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6th September 2012, 01:46
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#1501
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Saxperience Post Whore
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Sydney
Posts: 8,525
Car(s): Mango Westcoast
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Hi from Malaysia 
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6th September 2012, 07:06
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#1502
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Saxperience Post Whore
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Nuneaton
Posts: 6,476
Car(s): RB RS 200
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Quote:
Originally Posted by unreal106
Lee how wild you say it compared to Danny's when low boosted?
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it's hard to say really Tom Danny's was just a delivery of torque followed by a lot of pace. in jp's you feel like your going really quick but Theres hardly any kick the delivery is that perfect. like you know in our cars in say 2nd when you mash the throttle from like 2k to limiter you get that kick near 4k well in jps you don't really notice that, the mph just builds fast like. no doubt in my mind low boost will still be quicker than Josh's car but I really don't think there's much in it at all mate
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Racing Blue RS Clio 200 Bitches 
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6th September 2012, 21:09
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#1503
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Regular Poster
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 449
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I think its us lot that should be giving the thanks to you sandy
...oh and josh with his deep pockets 
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7th September 2012, 06:16
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#1504
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Regular Poster
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Cornwall
Posts: 349
Car(s): 106 XSi
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Cheers Scottie!
I'm not sure it's easy to make fair comparisons between an engine like this and boosted ones. The delivery is completely different and although in a straight line ultimately the boosted ones should be more powerful and hence quicker; around a track things are very different.
I've developed this spec through racing and it's been proven to be quicker than vastly more powerful charged cars running under the same rules. The elastic and bump delivery of a charged engine is not that helpful in FWD, especially out of tight corners, where traction dictates the speed onto the next straight, track position for defending and so on. It's a bit like filling a cup from a tap compared to a bucket! Having incisive, accurate and predictable driveability, with a wide power band to ride out a single gear on the exit from lower revs; really helps with track performance. That's why I've developed my engines towards a wide/full curve and nicely sloped part throttle behaviour. It's a happy side effect that it makes for a nice engine on the road too!
Spiky or stepped delivery can make the power seem greater, because of the calm and storm effect, but it's misleading in regard of true performance. It's a widely held view, that Honda deliberately dialled in the step in VTEC delivery to emphasise the higher rev performance, I've mapped alot of Honda engines and they all lose the step easily if you move the switching point!
Outline spec (SB= Sandy Brown and CS= Colin Satchell):
JP4 block over-bored to piston spec.
Standard 82mm JP4 crank, journals polished and balanced, SB/CS custom steel flywheel, CS front mounted crank trigger and alloy pulleys
SB custom H-section rods by Robson
SB custom slipper forged pistons by CP
Peugeot Sport baffle kit in J4 sump pan
SB race JP4 cylinder head (Serdi precision cut seats, ported to suit spec, surface ground gasket face)
SB custom single piece stainless valves
Piper double springs and modified Piper retainers
SB custom solid followers
SB custom cam profiles ground by Piper
Piper cam pulleys
SB and CS race spec GSXR1000 TB inlet (ported with the head) with twin injectors per cylinder and ITG filter
SB designed custom exhaust manifold, made by Edwards Motorsport
DTA S40 ECU on SB custom loom
Helix 7.25" race cerametallic paddle clutch
Built and mapped by SB
Last edited by Sandy309; 7th September 2012 at 07:41.
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7th September 2012, 07:11
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#1505
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Established Member
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 1,802
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I hate the V-Tec step, if you're not changing at 8300rpm you are 'out' of it next gear and have to wait. Toyota did it on the 4AGE engine using retarded ignition timing up to 5500rpm when their T-VIS kicked in
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7th September 2012, 08:20
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#1506
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Saxperience Forum Bum
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: South Wales
Posts: 3,076
Car(s): ZX 16v, 205 GTI, 309 Goodwood, 405 MI16.
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Looks ideal for a rally car .
Whats the ballpark figure for an engine alone mapped if the customer has some sb/cs bodies and an ecu already (your preffered s40!). Also would you use j4 or jp4?
The belgians would love this on the stages!
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7th September 2012, 08:55
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#1507
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Super Moderator
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Cambridge(ish), UK.
Posts: 10,581
Car(s): BMW 5x M50d.
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I love the tractability of a flat torque curve. One of the reasons I sacked off the big bhp setup from last year was for this very reason - a tiny (un)usable power band thanks to a really spiky torque curve.
Even now, my curve is nowhere near as good as josh's but vastly improved from last year, making 250ft/lb from 4500 to 7000+ rpm, without changing more than 10ft/lb over that range. SO much more drivable.
Watching Josh's car at the weekend was just like that - smooth, long, effortless power. It's really dialled in well, and although needs more power ( ) really is something to see. I'm super impressed with how it goes!
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7th September 2012, 09:54
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#1508
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Saxperience Post Whore
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Sydney
Posts: 8,525
Car(s): Mango Westcoast
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Thanks for all the comments lads,
I have to say.... Apart from the power (obviously) the drivability is the best thing about this engine. If (for any reason) I want to pootle along it will drive at 2,000 rpm in 5th perfectly fine, it will also start up with just a turn of the key and idles like a normal engine - let alone the excellent fuel economy.
I really am chuffed to bits with Sandys engine, can't fault it one bit!
