Drive shaft / gearbox problem?? (crown wheel)

[Simo]

Some of you may remember the "clunk" noise I've been experiencing... coming from the passenger side of the car... as a reminder: -

When accelerating medium to hard in 1st or 2nd gear, when I get to around 3000rpm upwards, I hear a loud judder and the car physically shakes! It doesnt appear to do this in 3rd, 4th or 5th gear?

But why is this? More strain on gearbox in 1st/2nd gear?? Theres no way I could do a standing launch at the moment for fear of something snapping... literally!

There is no burning clutch smell, so dont think its clutch judder.

SOme people suggested it was probably the gearbox mount... Ive taken the battery off and tightened that from above... also tightened the gearbox lower mount. The top gearbox mount is tight, but Ive not taken it off to inspect.. could be sheared???

Anyway.. back to the judder in 1st/2nd gear. I started to think today that it could be the cogs in the gearbox.. for 1st & 2nd gear.. teeth rounded off and slipping under hard acceleration??

Somepeople have also suggested that the diff could be about to explode.

And tonight.... I saw a little pool of oil on the driveway. Looking under the car, the I see oil dripping from the passenger side driveshaft boot. result maybe...

BUT, has this failed because there is a problem with the gearbox.. or has the driveshaft been causing the judder?

It looks like the rubber boot has twisted round under force. gearbox spinning, but wheel not maybe??

Please let me know your opinions, as I really need to get this sorted. smileys/sad.gif

/members/Simo/35C_driveshafta.jpg

[citrovts]

it is possible that your inner tripod balljoint is broken

tjeck your haynes manual simo

[Simo]

Thanks Wouter.. looks like that is the problem!

After speaking to Bucky, he had the exact same problem on his AX/VTR turbo.

"I had this on my old AX GT. No-one could find the problem. Not even wingrove motorsport up here.

When I booted it in 1st and 2nd the car was shaking.

When I was under the car I look at the shaft and it wasn't lined up right and looked out of place.

Basically the inner cv joint was fucked and 1 of the 3 bearings had fallen of and was inside the boot. new drivshaft and the problem was sorted."

So, I've just bought a new passenger side driveshaft. I will no doubt change the drivers side one in a few weeks too just to be sure!

/members/Simo/BA7_driveshaftb.jpg

[citrovts]

that looks realy new smileys/smiley2.gif

its always better to changs both side at once i think

and can you show a pic of the inside of the tripod balljoint just to see what is realy broke

[Simo]

Well I wont be fitting this shaft until Saturday, so maybe I will have ordered a drivers side by then also smileys/smiley17.gif

I will take pics of it when I take it off yes.

[Raysax]

Hope it dus the job boss, that pic luks messy. smileys/smiley11.gif smileys/smiley3.gif smileys/smiley11.gif

[Simo]

Ive replaced the driveshaft today and its STILL shuddering... so its not the shaft? smileys/smiley19.gif

Something must be really fooked somewhere, or out of balance?

[Simo]

This is so annoying!!!

After putting the new driveshaft on yesterday and taking the car for a test... it still made the shudder. I looked under the car this morning to inspect some other things and AGAIN the driveshaft inner boot had been mangled.

Now, this must happen during the shudder... and this is probably why my old driveshaft died in a similar way.

It looks as though one end of the driveshaft is turning and the other is slipping. So im presuming the gearbox end must be skidding under heavy load (acceleration) and the wheel end turning???

Could this be the case? Does this mean my gearbox is stuffed?

The pics below are of the new driveshaft.. before and after the test run! I have now untwisted the rubber boot, but no doubt it will fcuk up again if I accelerate hard again.

Im getting tired of trying to fix this, but I could really do with knowing what the problem is for sure, before I take it to my chosen garage, as I dont want to be without the car for more than 2-3 days. ( I will be waiting whilst the work is carried out)

So please let me have your views...

BTW, I've swapped wheels front to rear, but both were the same.. hub-centric spacers and NO plastic insert was present.. I dont think they are required as the spacers have a guiding ring on them. So that cant be the problem.

