The Saxo and 106 turbo / superchargered conversion guide - Saxperience

Sophia_Bush · 4th October 2009, 14:23

The following is for a turbo conversion, supercharger information can be found later on this thread when Andy K and dboyvts have time to add their experience in.

Right first consider are you going to do this yourself? If not and you just want someone to build it up for you do not read further go to one of the following companies to get it built for you

GMC motorsport
cituning
Manicmotors
Broga Racing
atspeed

Ok now lets get going so you have decided you want to build your self a saxo / 106 with a bit of boost. Few things you will have to consider first before you even think about getting parts for the build.

1) How much power you want? low boost big power etc?
2) Daily drive or weekend warrior?
3) Budget

Now what most people have a problem is £££ this is by no means a cheap project to do if you want it to run properly and look half decent, the easiest way to work out what you need is decide on 1 and 2 then you can see how much it will cost you to get to that power. There is no point in saying oh if I run x psi on x internals how long will it last and what power will I get how long it will last as every conversion will be tailored to each individual.

Lets say you are going for a "basic" low boost conversion say 6 - 8psi what will you need to consider? For this basic conversion you will need to consider the following parts as a minimum

Manifold
turbo
downpipe
oil pressure switch t piece
oil feed
oil return
sump return
intercooler
boost pipes
hoses
bigger injectors (more on this later on)

Now you will think now I have got the parts what do I do about the fuelling side of things and lowering compression? Depending on what your budget is here you have many ways to go about things, to lower compression since this is a basic low boost conversion you are looking at a single 1.9mm mls hg plus an appropriate sized decompression plate (more on forged internals later on).

Fuelling again loads of choices on this from the mf2 sigcon combo, dastek with 4 bigger injectors or full monty standalone.

Now with standalone it has more scope for future mods ie extra boost can be mapped more accurately to take into account temperature changes and adjust fuelling more accurately. Also with standalone depending on what you go for can be mapped by any competent person with relevant experience. With dastek it can control 4 bigger injectors and do alot of things a standalone ecu can but the restrictions in this is that only dastek dealers can map them, they don't help with wiring diagrams and cost the same set amount for mapping every time but if you are going for a set spec and not changing this could be the one you want. Now if you are thinking I can't afford that but I still want the fuelling side sorted so I dont kill my engine then the only other option is the cheapest mf2 5th injector and sigcon this can be mapped on the road by anyone by adjusting the potentiometers but with these units it wont be as accurate as a standalone or even a dastek unit. They will also not be able to adjust the fuelling for changes in weather temperature and will just fuel as previously set.

With fuelling it is important you get the right injectors to suit your spec as I can't say what to get here because as previously stated all specs are differing going by what each person wants and budget. For standalone ECUs much choice to have but typically looking at

OMEX
DTA
Emerald
Predator
Gems
MOTEC
MBE
Megasquirt

Any of the above will do the job fine but again budget features needed will dictate usually what to go for but also consider who is going to map the car and what they prefer

Places to get most of whats on the list above

gmc motorsport
dp engineering netherlands
cituning
speedflow (for oil feed stuff and t pieces)
alisport (boost pipes, intercoolers)
rally design/demon tweeks (for hoses gauges dvs etc, although silicone hoses can be had off sfs, samco, psh direct)
wooser, omega, arrow, acrilite (for pistons rods)
QEP (for turbo cams, rods pistons)
atspeed

If you are savvy and are willing to look for things look on ebay as you can get most of the hoses, pipes and intercooler new for good prices. As for price itself how long is a piece of string? this totally and utterly depends on were you go and how lucky you are.

Now I have covered the basics there are alot more things to think about when going for bigger power turbo spec injectors how much to lower compression by. This will all be covered by people contacted in a previous post that have done or are doing the conversion themselves, the idea of this is to give a more varied look on how to do things.

