2 Queries - limiter + braking

[rushy_23]

Was having a chat with a mate the other day.
Basically we were on about the limiter on cars and also the best technique for
harsh braking.

Limiter
All I wanted to know is, when you rev a Saxo/106, all the way to the Redline,
does a limiter actually kick in? And when it does what actually happens?
Also is pushing the car to the limiter bad news? I pretty much know it is but
is there any real harm that can be caused as I though the limiter was there to
prevent this

Braking
Basically whats the best method of braking from high speeds? Just hold your
foot on the brake, or brake hard but easy the pressure a little bit each few
seconds.


I tried the braking (didnt even bother with the rev limiter thing) and felt that
releasing the brake was a bit dodgy cus you could feel the car jerking more
and car didnt seem to bite enough. But at the same time holding your foot
down on it felt too harsh. I started gently easing it in.

[MaRiO89]

Rev limiter: The limiter is there to prevent damage to the engine as you said, i dont think it will damage your engine revving it out to the rev limiter, i do it quite often in first and its never done my car any harm.. i expevt people will tell you diffrent but i'm just speaking from my own experience.

Braking: when i brake i brake hard in one go like whilst blipping the throttle on the down changes to take strain off the gearbox.

Hope this helps

[MaRiO89]

When you hit the limiter it just stops pulling as the ignition is being retarded.. i think, lol.

[hesslevtr]

yeah a limiter kicks in

you can hear it it sort of like cuts out but starts again

i find the best way of breaking is just to put the foot down and down change to

[rushy_23]

Cheers guys, that for the info.

[Luke]

Even though the limiter doesn't probably cause any damage, I hate putting my car through it. The feeling is quite weird, as it feels like you stop as your moving (if you get me haha). It kicks in at 6,250rpm aswell.

From high speeds, I gradually brake and change down as and when!

[bullit]

the engines pretty bullet proof, ive redlined mine for 5 years and its fine :P

the limiter will stop at around 7500 even though it will be 7250. i wouldnt worry. i hope you get the use out of bodies as youll be running a 7800-7850 or more for lairy cam

[Ryan]

it was stated in the past that Cit tested the engines to 12-15K

[Barry123]

pointless taking the engine that far on standard cam.

[Ry_B]

Hitting the limiter when the engine is warmed up every now n then is fine, holding it on the limiter/hitting the limiter on a cold engine is not fine...when you hit the limiter there is an oil surge, every time it hits it causes immense wear on all the moving parts of the engine!

[MaRiO89]

Basically, when the engines warmed up, just touching the limiter in each gear, no point in doing it as said on a standard cam, but if you did would cause no harm whatsoever.

[Donphan]

when you rev a Saxo/106, all the way to the Redline, does a limiter actually kick in?

Umm no. . . isnt the limiter past the red line?

[MaRiO89]

just into the redline..

[bullit]

red line starts at 6800 limiter at 7200

[R4T]

maximum power is at in between 5k and 6 k neway so revving to the limiter will do nothing for any1 but put excess wear on the internals,my mate has a 106 gti and hits the limiter everyday without fail i have no idea why but it hasnt even broken down in 16months!! im very shocked!

[Barry123]

maximum power is at in between 5k and 6 k neway so revving to the limiter will do nothing for any1 but put excess wear on the internals,my mate has a 106 gti and hits the limiter everyday without fail i have no idea why but it hasnt even broken down in 16months!! im very shocked!

time will catch up on him

[MaRiO89]

Tbh, it just wont catch up on him, a rally prep guy i know takes those TU 16v's, resets the rev limiter to like 8500 and puts a diff cam in obviously, leaves the rest alone and he said they never go wrong, hit em on the limiter all the time during rallies etc. Engines aren't as fragile as you think, rember we are talking big pieces of metal here, not bits of plastic! Aslong as decent oil is used and they are warm, you wont have any problems!

[Foggy]

We have two limiters programmed into the ECU.

The first, a soft limiter takes it down to 2 cylinders at 8450 and a second hard stop cuts the lot at 8600.

Watched mine on the dyno sat at 8600 for 5 mins.

[MaRiO89]

:):):):) Awesome foggy! :y:

[Foggy]

Try not to use the limiter too much, apart from on the long straights !!!!

[MaRiO89]

:) True

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n3E0qzi2KIY

like that yeah! Watch it, lol.

