I don't know :(

I feel slightly retarded for not finding anything. But if sandy is getting it then it's gunna be freaking amazing!

Shame, a b16 on bodies would be epic. Similar engine spec to why the s1600s had? ( I don't actually know what that was, just having a wild guess)

5 years isnt long? After having that engine for 5 years I didnt feel i could go much quicker tbh, and kept destroying the gearbox trying to go faster last year, so time for a power upgrade!

Why settle for 200bhp per ton when you can have 280bhp per ton or there abouts :D

Oh..i see.

Like i said these progress blogs are way too long 280/tonne sounds :D

Thats why I created this thread (plug plug plug)

http://www.saxperience.com/forum/sho...d.php?t=189514

Which re-caps everything from the cars first few miles with me up until its current state on the first 2 pages!

The engine spec is pretty much finalised in my mind, but if I learn anything from my other engines along the way, that can be applied, then I will. The main thing for me is, whatever I decide to do with it, it needs to be reliable and low risk. Josh lives along way from me, so popping over to take a look if he has any problems/concerns, won't be possible. On that basis, I won't be doing it as a "Stroker". I have another customer locally that has asked me to do one and accepts the risks, so I'm evaluating it for his engine currently. The thing is, "Stroker" engines do not give you free power. The old saying "No substitute for cubic inches" is largely true, but when you're pushing the constraints of an engine that's already pretty much maximised, you can lose alot of what you gain, let alone the cost of parts.
I have alot of data already to draw on, from my other work on other engines, but to give you a broad idea of the numbers involved, here goes:

Standard engine: 78.5mm bore x 82mm stroke, 1587cc
Typical oversize: 80mm bore x 82mm stroke, 1649cc
Stroker engine: 80mm bore x 89mm stroke, 1789cc

If you're planning a fast road kind of engine, with hydraulic followers, the restrictions of rev limit and valve sizes are unlikely to be a problem, but for a race spec engine; it is a problem. The valve sizes I use in my race engines fit on the standard JP4 valve seat inserts, if you want to oversize the inserts (properly!), you'll be adding around £500 and the exhaust port will limit you anyway, there isn't enough material in the head to port to suit sufficiently big exhaust valves, for a free spec 1800, you'd have to make a compromise.
Regarding rev limits, we come up against the issue of piston speed and thrust angle. Peak piston speed and rod thrust angle will provide a glass ceiling for performance; beyond a point, frictional losses and wear become excessive; curbing performance and reducing engine life.

Probably not the best example, but perhaps the most extreme, is the Honda B18C. It's a more sophisticated engine in many ways that the TU and Honda went to a great deal of trouble to make the 8600rpm rev limit possible, including a very high spec big end bearing material. It has 87.2mm stroke and 138mm long con rods. That means, that at the rev limit, peak piston speed is 41.2m/s (24.7m/s mean) and rod thrust angle 18.4 degrees. That is very much on the limit of what you can practically do with regular high quality parts. That's about the same rev limit as i've settled on for my race TUs, as being durable and reliable, 8600rpm. A standard stroke TU5 with cup car spec rods (as most 1600s use), will give peak piston speed of 38.5m/s (23.2m/s mean) and rod thrust angle of a nice and steady 17.3 degrees. If we apply the same thinking backwards to an 89mm "Stroker" TU with 133.5mm rods (to make room for the stroke), we get a rev limit of 7840rpm and a rather worrying rod thrust angle of 19.5 degrees.
So if we assumed both the standard stroke (80mm bore) engine and stroker (80mm bore) engines operated to the same maximum piston speed and could both make 87lbft/litre at that peak speed, they would in fact; make the same power, 230bhp. Reality is, that the TU 16v head is very tricky to optimise for that level of performance and there aren't many engines genuinely in excess of 210bhp out there, with a decent torque curve anyway. Considering the very risky rod angle too, I'm not convinced a stroker kit offers good value. The other interesting aspect, is that there is a long stroke crank in the Peugeot range, that can be used, with modification and that's the route I may be testing elsewhere.

Getting back to the spec of Josh's engine, outline shopping list is as follows (SB=Sandy Brown, CS=Colin Satchell):

TU5JP4 block and crank
SB+CS steel flywheel, 7.25" race clutch
SB custom steel h-section rods
SB custom design pistons
Peugeot Sport sump baffles
SB ported and prepared head
SB custom single piece stainless valves
Piper double springs and retainers
SB custom solid followers
SB custom cam profiles
Alloy vernier pulleys
Steel belt rollers
SB+CS race spec GSXR TBs inlet design
Twin injectors
SB custom exhaust manifold (Stainless) and system
DTA S40 ECU and SB loom
Built, dyno run in and mapped by SB.

Every journey starts with a single step and here are some before pics, of the donor engine:








Block my need a little paint! There are many aspects of the engine I won't be showing in detail I'm afraid, but here's a sneak of my pistons:

Can't wait to see more of this engine build :)
I do want another Saxo as a play car and want to go big turbo/300bhp +.
Something about Sandy's engine builds that would make me want to stay N/A though. Basically I want big power to drive like a N/A engine haha.

Looking good Josh/Sandy, keep up the progress.

Pistons = porn

What a spec! Can't wait to see this when it's finished, certainly still will be one of my favourite cars on the site!

looking very good there josh, best you cant wait to get it all done now.

regards you car coming up this way...

i plan to get the ax sprayed outside on the 3rd and inside on the 4th ready to come back on the sunday or monday, or tht week when ever is best for you guys.

yours wont take very long at all though, i plan to keep work free for you for the week so onli yours been worked on, matts has been more a back burning job! really cant wait to see it all done mate:)!!

