, they used the money they made by selling my car to someone else, to pay off the finance. The car had been sold for around three weeks (during this period I was getting weekly red letters from the finance company) before they settled the finance.

The finance provider is BMW-FS, a completely different company with no link to the dealership. The finance deal on the car is a tri-party agreement, between myself, the dealership, and BMW-FS. It’s set up in that way so complaints can be cleverly sidestepped. Imagine it as three separate people, rather than just me and BMW.

I’m not bothered about going to court. All I want is some evidence to show they broke the law. My aim is to show how bad the dealership are.

[Stissy]

to sum it up "Contrary to previous answers,it would be illegal to sell your car with finance outstanding on it. You are not the owner of the car until the last payment has been made and cleared. Until that point,the car officially belongs to the financial institution who originally lent you the money to purchase the car with. Hence,hired purchase."

but as said..being the dealer they probably already had things in motion to settle the debt, and they also probably contacted the finance company and agreed to re sell the car

you proving otherwise would be really hard and probably more hassle than its really worth

For the purpose of the letter, the backstory is somewhat negligible and was only for explanation. The only thing I need is a concrete statement of evidence that “a dealership cannot sell a car with existing finance” – regardless of who owns it, or what company the finance is with.

[blackie_2k5]

the only way youll be able to prove that.. is by finding the dude who bought the car and getting him to state when he bought it.. will need a copy of a dated receipt or something..as the garage arent gonna help you with that.

but again, other than clearing any black marks on your credit score theres not a great deal any court will do as the debt has been settled

[blackie_2k5]

For the purpose of the letter, the backstory is somewhat negligible and was only for explanation. The only thing I need is a concrete statement of evidence that “a dealership cannot sell a car with existing finance” – regardless of who owns it, or what company the finance is with.

citizens advice or a trip to solicitor be able to help..try CI first as its free

[Stissy]

the only way youll be able to prove that.. is by finding the dude who bought the car and getting him to state when he bought it.. will need a copy of a dated receipt or something..as the garage arent gonna help you with that.

but again, other than clearing any black marks on your credit score theres not a great deal any court will do as the debt has been settled

I went into the dealership in person, and said “you’ve not paid off my finance” and they said “the car has been sold to someone else”. At which point, I believe, they had broken the law.

All I need is a statement from a reliable source that states “a dealership cannot sell a car with existing finance”. Forget about chasing the dealership through court, or tracking down the new owner for a dated receipt, or trying to clear black marks against my name, or anything like that. For the purpose of the letter, that is ALL I need. (As stated in the original post).

[blackie_2k5]

again.. i cant really see what good its gonna do you, but try these

youll have to email them.

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/contactus

[Stissy]

again.. i cant really see what good its gonna do you, but try these

youll have to email them.

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/contactus

I don’t want anything out of it, it’s a matter of principle.

Cheers for the link.

[SNewham]

You don't own it until you've paid for it. Your name on the V5 isn't proof of ownership that's only proof of keeper. If the finance isn't paid off then you don't own it, you'll need to pay that first or talk to your finance company to ask for permission to sell the car in order to finalise the debt owed.

A lot of times if you're doing part exchange with a dealer, they will pay off the finance for you when part exing the car.

[SNewham]

Hi Saxp, I need some advice.

I was recently involved in a legal battle against BMW about I car I bought from them last year. As a result, the dealership I bought my car from, agreed to ‘buy’ back it back from me, settle the existing finance, and return my deposit.

The BMW dealership have taken receipt of the car and returned my deposit. However, dealership failed to settle my existing finance, and have since sold the vehicle on to someone else.

My question: did the BMW dealership break the law by selling my old vehicle to someone else, with existing finance still outstanding in my name? If so, can someone provide me links to the law, or FSA regulations that I can quote while arguing my case?


tl;dr: Can you sell a car with outstanding finance?


You are not legally able to sell the car at all as you don't own it. You are the one in the wrong here as the finance should have been resolved between yourself and the dealership before you attempted to hand over "ownership" to them. Where or not you talked to them about settling the finance is besides the point, if you have nothing in writing then you are in the wrong not them for the first instance. However, they are in the wrong in the second instance of selling it on as the car is not theirs to sell it is still "owned" by the finance company as they paid for it.


*edit*

My question: did the BMW dealership break the law by selling my old vehicle to someone else, with existing finance still outstanding in my name? If so, can someone provide me links to the law, or FSA regulations that I can quote while arguing my case?

Yes but you also broke the law selling it to them in the first place so I suggest you come to a mutual agreement with them quickly in order to settle the finance before your finance company takes action against you as the registered keeper and the person who has their name on all the finance docs.

Scott

[Stissy]

You don't own it until you've paid for it. Your name on the V5 isn't proof of ownership that's only proof of keeper. If the finance isn't paid off then you don't own it, you'll need to pay that first or talk to your finance company to ask for permission to sell the car in order to finalise the debt owed.

A lot of times if you're doing part exchange with a dealer, they will pay off the finance for you when part exing the car.

Thanks for the reply.

I understand what you're saying, but as stated in the original post, the dealership resold my car before paying off the finance - as I believe, that is illegal.

You are not legally able to sell the car at all as you don't own it. You are the one in the wrong here as the finance should have been resolved between yourself and the dealership before you attempted to hand over "ownership" to them. Where or not you talked to them about settling the finance is besides the point, if you have nothing in writing then you are in the wrong not them for the first instance. However, they are in the wrong in the second instance of selling it on as the car is not theirs to sell it is still "owned" by the finance company as they paid for it.


*edit*


Yes but you also broke the law selling it to them in the first place so I suggest you come to a mutual agreement with them quickly in order to settle the finance before your finance company takes action against you as the registered keeper and the person who has their name on all the finance docs.

Scott

The finance has since been paid off by the dealership, and the car has been resold, also by the dealership. Just not in that order. This seems like the sort of information I need. Do you have any sources or legal references for this?

[sharpy24]

I get that you're making the complaint out of principle now, however if it was me, I would be more concerned about my credit history as you have stated you have had 'red' letters from the finance company, presumably about missed payments, this will all be recorded in your credit file that you are a late payer and will affect any future finance application massively.

You should to make contact with the finance company and find out how many late payment markers have been left and if they have issued you with any defaults also as these are even worse. You need to get these removed so that you can get credit in the future.

[Stissy]

I get that you're making the complaint out of principle now, however if it was me, I would be more concerned about my credit history as you have stated you have had 'red' letters from the finance company, presumably about missed payments, this will all be recorded in your credit file that you are a late payer and will affect any future finance application massively.

You should to make contact with the finance company and find out how many late payment markers have been left and if they have issued you with any defaults also as these are even worse. You need to get these removed so that you can get credit in the future.

Yeah, the red letters were due to none payment, once the BMW dealership told me they were going to settle the finance, I cancelled all direct debits to BMW-FS. You’re right though. It’s something I’ve already addressed and sorted (I’ve actually now got another finance agreement with the same BMW-FS). The fact I got the red letters and had to sort it all out is ridiculous, and also forms part of my complaint.

[Jamie]

I get that you're making the complaint out of principle now, however if it was me, I would be more concerned about my credit history as you have stated you have had 'red' letters from the finance company, presumably about missed payments, this will all be recorded in your credit file that you are a late payer and will affect any future finance application massively.

You should to make contact with the finance company and find out how many late payment markers have been left and if they have issued you with any defaults also as these are even worse. You need to get these removed so that you can get credit in the future.

All of this.

That's all that's worth sorting out from what I've read. Principle or not, doubt anything will come of it however your credit score has most definitely been affected and I'd want any discrepancies sorted out before it affects you further along the line.

[Stissy]

All of this.

That's all that's worth sorting out from what I've read. Principle or not, doubt anything will come of it however your credit score has most definitely been affected and I'd want any discrepancies sorted out before it affects you further along the line.

You should probably read my response to this (and other) comments in this thread. I have already begun procedures to rectify my credit score, and have since taken another finance contract.

