Turbo, Carbs, Throttle Bodies, Boost???

[blackie_2k5]

if theyre reputable they should be fine mate. AET as in the company that makes wideband and stuff like that?

EDIT- hold the phone im thinking of AEM neber mind ..

[Jungle]

As requested got a picture of my graph...

[maddison_vts]

Yeah, was really happy with the results of it all. As you can see with the graph, there is no 'violent torque/power increase' to strip gears or break traction as gmc always quote. It was brilliant and very useable. The only transmission issues I ever had were through me being over aggressive with it.

I'd like to see someone supercharge one with as much power, in a such a smooth delivery, on the same budget and on standard internals. Not going to happen imo, therefore turbo over supercharger any day if you ask me!

Not forgetting the fuel economy either or the fact it had no lag...

And to add to all of this, I went through the whole of last summer with no cooling fan and I did use the car every day, so the 'dangerous under bonnet temperatures' isn't exactly true either.


Its all horses for courses, I can totally understand the attraction of ITB's, personally I prefer boost and if you're going boost then turbo is the better and more cost effective route imo.

axsaxoman - After reading everything you think of turbocharged setups it appears you're stuck in the days of the old escort rs turbo's and sierra cosworth's where there was mega lag and then a massive hit of power that just caused wheelspin. Yeah, thats a crap system. However, times have changed and I'm sure you're aware that technology has advanced. It just seems that you want to sell everyone a supercharger and then try and justify it by pointing out problems with turbo's that really just aren't problems anymore...

[blackie_2k5]

tbh after all i read on here before/during my build.... i was expecting to have gone through a box or 2 by now, my box if it hasnt been changed...got nothing to suggest it has, is now on 98k, and has done about 4 or 5k hard driving since the turbo went on, at current and for a good 2k at least its got about 230lbft going through it and its showing no signs of going yet, no noises or anything, and going off my graphs my boost does come in fairly strong in a big lump

my main worries are the shafts...but they seem fine for time being also, as said in the thread e8 made about bursting engines... i think too many ppl take too much stock in what happend a good few years ago, and as youve mentioned, times and technology has moved on

[logic_guy]

9 Pages of info!

It'll take me half an hour to read through all this.

[adzvtr]

Originally Posted by maddison_vts

Yeah, was really happy with the results of it all. As you can see with the graph, there is no 'violent torque/power increase' to strip gears or break traction as gmc always quote. It was brilliant and very useable. The only transmission issues I ever had were through me being over aggressive with it.

I'd like to see someone supercharge one with as much power, in a such a smooth delivery, on the same budget and on standard internals. Not going to happen imo, therefore turbo over supercharger any day if you ask me!

Not forgetting the fuel economy either or the fact it had no lag...

And to add to all of this, I went through the whole of last summer with no cooling fan and I did use the car every day, so the 'dangerous under bonnet temperatures' isn't exactly true either.


Its all horses for courses, I can totally understand the attraction of ITB's, personally I prefer boost and if you're going boost then turbo is the better and more cost effective route imo.

axsaxoman - After reading everything you think of turbocharged setups it appears you're stuck in the days of the old escort rs turbo's and sierra cosworth's where there was mega lag and then a massive hit of power that just caused wheelspin. Yeah, thats a crap system. However, times have changed and I'm sure you're aware that technology has advanced. It just seems that you want to sell everyone a supercharger and then try and justify it by pointing out problems with turbo's that really just aren't problems anymore...

you do have to spend more on a charger to get better gains, however the power delivery is a little less harsh on drive train,.

urs was very linear m8, it was a gt17 with uprated actuator wasnt it. was epically quick aswell.
how long did the box i gave u last in the end???

[KamRacing]

Originally Posted by blackie_2k5

tbh after all i read on here before/during my build.... i was expecting to have gone through a box or 2 by now, my box if it hasnt been changed...got nothing to suggest it has, is now on 98k, and has done about 4 or 5k hard driving since the turbo went on, at current and for a good 2k at least its got about 230lbft going through it and its showing no signs of going yet, no noises or anything, and going off my graphs my boost does come in fairly strong in a big lump

my main worries are the shafts...but they seem fine for time being also, as said in the thread e8 made about bursting engines... i think too many ppl take too much stock in what happend a good few years ago, and as youve mentioned, times and technology has moved on

sounds like you have mechanical sympathy in your foot

[mangojace]

oh dear wheres John gone?