Simo'

/members/Simo/B89_IMG_1631.JPG

/members/Simo/D2F_IMG_1651.JPG

[Simo]

/members/Simo/C75_socket.jpg

/members/Simo/CBF_splines.jpg

[GSMotorsport]

Well how bizarre......... ive had problems snapping drive shafts all the time with 18" wheels on...

but that really is a strange one....

Maybe something to do with when your turbo boost kicks in? the force from it is some how doing that to the shaft?

I aint to sure on the connection in the middle.. but is that possible?

[citrovts]

maybe your inner splinnes are gone from the gearbox so that it is slipping or something

[SaxoAL]

crown bearings?? I had a similar problem and the mechanice said it was the crown bearings in the gearbox. Apparantly gettin the new box (which i did) would hav been the best option, rather than tryin to do repair the existing box

[Simo]

Somebody else has also said the crown will be the problem...

I hate problems like this where you cant actually SEE what the problem is smileys/smiley5.gif

Cheers for comments peeps...

[Simo]

A few pics inside Bucky's gearbox.. showing the crown. smileys/smiley5.gif

/members/Simo/36B_crown.jpg

/members/Simo/9ZZ_crown2.jpg

[Simo]

Just for the record...

My problem DID turn out to be the crown wheel... Apparently the crown wheel is simply bonded onto the diff.

After prolonged extreme torque, it is possible for the crown wheel to fall off the diff.

This hapopened with my gearbox, leading to a lot of nasty grinding noises and a total loss of movement.

This is the second gearbox I have broken in this way within just opver three years.

The crown wheel could be welded to the diff to stop it from slipping, but ultimately, this would probably lead to the diff itself exploding.

Dont you just love the chocolate gearboxes on the Saxo smileys/smiley17.gif

Hopefuilly this info will be useful to somebody else in the future smileys/smiley2.gif

[SaxoAL]

exactly the same as what happened to mine....!
Horrid noise!
Complete change of box as it was easier than rebuilding the bearing etc of the old gearbox.

[AdamH]

hm... simo did it whistle at all? my gearbox seems to whistle really loud then clonks on 3rd and 4th but no others? ive been told its the crown bearings or the balljoints?

let me know if it whistled or if i have a totally different problem smileys/happy.gif cheers

[burtay]

simo did bucky get his gearbox done that way with the bolts on the crownwheel or did he buy it that way?

unfortunatly i have the same problem i thing, last nigth 0.4/0.5 bar, was trying the car, seems like the same problem, will find out definatly tomorrow.

[Simo]

When accelerating medium to hard in 1st or 2nd gear, when I get to around 3000rpm upwards, I hear a loud judder and the car physically shakes! It doesnt appear to do this in 3rd, 4th or 5th gear?

Ok, a year has passed since the replacement gearbox was fitted... if you dont read back, the judder was due to the crown wheel on the diff... which eventually fell off.

WELL, Im now having the same noises in 1st/2nd gear again!!

Approximately 5 weeks ago my drivers side CV boor split causing all of the grease to escape from the joint. I have NOT yet replaced the boot, as I intended to fit a new driveshaft.

But now, after these few weeks, the judder has returned in 1st/2nd gear.

The symptoms sound like the crown wheel/diff again.... which is a pain in the arse if true.

But my question is.... could this noise/judder be due to the driveshaft I know is knackered... or is it definately going to be the diff smileys/smiley5.gif

God damn cars!!

[Ratty]

yes it could be, and the cheapest way to find out is to replace the inner cv boot, gunk it all up (after inspecting it to make sure its ok) then put it back on, but if it happends again... well you know the answer really smileys/sad.gif

[Simo]

OK, enough's enough I think... :err:

My gearbox is gearing up to explode again :( Last week the car started to judder again under moderate acceleration. By now I know this is the Crown wheel slipping.. getting ready to fall off and leave me stranded somewhere inappropriate!

I've reviewed my gearbox notes and decided to log things for the record: -

Aug 2001 - Original VTS gearbox failure. Lost all drive - unknown failure at time. VTS box re-fitted (replacement box #1).

Sep 2004 - VTS gearbox failure. Lost all drive. Crown wheel slipping. VTS box re-fitted (replacement box #2).

Nov 2005 - VTS gearbox failure. Lost all drive. Crown wheel slipping. VTS box re-fitted (replacement box #3).