This is not the thread to be asking what power should I get with x y z, this is just to serve as a guide as to what parts are needed what needs to be considered when doing a conversion etc. Also do a search on what combos there are to run in regards to fuelling/what turbos/boost presure etc this has been covered extensively. Please use the search button for older threads of people who have asked many questions in regards to turbo conversion.

More information will be added to this guide as and when the people pmd have time to put together a post of theiir opinions, sources etc on the the varying conversions about

EDIT - Also please read the following thread after you have finished here very sound advice and nice price guide for a medium spec build

http://www.saxperience.com/forum/sho...d.php?t=382703

Sophia_Bush · 4th October 2009, 15:00

If you are thinking of big power you only have to look at Deans, Shauns and Colins 106 GTis all varying levels of power 300bhp+ thats when you start talking alot more ££££ BE box conversions, Quaife Diffs, forged internals etc all of which will be touched upon later on this guide.

Things like injector size, turbo size, boost pipe size, what forged internals all this will be covered just remember this guide is work in progress as more will be added on by others

ryanmt · 4th October 2009, 15:53

gems = vems!

Mathias · 5th October 2009, 11:28

Should be a sticky!!!

Ste · 5th October 2009, 11:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by WIDE-VTR-TURBO

Should be a sticky!!!

2nd that, when this is finished it will be cracking.

Heres something you might want to edit into the guide;

This is a list of PICO injectors. IWP042 can be got from the Clio 172/182/192 engines. The guide assumes you have the injectors at 3bar.

Sophia_Bush · 5th October 2009, 12:53

lads as said the idea of this guide you guys add whatever you think is needed in your own post so if you feel more points need to be expanded on then post away that was the reason of the pm so we get plenty of views and ideas from different people do the conversion their way.

Ste good info there mate

blackie_2k5 · 5th October 2009, 13:11

good to see this is up, will be a good source of info, my first input would be if you are serious about boosting your car buy this book
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Forced-Induc.../dp/1859606911

was reccomended tto me form lads on here a short while ago, im halfway through and its a cracking read, will give you all (or near enough) the info you NEED to know when staring up a project like this, very good book that is set out in lamens terms so athat anyone with some knowledge of car can understand, if you cant understand it your undertaking the wrong project

ryanmt · 5th October 2009, 20:51

2nd on that book, its a must for any diy-turboer!

saxmad88 · 7th October 2009, 23:22

I would tend to consider anything below 300 @ the flywheel a basic conversion, After this barrier you will nedd to start thinking about gearboxes (Atspeed Racing will be selling be4 conversion kits very soon, pm for more info) and clutches a bit more. You should ALWAYS research what parts you will be placing onto the car so everything is matched and will work and aid other parts of the build. You will need to look at cam profile, compression ratio, turbo size, head work and in order to spec something good.

Running the compression too low will give less real power in the low down revs, this in turn would slow down gas speeds exiting the engine and therefore increase the time it takes to spool the turbo up. Run the compression to high and with a dodgey bit of mapping your engine will detonate! The idea cr to run would be 9:1

Cam profile, this is something that has to be selected carefully on certain specs, Standard cams are pretty good for turbo applications, they provide a nice healthy lump of power in the mid range all the way up to 7600 rpm. However go with a wilder cam and you will start to see more top end gains and potentionally a bit more lag!

Now if your ever thinking about going above and beyond the 400- 450 bhp marker this is where you enter a completely new world. I wont say to much about this as not many people would probably consider it. So if you have any questions post them up or pm me.

Sophia_Bush · 18th October 2009, 14:39

pics of oil return in that thread

http://www.saxperience.com/forum/sho...d.php?t=264478

8v adapter manifold setup, 8v cituning setup and 16v cituning setup reference pictures thread

http://www.saxperience.com/forum/sho...44#post3768244

Sophia_Bush · 22nd October 2009, 13:01

Turbo Oil Feed Guide

http://www.saxperience.com/forum/sho...d.php?t=265434

pjw · 5th November 2009, 20:11

How does the 5th injector thing work then?