[adzvtr]

looking at this thread tho its an arguement that will never be won.
there are those that swear by turbo and argue it till there blue in the face.

there are those that swear by charger and argue till there blue in the face.

both have there benefits both have there down falls.

and then the n/a arguement is the same.
i think everyone can agree tho

getting 200bhp which ever way its done is pretty epic in a saxo/106,ax etc.
and boost how ever it comes is WIN

[axsaxoman]

I,m here ,you cannot compare s/h stuff + home built --no labour or jig costs cost involved when comparing with ready made kits .
it would at least 8 years ago I suggested that the std scoby or evo turbo would be a far better match than what most were using and I have always offered to do a turbo conversion from scratch if someone wanted ,but as to making kits ready to bolt on with new parts --the pricing will not be any cheaper than the s/c .If you can make bolt on kits for £5oo with all the boost controls and oil+water plumbing then i suggest you are in the wrong job.
unfortunatley if i quote for a job the customer expects my costings to be accurate -not a vague historical guessof what was done
making big power at low rpms --not a problem you just decide on the rpm range as you have and gear the charger to suit-- I notice your graph doen,t even go to 6k and no sign of it dropping ,so you will excuse me thinking that this is not the best of graphs to get any sensible information from-- were you worried about it going bang?
you are showing you have alot of power from an 8v at low final rpm
i wonder if the 16v turbo lads would not consider that a little unbelievable 240@wheels @around 5800rpm--or 280@flywheel from a std 8v with just 1.3bar of boost

the more i look at the graph the less it looks like a boosted graph ,normally the torque comes up and is then afairly straight line and the bhp goes up as a function of rpm -it certainlty is an unsual shape ,can you explain ,and i mean this in a nice way --why it is that shape.

[maddison_vts]

Originally Posted by adzvtr

you do have to spend more on a charger to get better gains, however the power delivery is a little less harsh on drive train,.

urs was very linear m8, it was a gt17 with uprated actuator wasnt it. was epically quick aswell.
how long did the box i gave u last in the end???

Yeah, it was a gt17 with a different acutator. Adz, you don't need to edit your post to come across more polite mate, I won't be offended or get in a tantrum about it lol
I don't deny I had numerous gearboxes in my saxo, most of which though were when it was n/a. I was very very aggressive with it which resulted in breaking a few gearbox casings. The only time I had an actual box fail was when I stripped 3rd gear in the wet one day, it broke traction and I kept it pinned (not a great idea, I admit) as soon as it hit anti skid the car regained grip immediately and stripped the gear. I still put this down to aggresive driving though as I don't think many gearboxes would put up with that level of abuse. After that, I had your standard open diff box in there. That lasted roughly 6 months before the diff began to make some worrying noises so that came out and the vts box went back in with the quaife diff in it. By this point I'd learnt my lesson that driving with a little more mechanical sympathy will save me playing the 'change the gearbox game' which had stopped being fun After that I had no more transmission issues.

Before I turbo'd mine I had put a lot of thought into which route I was going to take with it, the reason I chose turbo over itb's or s/c was;

.the most bhp for my £
.noise, i do love the noise of turbo's :cool

To me, it seemed the most cost effective way of getting a quick car.

The point I was trying to make was that boosted cars don't have to be all or nothing.

Each to their own, like you said adz everyone will argue that the one they have is the best route to take. Its to be expected, no doubt had I supercharged mine this post would be reading how much better they are and the benefits of them etc etc.

you did see first hand how much abuse my engine took and how much time it spent above 7,500rpm and I think this goes to show that regardless of the state of tune be it s/c, turbo or itb's, mapped correctly these engines are fantastic.

[axsaxoman]

Originally Posted by maddison_vts

Here you go axsaxoman...
this is a rolling road printout of my old low boost set up turbo vts. Completely standard intrernals and built for around half the cost of a supercharger setup. The car was very very predictable and I had NO ISSUES putting the power down at all, I could put my foot to the floor in 2nd and get no wheelspin due to the linear power delivery. It also returned 43mpg and didn't skip a beat the whole time I had it. I never once broke a driveshaft, or had traction issues. The turbo would spool from 1,500rpm and hold boost until 7,000rpm. This dyno printout was when it was on 9.5psi, I ran it for quite a while at 12-13psi still with no issues.



edit, as you can, this was dyno'd in may on quite a hot day and it was also the back end of a dyno session and iirc it was about the 15th car on the rollers so you can imagine the heat in the garage. Had I taken the car back on a nice cool day, no doubt I would have seen a few more ponies on the printout...

now that looks more like a boosted graph --you can see where the turbo starts to run out of puff at top end and torque drops even though bhp is still rising
i think i would be changin gear well before the 7800 --little difference in power once above 6500rpm = it will help engine life

[maddison_vts]

Originally Posted by axsaxoman

now that looks more like a boosted graph --you can see where the turbo starts to run out of puff at top end and torque drops even though bhp is still rising
i think i would be changin gear well before the 7800 --little difference in power once above 6500rpm = it will help engine life

I had the shift light set at 6,500rpm. It pulled well to 7,000rpm but after that you could feel it didn't have any more to give. Draw back of using a fairly small turbo I guess

[adzvtr]

no worries lee, didnt edit it to sound nicer i missed the part about u being agressive with the box lol.

ye m8 i know for sure u didnt mother the car and it kept going,
you did what i wanted to do before me lol.

its funny cause u were all for charging first and i was all for turboin.
decided to charge as u already had a turboed one round here, wanted to be different.
the best thing i could suggest is if u drove mine to compare the difference.

u might be suprised on how aggressive even the charger is really.