Apr 2006 - VTS gearbox failure. Lost all drive. Crown wheel slipping. 1.1 Mk2 box fitted (replacement box #4).

Mar 2008 - 1.1 Mk2 gearbox failure. Lost all drive. Crown wheel slipping. 1.1 Mk2 box fitted (replacement box #5).

Mar 2008 - 1.1 Mk2 box slipping badly straight after fitting - suspect mis-aligned thrust bearing.

Aug 2008 - 1.1 Mk2 box slipping badly - re-fitted box and aligned bearing - still slipping badly - suspect mechanical failure of box.

===========

Can anyone give me any specific info about the crown wheel and how it is fixed within the gearbox. Ive never yet managed to strip a knackered box down.. .for many reasons (last box was stolen from garage LOL )

I decided a while ago to keep replacing the boxes as its the cheapest solutiuon. But Im hoping by now some other options are available, which aren't going to cost £2k+

Any recommendations on replacement boxes... or ideas to stop the crown wheel from failing? (peg it, weld it?)

Thanks
Simo

[AlexR]

They heat the crownwheel up then press the diff inside it, when the cw cools down it shrink fits so it's extremely tight. on one side of the diff there are bits that stick out and butt up against the side of the crownwheel so the are alligned when fitted. You could weld them together yes.

The crownwheel is held inside the gearbox by the diff which sits on bearings which rest on the inside of the diff housing.

Just get a quaife diff(crownwheel gets machined and then you get ball bearings inside to hold them together) and all will be fine. Loads of people popped the std diffs, fitted a quaife, no such problems.

[AlexR]

Also worth noting though that when you take out the weakest link, the next thing along the line becomes the weakest link ;) However plenty of people have run 200+ at wheels on quaifed boxes, it'll just wear bearings out quicker.

[Simo]

Also worth noting though that when you take out the weakest link, the next thing along the line becomes the weakest link ;) However plenty of people have run 200+ at wheels on quaifed boxes, it'll just wear bearings out quicker.

Nearly bought a quaiffe a couple of years ago, but it came with no guarantee for the power, so chose the cheaper solutiuon (replacement).

OK - thanks... I'll check out some prices!!

[lyndon]

get a 1.3 s1 rallye box :) Should be really good on yours mate.

[AlexR]

I'm pretty certain you won't kill a quaife diff, nor seperate it from the crownwheel.

I had big problems with putting power down with a standard engine and with cammed etc while cornering, been in a few diffd cars and it's a revelation, more power and the front wheels just drag the rest of the car where you point the wheels, up to a certain level anyway lol

Edit: A 1.3 box on that would be silly, you'd just be changing gear constantly, with plenty of torque a VTS box is ideal.

[AlexR]

Another point to note, teh diff itself is larger on 1.6 gearboxes and therefore the hole in the crownwheel is also so you are much less likely to "do" 1.6 boxes.

[Simo]

I think some of the problem is the twin plate AP clutch. It simply will NOT slip... so the forces can transmitted to the next thing that can be pursuaded to slip... the crown wheel :P

Who's the current favourite outlet for Quaiffe and new box builds?

[AlexR]

I'd speak to mart at tweeqd for a box build personally, he should be able to get trade price on diffs too. With you being in warrington it's a bit awkward, he'd have to build the box up and you collect it. Don't know of anyone worthy of the task in the midlands, sure there is someone though.

[Wolz]

I've just started to get the same problems with my Turbo VTR ...... and im in the process of sorting a Quiffe'd diff gearbox off a friend hopefully this will sort the fault

[popsi]

maybe Im way of the real problem maker but could it be that the car has streched sideways...so the driveshafts dont sit right in the gearbox when you drive a full rotate wheel...just a thought...

[evolotion]

bump for an old thread :) been researching as iv jstu suffered a similar failure, crownwheel has came loose on my 'box.

box is out the car and will be stripped tomorrow, plan is to fit a new diff, but stitch weld the crownwheel to the diff to try prevent the problem re-occuring, you really ought to atleast give it a shot ;)

my setup is a turbocharged rover k-series and R65 gearbox, but its the same internals as your MA boxes, jstu with better selectors and some other minor differences.