prepping VTR for track work
 

alright all just wondering if some people with track experience could give me some info on how to prep my vtr for some track work. it will be starting pretty minor (ists this weekend) but i also have another track day coming up in the next couple of months. as it stands my VTR is standard at the moment and the brakes are shocking (are they all really bad?) it has nexen n2000 tyres on it which to be fair arent too bad for a budget tyre.

any advice will be good.

cheers all :)

Fresh brake fluid.
And decent tyres will help.
You can have the best brakes going but if the tyres have no grip it wont help.

All dpends on budget
braided lines
better pads, 1144 or equivalant
then you move on to suspension and start improveing that

service the car useing a good quality correct grade oil
check water levels etc
all things that should be done prior to any track day

thanks swampy. i have 5.1 to put in the brakes, what size are the nipples? how much are braided lines (i have ltd internet access at work) what are 1144? i ahve been considering using that standard set up for donny (ists) this weekend but im not sure if the brakes will be up to it as they feel pretty rubbish standard let alone out on track for 15-20 mins in sure they will boil.

with regard to correct oil does the vtr take semi synthetic 10/40?

one more thing my temp runs at almost 3/4 all the time so surely this isnt going to help once track time starts!? is there any way to lower it?

Braided lines are £45 a set of four ,deliverd from me with any color covers
yes a quality oil that grade is fine
1144 are mintex fast road pads so suitable for the odd track day

Yeeeeeee

Full service
Mintex m1144 pads will be good green stuff pads would be good on track though.
Grp N discs off kam are ok or a big brake upgrade
Decent tyres is a must, someone on here had a nasty track experience couse of cheap tyres.
Then id work on the chassis, all mounts, bushes, springs & dampers, braces, torsion bars, ARBS.
Strip it out, buckets n cage it, if it dosent do anything other than track.

Fully synthetic oil is better, that oil will be fine.
A thorough service including draining refilling and bleeding the coolant system might cure your high running temp.

thanks for the info. im not looking at turning the car into a full time track car tbh, but it is going to get used for track over the summer.

what would be the first things to change? i hear on here you can fit 206 2.0diesel calipers or 206 gti 138 brakes to a saxo with no problems they are bigger as well arent they?

if your taking brakes off another car then you can use

GTI6 calipers but need to grind down the carriers on them
other direct fit brakes are
206 gti
Belingo Van
206 gti 180
306 xsi

First things for me would be:

Tyres
Brakes
Springs & shocks (lowered)

After that, id do exhaust, induction, 4-1 manifold.

Then, all the mounts and bushes.

nice one. what are the prices roughly for the various brakes? and which ones are best? i presume the 180's are quite good.

yeh the 180's are huge lol

depends really

the 266mm option such as belingo can cost around £100ish

180 u can sumtimes find a proper bargain of like £200

I'd look @ Uprating the brakes,
getting better tyres,
then look at a suspension kit.

Tbh, i think a vtr on track would be no fun.

Kinda slow :/ even alex_vts said his cammed vts was the slowest thing on there.

Not wishing to put you down, but before you spend shed loads on your car, go and watch a track day and have a look at the kinda cars which turn up... its no fun being passed all the time

Its not about being the fastest car there though. It isnt a race :S. Its about having fun n driving etc not full on racing.

ages ago someone wanted to go on track with their 1.1 n got a load of abuse for saying so. alex_vts also said then that its the fun involved, and that just couse its a 1.1 n not the fastest car there dosent mean u aint gonna have a load of fun etc along them sort of lines.

Thats the sillyest thing I've read,
All cars can turn up to a track day mate.
it's not a race,
you're there for your own fun and experience.

I cannot drive a VTS / GTi to its full potential, so why would I want something quicker for the track?

thanks for backing me up. Really is a stupid thing to say lol

Don't bother with upping your brake size, just spend the money on some decent pads, I'd go with Pagid blues if I could afford them - think they are about £130.
bigger brake disks, pads and calipers mean lots more unsprung weight: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unsprung_weight
which could ruin the handling of a lightweight car like the saxo.
I'd be willing to bet that 95% of the people who have upped their brake size have never tried any 'proper' brake pads first. By all means put on some braided lines and dot 5.1 but Its worth noting that alot of small production based racing cars use single pot pistons with pads like pagid blues and performance friction 97's which will both perform well from cold and mindblowing when hot, as for those who advocate 4 pots for an 850Kg car! they are alright for looks i suppose.
Also worth noting that standard disks and calipers with high spec pads will far and away outbreak a car fitted with GTi 180 disks and calipers with standard pads, plus if you increase the caliper size you also have to increase the master cylinder size so your costings must have to include new calipers, a new master cylinder, new performance disks, new performance pads, lines and fluid = big bucks for a negligable gain in my opinion

Pagid rs4 blue are the dogs,far better than mintex 1144 or ferodo ds whatevers.
But the price of the pagids put alot of people off even trying them but once they do they never go back.
Greenstuff are worse than standerd pads and the best place for them is on the makers shelf!

If the berlingo ones are 266mm what are standard vtr ones? i have never really looked into it.

track days are not a race and the aim is to have fun.