Maybe I’ve not explained it very well. The letter I am writing is an update to a longstanding situation, which concerns the illegal sale of the car, my credit rating, and many many other issues.

[Jamie]

You should probably read my response to this (and other) comments in this thread. I have already begun procedures to rectify my credit score, and have since taken another finance contract.

Maybe I’ve not explained it very well. The letter I am writing is an update to a longstanding situation, which concerns the illegal sale of the car, my credit rating, and many many other issues.

Ok,

So everything is pretty much sorted now bar you are obviously not happy for the inconvenience/ stress etc caused by the in proper procedures followed, following the sale of your car after you had already had issues with them which lead to the car going back in to their possession?

What is it your aim once you get a response or they admit they did wrong? A good will gesture of some description /free service(s)?

I would be peeved angry and want to complain, but they will find a way to swerve it.



How and to whom are you going to "show how bad the dealership are."?

Do you mean socially for consumers i.e social networking or show them up to the big guys with the letters by revealing how they dealt with this? I hope you get what you seek, but I still doubt you will get anything other than an apology or possibly a good will gesture of some description which maybe they think you've had with managing to hand the car back.

Or maybe I today, am missing the bigger picture. I get what they did and you have some resolve. I think the reason I can't understand what it is you want is because I can't see how it will go any further than an apology or gwj. That doesn't necessarily mean I am right obviously.

[Stissy]

Ok,

So everything is pretty much sorted now bar you are obviously not happy for the inconvenience/ stress etc caused by the in proper procedures followed, following the sale of your car after you had already had issues with them which lead to the car going back in to their possession?

What is it your aim once you get a response or they admit they did wrong? A good will gesture of some description /free service(s)?

I would be peeved angry and want to complain, but they will find a way to swerve it.

How and to whom are you going to "show how bad the dealership are."?

Do you mean socially for consumers i.e social networking or show them up to the big guys with the letters by revealing how they dealt with this? I hope you get what you seek, but I still doubt you will get anything other than an apology or possibly a good will gesture of some description which maybe they think you've had with managing to hand the car back.

Or maybe I today, am missing the bigger picture. I get what they did and you have some resolve. I think the reason I can't understand what it is you want is because I can't see how it will go any further than an apology or gwj. That doesn't necessarily mean I am right obviously.

Yeah. Well, I don’t want anything other than to voice how bad the dealership are (a good will gesture would be nice though). This is the latest issue in a long long line of problems (if I made a list, honestly you wouldn’t believe it) and as I say, the letter doesn’t just address this issue.

The person I’m complaining to, is the top man who manages the dealerships. He needs to know that this stuff goes on.

[MuZiZZle]

Other than not being an Ibiza, or whatever you normally waffle on about, what was wrong with the BM?

Mazeltov!

[Stissy]

Other than not being an Ibiza, or whatever you normally waffle on about, what was wrong with the BM?

Mazeltov!

Ah a jew. I was hoping your comment would be related to saving money. The BMW had loads of issues mate, I had the car for about 8 months, and every week something went wrong. Sometimes it was a minor electrical fault, the door locks mechanisms breaking, the electric window motors not working so I couldn’t wind down the windows, the sunroof trap mechanism failing (the sunroof thought something was in the way, so wouldn’t shut) etc. Other time’s they were major safety/engine faults, the electronic steering column lock failed (which prevented me from starting my car), the engine light came on three times (a vacuum valve failed, an injector exploded and the fuel pump failed) and the car would randomly shut down while I was driving – the last time it happened I was on a duel carriageway. The whole front end of the car (bumper, bonnet, wings, lights etc) had to be realigned, twice, because it wasn’t straight, I could go on... In short, the car was ridiculous.

[MuZiZZle]

*dual

Honestly!

Also, sounds like a reet lemon!

[Stissy]

*dual

Honestly!

Also, sounds like a reet lemon!

Thank you :)

It was mate, i'm speaking to a few BM enthusiasts and it's showing all the signs of being poorly remapped. I think the previous owner had it mapped by some knock off garage, started to get problems, then traded it back into BMW.