[Barry123]

Tbh, it just wont catch up on him, a rally prep guy i know takes those TU 16v's, resets the rev limiter to like 8500 and puts a diff cam in obviously, leaves the rest alone and he said they never go wrong, hit em on the limiter all the time during rallies etc. Engines aren't as fragile as you think, rember we are talking big pieces of metal here, not bits of plastic! Aslong as decent oil is used and they are warm, you wont have any problems!

does Mr Rally man take a look at his engine after every couple of runs?

There will be wear going on on the engine components regardless.

[Foggy]

Went to Pembrey earlier to watch first round of Welsh Tarmac Championship, and there was a Challenge spec LHD Saxo there.

Guys got all the gear but no idea. Not that impressed, but got some good ideas for strengthening the front lower arms.

He was having problems all day.

[MaRiO89]

Who are you referring to, me or foggy..

If me, yeah obviously it gets checked, its a race car, lol.. oil gets changed after every event which is like 100 miles, less usually.. But like is said, if really good oil is used, not alot of wear will be produced, the limiter is there to prevent damage.

[MaRiO89]

Just beacause you have the money, dont mean you can drive though.. :)

There are alot of people rallying like that!

[Foggy]

does Mr Rally man take a look at his engine after every couple of runs?

There will be wear going on on the engine components regardless.

The car gets checked through out after each event, gets an oil change every 2 events (250 miles Mobil 1) and a gearbox oil change every 4 (Silkolene Syn5).

Cambelt and alternator belt is changed every 1000 miles regardless, and the engine is due to be rebuilt at the end of this year.

[MaRiO89]

Have you ever heard of AC services foggy?

[Foggy]

Have you ever heard of AC services foggy?

Not off the top of my head

[Barry123]

edited above post to make more sense.

[MaRiO89]

Oh, kk its just the dude who owns it, andy collard, runs as course car on the somerset most years, thought you may know him.. lol.

[MaRiO89]

i already answered that adsayer, and the engines like foggy said get rebuilt, but thats only because of the extra rpm's. A standard road car hitting the limiter isn't a prob..

[Foggy]

Prob know him by sight.

As you can see from above, the engine and box has to be looked after even if it is all steel. Had loads of problems last year with a head gasket failure and a clutch exploding damaging the box.

Rallying doesn't come cheap......

[MaRiO89]

Oh no, my dad had to give it up due to the money! :(

[Foggy]

Its not only the building the car bit, its all of the stuff as you go along. Spent £1200 last week on bits ready for Somerset!

The average 40 mile event costs us £1000 and thats without damaging the car.

[MaRiO89]

Yeah, maintainence etc and even entry fee's! Stupid money tbh! :)
must be worth every penny though!

[Foggy]

The average entry fee is £400, route notes £30, management pack £30, fuel for the car £100 (£200 if we use MSA Fuel), Fuel for management car £50, Fuel for van £50 - £75 (Depends on mileage) then you have accommodation costs and keeping the guys fed and beered up!

[MaRiO89]

lol, i know, tis alot of money! Good fun though, been in a few rally cars myself and they are soo nice, i love em!

[Foggy]

It is good fun, but you do tend to think about the kids when you go flat over a crest and don't know whats on the other side, so there is a lot of trust between the two of us.

Its not only about the Saturday event, but we have a good Friday night out where ever we are as well. Curry and a few beers make the car go better.

[MaRiO89]

Yeah i see what you mean..

LOL, have a good mash up, not too much of course, ;)

[Foggy]

We tend to take our main sponsor down to Somerset, as Minehead is good for a laugh, and as long as you keep the sponsors happy the money keeps coming in.

[MaRiO89]

yep, thats the way mate! Will be waitiong wiv the cam at somerset! Will get much better pics this time..;)

[Foggy]

Hopefully will get one of our lot out with a camcorder as will so that we can get some videos done.

Got to get the car cleaned and looked at over the next few weeks as new brakes are to be fitted, so will probably put a set of standard calipers fitted with Mintex M1144's and a set of Tarox Grooved/Drilled discs up on the for sale bit.

[MaRiO89]

Good stuff! post em up when they are done! :) I would buy them if i hadnt recently bought new ones recently! lol..

[Foggy]

Went mad and bought a set of AP works Citroen 4 pots with the largest discs you can get under a 14" wheel. They do look the dogs do-da's with AP and Citroen across the face of them..