Based on that the VTR / VTS is well up to the job and with some well chosen mods can hold its own

Personally if you are just starting out make sure the car is mechanically sound and just get out there. Part of the thing i love about modding cars is making gradual improvements over time and feeling the difference out on track.

Then sitting down and thinking about what would be the next big step in making is faster etc

247?

24 sumthing irc

With a good suspension setup and brakes, and a few engine mods, a VTR will be very fast on a twisty track.

And you cant expect to compete with caterhams, porsches, ferraris etc

Yes, I've personally heard from people with high performance cars that the small little 'French Tins' are one of the most annoying cars that you can find on a track.

Complete bollocks tbh.

Ive dont track days in a near standard vtr. Did I have fun? yes would be the response to theat.

Its not a race its about YOU having fun, to many people are worried about cock lengths

depends how well driven they are lol

Well i think you could have a bash at a few :y:

Caterhams are a doddle, so is the odd porche, ferraris are rarely driven hard on track days.

The odd cunt turns up in GT3RS's and push it, or at my last day we had a 911 cup car

Get your car serviced first off. Get yourself on track and you will quickly find out what you like and dont like about your car. You can then decide what you want to do with experience of where you felt the car was lacking.

As for brakes, I had uprated pads in my standard vts calipers, I then upgraded to a 266mm setup and I personally felt the 266mm set up was better.

Manic motors ran uprated discs and pads in vts and was more than happy with them and was very quick on croft

thanks for all the replies. i am looking forward to getting out there and enjoying some track time, i dont beleive for a minute it matters what car you have or what engine you dont have. its all experience to make you a better driver! i might look into the 266 set up. will i need to change the master cylinder for this set up or will the standard saxo one be up to it.

appreciate all the positive feedback from you all!

regards to the 266 set up, i havent fitted my M/C yet, but i have one waiting to go on, and if im honest it only feels slightly better than standard without it... maybe because im used to it now but i am upgrading to make it feel abit better.

I havent upgraded my MC and dont feel it is necessary, I have a good pedal feel and the brakes perform well.

If anyones lookign for a 266mm setup Williams can supply these

changing the mc wont affect how the pedal feel as such
it will just alter how much travel there is to get a given force tranmitted to the calipers

its all to do with fluid movement

alot is down to personel taste as to if you change the mc or not

To be honest the brakes are one of the last of the chassis mods to make.

IF you are properly building the car for track use first gut the car and get rid of all the weight.
A lighter chassis brakes, accelerates and corners better and also has less weight transfer forward, making the brakes for effective as there is less kinetic energy to transfer into heat.

Better suspension will reduce weight transfer forward under braking again helping reduce the energy needed to be dissipated

Once this is done, and you have the tyres you are going to use then you look at the brakes, evaluate how effective your current brakes are and the best way to upgrade.

Kev

if you took the time to read the thread and his posts he says he wont be stripping the car as its an every day drive

just wants to improve a few points that will help on track and off it.

improving the way it stops is always a good thing, cant stop fast enough with some of these idiots on the road, and being able to brake later and harder in to a corner will help shave time off a lap

granted he will also need it to handle well aswell but that can be done and still leave the car usable on the road

thanks for all the info. i need to bleed the brakes through anyway as they really do feel poor. one i have done this it might be a good time to evaluate the brake set up to see weather it is worth upgrading the standard pads or to go with gti set up. what size nut are the nipples on the calipers?

It takes 10 minutes to strip the back seats, boot carpet and floor mats out of the car. Id say its definately worth doing before you go on track even if its only a few kg's, and can be put back in in the same amount of time when you use the car daily. Good rubber and a thorough service is what i would suggest doing first.

"I detect a slight agitation captain!"



"cancel that order of bucket seats!"


Ok ;)
Seats can be replaced with lightweight bucket seats. Some are only 3kg each! if you dont want people in the back then you can remove sliding subframes and save a large amount of weight and lower your centre of gravity without loosing comfort.
Moving swiftly on the other two points still apply.
Your suspension will greatly affect weight transfer and better tyres, the co-efficient of friction between the tyre material and the road. These will do more to stop you in a shorter distance than keeping these standard and running bigger disks and calipers.
Once you have the above done then you can apply more braking force before loosing traction, so your standard brakes are more effective. There will be a point where you will generate too much heat and/or can't generate enough braking force to lock the wheels so an upgrade is necessary.
Personally I would keep the disk size to a minimum to save unsprung weight, but would look at 4 pot calipers as these run bigger pads. The larger surface area means they cope better with heat (and alloy calipers weigh bugger all).

After saying all of that though the greatest difference out on track will be you. Your driving style will determine how much heat is generated and how its dissipated. Personally I would take the car out standard at first. You need to learn to be smooth when cornering, making sure you dont overcook your entry speed as this kills tyres, and when braking to make sure you apply the brakes hard (without locking) never softly as the shorter the time you are on the brakes the longer they have to cool ready for the next corner. Understand your car and the track and you will be fast in a 1.1
When I'm racing the better drivers are 6 seconds a lap faster in the same Kart.

Oh. There is a mod you must do.
Get a CG-lock as standard seatbelts are shit on track.

Kev

thanks for that kev. i have been looking at getting some CG locks, my friend has them and rates them. i am going to start looking into changing a few parts before i book a atrack day. :)