[Jungle]

Originally Posted by axsaxoman

I notice your graph doen,t even go to 6k and no sign of it dropping ,so you will excuse me thinking that this is not the best of graphs to get any sensible information from-- were you worried about it going bang?
you are showing you have alot of power from an 8v at low final rpm
i wonder if the 16v turbo lads would not consider that a little unbelievable 240@wheels @around 5800rpm--or 280@flywheel from a std 8v with just 1.3bar of boost

the more i look at the graph the less it looks like a boosted graph ,normally the torque comes up and is then afairly straight line and the bhp goes up as a function of rpm -it certainlty is an unsual shape ,can you explain ,and i mean this in a nice way --why it is that shape.

Ignopring all the first bit at is irrelevent and difficult to understand.

Limiter is set at 6,500rpm as with the old controller boost used to drop off well before then. This graph was during a quick mapping session the night before trax, so didn't have time to mess about moving the limiter. It doesn't go all the way trhough because we were in the process of putting more timing in so wasn't doing full 0-limiter runs as like i said we were in a rush, shortly after the clutch started to slip so we called it a day. Gaz did me that map in approximately 30 minutes as I needed to take the car out and bed the brakes in so i was rushing him. This graph was never meant to be a propper power run but you wanted evidence so i got it for you.

I don't know why it's that shape and i don't know what shape you think it should be but that's just how it is. I don't fully understand mapping so can't answer, I don't see why it matters though that proves how smooth the power comes in.

Sorry mate but all you've done is tried to call me a liar after i proved you wrong. It's not on and I'm sure if Gaz saw this he wouldn't be happy that your calling him a liar as well as he prides himself on his honesty with customers!

[maddison_vts]

Yeah, I was sold on s/c up until a couple of weeks before I got all the turbo bits. It was just a sudden change of heart and the winning factor was cost. I wanted it fully done and converted, mapped etc in 2 weeks and funds just didn't allow to get all that done in a 2 week slot with a s/c. No regrets though, and tbh I'd do it again but go for more power the second time round. (I doubt it will ever happen though given I've just bought another s14a lol)

Get yourself out on a sunday night soon I'd love to go out in it tbh just to see the differences in how it responds You got any ideas on what power it is yet?

edit - this is to adz lol

[adzvtr]

Originally Posted by maddison_vts

Yeah, I was sold on s/c up until a couple of weeks before I got all the turbo bits. It was just a sudden change of heart and the winning factor was cost. I wanted it fully done and converted, mapped etc in 2 weeks and funds just didn't allow to get all that done in a 2 week slot with a s/c. No regrets though, and tbh I'd do it again but go for more power the second time round. (I doubt it will ever happen though given I've just bought another s14a lol)

Get yourself out on a sunday night soon I'd love to go out in it tbh just to see the differences in how it responds You got any ideas on what power it is yet?

edit - this is to adz lol

id hate to say at the moment, id like to think its around 250 atw.
will find out on the 7th november when it goes for cam timing and final mapping. but needs a new fuel pump b4 then as it starves for fuel when really going for it.
need to book a couple sundays off work so can get to some meets. u can take it out then make a true comparison for both.

[maddison_vts]

Originally Posted by adzvtr

id hate to say at the moment, id like to think its around 250 atw.
will find out on the 7th november when it goes for cam timing and final mapping. but needs a new fuel pump b4 then as it starves for fuel when really going for it.
need to book a couple sundays off work so can get to some meets. u can take it out then make a true comparison for both.

thanks very much

With the fuelling issue, for the time being keep the fuel above half a tank and you should find it stops it. Obviously a new pump will be better long term and if you will be showing it a lot of track use then maybe a swirl pot and or baffled tank?

I think the TQM guys are organising a rolling road day soon but I think it will be before november so it will be no good for you but if its after you've had it mapped you should pop along.

[adzvtr]

Originally Posted by maddison_vts

thanks very much

With the fuelling issue, for the time being keep the fuel above half a tank and you should find it stops it. Obviously a new pump will be better long term and if you will be showing it a lot of track use then maybe a swirl pot and or baffled tank?

I think the TQM guys are organising a rolling road day soon but I think it will be before november so it will be no good for you but if its after you've had it mapped you should pop along.

ye m8 ive just priced up a swirlpot setup with a bosch 044 pump and sytec filter and stuff, thats what ill be doing as its gunna see alot of track next year.

have to say at trax my first session apart from the rain it was ok, (tank half full)
on the 2nd session after 2 laps it kept cutting out at around 110, and on the corners. light was on lol

[axsaxoman]

get that fueling sorted NOW--by the time you find its run lean and detonated its too late ,engine wil be gone --especially if running std internals