What can actually be achieved under standard management? (ie with the 5th injector setup above, is it just plug and play?)

ps also, where would you fit the oil cooler? in between the block and turbo supply?

Thanks added for the initial post ;P

blackie_2k5 · 5th November 2009, 20:32

the fifth injector works alongside you standard ecu and injectors, your standard's set as is, unturboed supplies fuel/air mixture in all rev ranges as is needed to run your car, this is what the ecu is programmed to do, when running a boosted set up your ecu will still supply the same as before as this is all it knows how to, you fit and mf2 and fifth injecotr unit to supply the extra fuel needed in all the rev ranges particularly the when the boost kicks in as your stock ecu does'nt understand it needs to as it cant read boost, so the mf2 is a seperate unit that controls the fifth or sixth injectors only, it hard wires into you engine loom and you map it by screwing/unscrewing the potentiometers.. each screw accounts for a rev range.... eg the first screw is 0-1000rpm 2nd screw is 1000-2000 rpm, so you adjust it to supply the extra fuel needed in each rev range for when say the boost kicks in and without it the car would under fuel, bit of a shit explanation but im v. tired and trying to explain how it works lol, mf2 as a manufacturer claims the mf2 and fifth/sixth injector can add enough fuel for up to an extra 200bhp... so its quite benficial but not even in the same league as say stand alone or even a piggy back ecu like a dastek, as these are all one sytem that uses just the four (or however many injectors your engine has) injectors your engine has to fuel your set up... with the added advantage that it understands boost and can account for changes etc the mf2 cant

pjw · 5th November 2009, 20:41

Thats a great reply mate thanks. It seems a little bit medieval to just throw in some fuel through the throttlebody but if it works, hey, fuck it.

Ive got a T25 and 56mm inlet/TB, intercooler and oil supply and return hoses already. After some research i figure this is the way ill go.

How much can an MF2 box set me back?

Will standard injectors work fine for the four in the head? And is the fifth a standard one too?

Standard garrett T25 actuators run at 6psi, so with a straight pipe up to the throttlebody and no boost controller id be happy running at actuator pressure as long as its fuelled sufficiently.

Please bear in mind all the above is for a very low boost setup and not looking for mahoosive powah.

blackie_2k5 · 5th November 2009, 21:02

can get mf2 from gmc (bit expensive last time i checked) or ebay brand new fro 219 iirc?
or second hand as and when they pop up(on ebay) for bout 100-130, but youll need a sigcon 2 or 3 for this type of set up.. its known as a signal modifier and this is what helps the standard ecu to understand the boost to try and adjust the fueling more suitably, hope im not confusing you here as this slighly contradicts what ive already said but its trying to explain the jist of what the mf2 set up is..... ive got a sigcon 3 for sale if your interested or saxo_89 has got the full set up for sale if you wanna pm him. standard injectors are fine in the car and the same for the fifth as this is all youll need at actuator pressure on a t25.

pjw · 5th November 2009, 22:42

£200 seems a little excessive like with the full chebang setup on cituning for £495, but then i suppose youve got to get it all in and working. I never used to, but i think thats quite a fair price tbh.

What happens to the fuel sprayed all over your closed TB immediately after you let go of the pedal and before the dumpvalve dumps to recirc or atmosphere?

Ste · 6th November 2009, 09:27

If the MF2 is setup right it should have stopped spraying well before the throttle butterfly shuts.

pjw · 6th November 2009, 11:05

How could it possibly do that? If your on boost and let go, it cant even be a split second before the butterfly is shut..

ryanmt · 6th November 2009, 11:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by pjw

How could it possibly do that? If your on boost and let go, it cant even be a split second before the butterfly is shut..

Ecus are fast enough to make a good number of calculations for every few degrees of engine rotation.. at 7500rpm.. a split second is a lifetime.

Franc3z · 8th November 2009, 14:56

Very good thread

Where I can buy the pieces?

Are this a good choice ?

In portugal are dificulty buy pieces and are very expensive.

I hope u help me.

Cump's