[MaRiO89]

:) is that same as the ones off the 1600 kit cars? I know they use AP brakes. Thats car is proper spec'd up man.. :) Good choice in engine though, 1400 8v, keeps some of the 16v boys quiet, lol. ;)

[Foggy]

Its the set off the Challenge cars, as the kitcars ran the larger set of brakes with 15" alloys on gravel (290mm discs) and 17" alloys on tarmac (345mm Discs). Challenge cars ran the earlier VTS/R 14" rims like us. (Apart from the tarmac 15"Braids)

[MaRiO89]

oh ah yeah..love those challenge cars though..:) Do you do just gravel rallying btw?

[Foggy]

I like both, but Steve (who drives) prefers to do gravel. I personally like sitting in the co-drivers seat.

[MaRiO89]

Good stuff.. That car would be seriously competetive against higher classed cars on tarmac i reckon!

[Foggy]

Did an event last year on tarmac instead of going testing on our own, plus was cheaper.

We were over the bigger cars all day, and upset a few as we were pushing bigger cars down the straights. Were setting top 15 stage times and finished 28th (Should have been 12th if not for brain fade by the driver!) Not too slow through the speed traps either. Lots of people thought that it was a VTS until we lifted the bonnet.

[MaRiO89]

:) good stuff, i thought it would be quick. Well it has more bhp than a standard vts, but tuned power is always better than standard, are you going to the french car show woth it, just to put on a stand or anything?

[Foggy]

Thinking about trailering the car up, but not sure about stands or stuff.
We think that its good advertising for the sponsors as well, as the car is being seen about.
Got a show on Easter bank holiday Monday, Coleford Carnival of Transport.

[MaRiO89]

Oh ah, would be good to see the car at fcs though, ;) Would get loads of attention! just what you want really..

[MaRiO89]

BTW, is the car based on a westcoast?

[Foggy]

It started life as a VTR, plus another 2 VTRs went into building it

[MaRiO89]

So is the engine a down sized 1.6 or a 1.4 put into it.. Harry hockley motorsport use a vts engine and down bored it or whatever to a 1.4 for the 1400 class..

[MaRiO89]

rather a gti engine in a 106, lol.. they have a maxi 1400

[Foggy]

We sent a 1360 TU engine to the builders from a Furio, but not sure if the same one came back!! I know they cocked up 3 heads drilling to put in the inlet tubes.

[MaRiO89]

Shit! Bet that got expensive for them! How come you didnt use the black top engine? People say they are stronger which i disagree with..

[Foggy]

We had an engine hanging about from an engine conversion we did. We did have a low mileage Berlingo engine to pick up from the local dealer, but the scrap man got to it before we did. Everything except the block was new in the engine, hence the 5k price tag.

[MaRiO89]

Oh rite. Well cheers for the info etc.. I'm off now to bed! Stripping the car down tomorrow interior and exterior for a good clean.. :)

[Foggy]

Only another 3 and a half hours of work left, then an hours ride home on the bike to wake up!

[MaRiO89]

What bike you got?

[Foggy]

An Aprilia Pegaso 650 - 4 stroke single - Dakar/trailie thing.

Good fun to ride, as you go everywhere in the wrong gear just to hear that thumping 4 stroke pulling!

[MaRiO89]

Yeah nice bikes, i used to have an aprilia, an rs 125.. They fly for a 2 stroke!

[Foggy]

Not exactly the fastest thing in the world, but done the back breaking bike bit and wanted an easier ride. Had a 1000 Ex-Up before. Far too fast. Things went by before you realized... See car in distance....Think what to do....Gone by car!

[MaRiO89]

1000 ex-up? yamaha? I nkow what you mean, only a 125 but dangerous nonetheless, quit while i was ahead!

[Foggy]

I tend to look at gaps now and think, do I need to go by, whereas I used to just go through and not worry. Must be getting old.. LOL

[MaRiO89]

LOL, i do miss the bike though.. Nice to ride, quite peaceful late at night too..

[Foggy]

Takes me 45 - 60 mins to get to work by car, 35 - 45 by bike, plus dont have to pay bloody bridge on the bike! £5.10 is a rip off every day!

[MaRiO89]

Yeah true! anyways off now bud, cheers!

[Foggy]

Chat again soon, as I am on nights all week.......

[MaRiO89]

Yeah, defo.. :y:

[rushy_23]

OMG my Thread has been ruined, you gay lesbians.

[MaRiO89]

LOL, you had your answers earlier on.. We got a bit off track, soz. :y:

[Ry_B]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ay8GmzqVp08

Tht car hit the limiter every day from coldd, the longest it was held on the limiter was 48 seconds timed by my mate lol. it really did live no matter wat happened to it. treat my zr extremely well tho, only hit the limiter twice that i can remember, both times unintentionally