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24th September 2012, 14:55
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#1509
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Saxperience Post Whore
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Sydney
Posts: 8,525
Car(s): Mango Westcoast
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Hey guys
Apologies for the lack of updates on this that I promised after Trax, I've been flat out moving into our new apartment in Sydney and sorting everything out, our Internet should be installed in a week or 2, as soon as that's up and running I'll get this thread bang up to date 
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24th September 2012, 15:01
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#1510
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Saxperience Post Whore
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Sydney
Posts: 8,525
Car(s): Mango Westcoast
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Quote:
Originally Posted by welshpug
Looks ideal for a rally car .
Whats the ballpark figure for an engine alone mapped if the customer has some sb/cs bodies and an ecu already (your preffered s40!). Also would you use j4 or jp4?
The belgians would love this on the stages! |
The SB/CS bodies on Sandys race engines are different to the kits they supply, so you'd be looking at the full cost of the race engine baring the s40
This engine is a jp4 110bhp engine originally, so now producing over DOUBLE the power and still NA
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24th September 2012, 15:30
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#1511
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Saxperience Forum Bum
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: South Wales
Posts: 3,076
Car(s): ZX 16v, 205 GTI, 309 Goodwood, 405 MI16.
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Fair enough, do you know how they differ and what would the ballpark figure be if the customer has a base engine?
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24th September 2012, 22:43
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#1512
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Super Moderator
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Cambridge(ish), UK.
Posts: 10,581
Car(s): BMW 5x M50d.
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All - sorry for delay I've been rammed with work and meant to get the video sorted for this but it kinda got bumped down the todo list!
Josh, here's the HD version of your video. Looks a thousand times better than the quick hash
And sorry for the terrible image (camera phone shot of my laptop screen!) here's a grab of the power the car made peak by sector. It's not 100% accurate as I don't know your exact wheel/tire details and I've estimated Cd as 0.38 which is for a 106 iirc but it works out pretty close
Last edited by Ross; 24th September 2012 at 22:48.
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25th September 2012, 00:53
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#1513
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Saxperience Post Whore
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Sydney
Posts: 8,525
Car(s): Mango Westcoast
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Quote:
Originally Posted by welshpug
Fair enough, do you know how they differ and what would the ballpark figure be if the customer has a base engine?
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A jp4 engine is around £250? That's probably around 2% of the total build cost
The race TB's are slightly larger and matched to the head, if you read through Sandys posts over the last few pages he pretty much covers everything for you
Last edited by jpsaxo; 25th September 2012 at 01:03.
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25th September 2012, 09:02
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#1514
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Frequent Poster
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Scunthorpe
Posts: 694
Car(s): Vauxhall Corsa SRi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jpsaxo
A jp4 engine is around £250? That's probably around 2% of the total build cost
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That's shocked me, about £12500 for the engine is a lot less than what I thought it would be!
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Originally Posted by sammyd
basically you got a sti and if you dont get it seen too then you dick turns out to be a pickle then falls into a jar of vinegar
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rushy_23
As long as it doesnt end up the colour of your car I know I will be cool  |
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25th September 2012, 11:35
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#1515
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Saxperience Post Whore
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Sydney
Posts: 8,525
Car(s): Mango Westcoast
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Quote:
Originally Posted by garner90
That's shocked me, about £12500 for the engine is a lot less than what I thought it would be!
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Exactly, its a bargain when you consider the work that goes into making an engine that no other engine builder in the Uk can achieve
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25th September 2012, 11:45
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#1516
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Saxperience Post Whore
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Sydney
Posts: 8,525
Car(s): Mango Westcoast
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ross
All - sorry for delay I've been rammed with work and meant to get the video sorted for this but it kinda got bumped down the todo list!
Josh, here's the HD version of your video. Looks a thousand times better than the quick hash
JPSaxo - Citroen Saxo Westcoast 220+bhp NA - YouTube
And sorry for the terrible image (camera phone shot of my laptop screen!) here's a grab of the power the car made peak by sector. It's not 100% accurate as I don't know your exact wheel/tire details and I've estimated Cd as 0.38 which is for a 106 iirc but it works out pretty close
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That would be around about right mate as I wasn't using the full rev's, that's a great insight into the speeds carried around the corners etc
15inch wheels / 50profile r888's are my track set up
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25th September 2012, 12:06
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#1517
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Super Moderator
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Cambridge(ish), UK.
Posts: 10,581
Car(s): BMW 5x M50d.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jpsaxo
That would be around about right mate as I wasn't using the full rev's, that's a great insight into the speeds carried around the corners etc
15inch wheels / 50profile r888's are my track set up
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Excellent - I'll recrunch the numbers tonight, but I don't think it'll drift from those figures much tbh. I put the weight in as 900kgs iirc, as you had your fat self in there and the missus Sound about right?
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25th September 2012, 12:25
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#1518
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Saxperience Post Whore
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Sydney
Posts: 8,525
Car(s): Mango Westcoast
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The car is 805kg with half a tank, I'm 70kg & shay is 50kg + had a full tank of fuel so closer to 950kg in total I'd say
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25th September 2012, 12:45
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#1519
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Super Moderator
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Cambridge(ish), UK.
Posts: 10,581
Car(s): BMW 5x M50d.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jpsaxo
The car is 805kg with half a tank, I'm 70kg & shay is 50kg + had a full tank of fuel so closer to 950kg in total I'd say |
speaking of which... The photo of her sleeping... Hmmm, now where did that go??
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25th September 2012, 13:34
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#1520
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Saxperience Post Whore
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Sydney
Posts: 8,525
Car(s): Mango Westcoast
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Haha! God knows how she could sleep with the bodies barking on the way down
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