Thank you for the info Sandy:) Engine plans sound good Josh:y: will be immense once complete with mark doing bay etc and sandy doing the engine, those pistons are a work of art:)

Christ wouldnt it be cheaper to whack in a v6 lol

I swear your comments become more pointless...




Looks really good! Can't wait to see this come together!

What a post Sandy, awesome stuff!

It's been a long time saving up over the last 6months but my god it's going to be worth it, bring it on!

V6 engine no more than a couple of hundred plus a good mechanic and mates rates = win!

Or maybe saxo owners are getting richer these days :s

seems like a lot of money into this when a second hand evo would have been cheaper. thats just my view if the guy wabts to do this theb fair play but saving for 6 months to do this to a saxo seems odd

and saxp politics with 'thanks' is so playschool

A big heavy V6 in the front of a Saxo? That's going to do wonders for the handling.

Look forward to seeing more jp/ sandy. :y:

He's doing it because he wants to, and it'll make him happy.
If everyone did the logical or cheaper thing and never strived to be different or go further, then the cars, and the car scene itself would be pretty boring wouldn't it.

Yeah i know just i spent a lot of money once upon a time and it didn't work out and thats when i had the money. Just a lot of people on here just spend more and more constantly wanting power power power and then more power and you gotta think when is it going to end?

sandy brown you absolute legend!! what a post possibly the most technical well thought of post iv ever seen on this forum. clearly sandy your only breaking the ice of your knowledge with that post but wow!!

josh this engine is going to be seriously special

joshs car has done a fair few track days not to mentinon nurburgring x amount of times.

as he said before he has got used to the power and can drive it to its full potential - hes making it "faster" as he has reached the limit on his old engine.

awsom bit of info sandy,realy good progress Josh,will be amazing/interesting to see what its like once its done-ganna take some getting used to again=fun :)

haha awesome, Im excited for you mate, and scared a little too.... :))

And in the mean time turn it into a 'gayliner' that doesnt go round corners? :wall::wall:

In my opinion its more than worth the money, otherwise I wouldnt have gone ahead with it in the first place. And when I say saving up I still managed to pull in a weeks skiing, week in Lanzarote and a long weekend in Barcelona within the last 6 months lol

wouldn't worry anything without b8s and a lower brace is just nothing to him tanned man

can't forget a uber diffuser

sax-p politics live on i see!


suppose pulling 1.6G round a corner is pretty pathetic :D

and there's no need to show off now is there?

Thats fair enough everyone has their own opinion im only saying it because i couldn't afford to do that and would look at spending the money elsewhere on say prof driving tuition.

He hasn't reached them limit on his engine when a heavier less powered twingo can still lap 15 seconds faster with less laps under his belt too :D

oh yeah that and the stick a v8 in

Lol at joeboy's idiocy!

This going to be ready for the ring this year?

Gonna try, thanks for the positives :)

Sandy, what you doing up at that time lol


Jp, really excited to see how this develops.. proper build, proper engine, proper car!! Gunna be amazing

im not just talking about the nurburgring dude as if i had 500hp i would still only manage 10 min lol.That place is something elce,like josh said im sure he wouldent be doing it if it was not worth while.as he has had the car for a fair few years im sure he knows what he is doing............yes josh holidays hear and there stop showing off ;) LMFAO! ha ha

It'll be very interesting to see the end result that's for sure.

Will give u a txt now aswel to coordinate the travel to marks.

What lap was done in twingo?

"hardcore"joeboy please die k thnx bye x

No you had a stripped out 16v with a low end suspension setup and road tyres
could be built for sub 1k see alanapones thread for details

Joshs chassis is more than capable of more power and hes reached the limit of the 170hp he had its run circles around cars on several tracks

I admit im a.power crazed silly engine guy and i dont regret it for a second ive had tons.of fun with it

A v6 is a shitty engine to choose vtec in the back is probably a bit better and similar cash at the end of the day however people will do what they want with there money at the end of the day its joshs cash and his choice to spend it how he wants if you dont like how hes spending it then dont come and look

Much like yout comment about turbos are for people who cant drive in jungles thread in track prep you spout shit on every post you make

Lol at some of the above comments, Jelousy springs to mind

If it was built, used once and then broken for parts like most other projects on the internet then i could understand the comments

The fact it actually gets used for what it was built for makes it well worth the money imo

dont usually comment on other members comments for various reasons but dam you come out with some shit sometimes!!

on a serious note, loooks like a great spec and will be very interested to see how it goes and how much your times improve by etc.........

Not on topic but plenty of those witb race experience agree with me just because i dont hqve the technical/mechanical lingo to back my shit up dont makw me wrong.

I just say why spend so much when someone lije sexy-gt with a lower spec will still piss all over you..
Hell my 'poverty spec' suspension was good enough to see off stock hatches with the holy grail setup so...is it worth it?
And the twingo was a 8:40btg on r888 and 139bhp

But josh do as you please im not attacking just giving food for thought i know others here dont like it they would rather kiss each others asses than disagree about anthing. good luck will need to see vids when done

Vthe thing you arent accounting for with the twingo is weight they weigh fuck all if its a mark 1

Sexy-gt has similar spec to josh and tbh it wouldnt be far off between them i bet
you seem convinced jsh cant drive cause hes been out the country a bit recently but far from that tbh

Andi forgot your senna reincarnated and can beat anthing anywere in any car
do everyone a favour and just keep you opinions yo yourself if youve not noticed its very rare people agree with you and normally if the masses disagree with you your wrong

Anyway no hard feelings :hug: