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Saxo Engine/Performance If you're interested in tuning Saxo engines, or if you need to know something which is engine related... this is the place for you.

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Old 15th June 2007, 12:09   #1
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Default The Big EXHAUST Thread - Please read for advice on Exhausts

The Big EXHAUST Thread

Ok, a cars Exhaust system, Like a Induction kit are one of the easiest things to change on a car if you are looking to add some performance and extra noise to your car. When you ask most people what their first mod was they will either say Airfilter or Exhaust

On the back of my Big INDUCTION Thread I thought Id have a go at Exhausts.

Before I start Id like to point out that different people have different views on what exhaust perform and how they perform. I claim to be No expert but hope this thread inlightens people who dont know where to begin.



Exhausts


Why do I need a Exhaust?

Ok, if you didnt have any exhaust system at all, exhaust gases would exit striaght from the head (where the air and fuel are burnt to make an explosion or combustion) and would soon fill the engine bay with harmfull gases not to mention the cabin of the car, the engine would run very poorly and would the car sound like a Tank! A exhaust system is made up of different componts that are all designed to take exhaust gases from your engine then filter them, reduce the noise from the explosions that create the gases and then throw them out the back of the car so that the process can repeat itself and the car can not just perform well but simply work in the first place.


What Parts make up a Exhaust system?

Right to understand how to improve something first you must understand how it is made up in the first place and how it works. Modern exhaust systems are made up of the following items:

1) The Exhaust Manifold - This is connected to the head and is feed from the cyclinders, normaly one per cyclinder.
2) The Cat - This is a new addition to a exhausts system all cars after 1994 have had to have a cat to pass an emission test at a MoT, it is a box with special materials to filter out harmfull elements in the exhaust gases.
3) Centre Section - Normally this links the Cat or Manifold to the Back Box and has a Silincer in it to reduce noise levels.
4) Back Box - This is the final part of the exhaust system and is the bit that is on show, it is basically a Siliencer to reduce the noise leve and has a tailpipe so the gases can escape to atmosphere.


Will a Exhaust increase Performance?

The RIGHT exhaust for your car Will improve performance, the WRONG exhaust or a BADLY Designed exhaust could lose you performance, a damaged or blowing exhaust will also effect the way the exhaust works and will lose performance. A performance or Sports exhaust normaly has less dense siliencers to improve gasflow there by improving the performance of a engine.

The factory exhaust was designed to meet many qualitys manily costs as all cars barring Super Super cars like a Zonda are made to a strick Budget to keep costs down, after all would you spend £20,000 on a Saxo? No, I didnt think so thats why all cars are built to a budget. A factory exhaust has to last out a warrenty, be quiet, be able to pass a emissions test at MoT time and still offer the right kind of performance to match the cars looks and claimed performance figures. Aftermarket Sports Exhausts are designed to be an improvement on a standard to mildly tuned car over the factory exhaust item.

IF you ever intend to look at Throttle Bodies, Turbochargers or Superchargers or anyother high power mods you should look to a more specailist exhaust system rather than a off the shelf system, as it wasnt designed for that much extra performance over standard.


What Type of Exhaust can I, do I buy?

Before I go into what kind of exhaust there are and what will and wont do in terms of improving performance, Id like to make one thing clear:

There is NO single One exhaust on the market today that is Proven to be the 'Best of the Best' for a Standard or Mildly Tuned Saxo. There are alot of good performing sports exhausts on the market, but I am not here to promote or steer you towards one brand.

Ok I shall start with the Back box and work my way towards the front.

Back Box

The Back box is a easy item to change and will have the greatest effect on changing the Looks of your car as the change of tailipipe size normally for something slightly bigger will really stand out over the factory back box. NO back box will effect performance in anyway at all as this is not where the biggest restrictions are to be found in your exhaust system. A sports back box can cost anywhere between £80-£150+ depending on type, brand and size




The Cat back System

The Cat back system is the next in the line of upgrading your factory system, this offers a real gain opposed to the back box as a decent sports exhaust should have better silincers to improve gaseflow and hence changing the exhaust note and performance. All 'off the shelf' Cat back systems are MoT legal as they keep the Cat in the system and shouldnt be so loud as to fail a MoT. A Cat back exhaust can cost anywhere between £150-£300+ depending on type, brand and materials.




Straight Through Centre Section

This is basically what it says it is, a centre section with the siliencer removed. This will do two things, greatly improve gasflow and increase noise levels. This is totally legal, as older cars may have only had a single siliencer but as laws and MoTs have changed over the years cars have had to be quiter, so most cars will come with at least one siliencer as well as the back box which is a siliencer. These can cost anywhere between £50-£100 depending on brand and material




Sports Cats and DeCats

When the Cat comes into question in terms of condition or performance you have two options, you can either by a 'High Flow Sports Cat' which has less cells in it there by increasing gaseflow but still giving filtration to harmfull elements hence still being MoT friendly or the other option a total DeCat. This is what it says it is, a DeCat - this is normally a straight pipe the same length as the cat and just replaces it altogther increasing gasflow considerably, but with out the Cat your car will Now be unable to pass an emissions test at a MoT station. Most people fit a decat and replace it with a cat before a MoT. There are manifolds with Sports Cats in them for certain VTR's but these are very expensive with most people choicing to avoid these simply because of high costs.

Sports Cats are very expensive at between £200-£300+ and although they offer a gain over a normal Cat they can not be compaired to a Decat, as the gains from a simple bit of pipe totally over out weigh the gains of the Sports Cat in terms of value for money but by doing this your car is not MoT passable. This choice is yours to make!

Sports Cat, you will be hard pressed to tell the difference between a regular Cat and a Sports Cat from the outside.



Sports exhaust with DeCat pipe, some systems come with a Decat or you can buy them on their own.




Manifold

As well as the Cat this is the most restrictive part of a cars exhaust system, some more than others its worth pointing out! By changing the way the gases exit the head and entre the exhaust its possible to change the way the car performs. Most cars have a two peice cast item from new which is heavy and restrive, by changing it to a Mild Steel or Stainless Steel item you can improve a cars performance. These are call 4 Branch as they have 1 pipe per cyclinder so on a inline 4 engine you have 4 branchs or pipes.

There are two tpes available a 4-2-1 which is 4 pipes that go into 2 pipes that go into 1 pipe which then connects to the exhaust system or Cat, there is also a 4-1 whcih is again 4 pipes but this time all 4 pipes go into 1 pipe which connects to the exhaust system or Cat. The two have a different effect on the way it improves the performance of the car whcih I will explain later. There are manifolds with Sports Cats in them for certain VTR's but these are very expensive with most people choicing to avoid these simply because of high costs.

This picture just happens to be a Mild Steel 4-2-1 manifold




Right, they are the different sections of a cars exhaust and a quick description of what they are and how they can improve a cars performance.
Because we are talking about exhaust systems and how they imrpove a cars performance, I have to mention Back Pressure. Now this is alittle complicated so bear with me.


Back Pressure

Back pressure is created in a exhaust system and the amounts of pressure effect performance. Bigger is not always better, too larger bore in a exhaust system and the gases in the system will lose pressure and the performance of your car will suffer, the same goes for if the bore is too small the gases will be restricted and again performance will suffer. Most aftermarket 'off the shelf' exhausts are the same size bore as the factory item so when buying a sports exhaust of anykind you shouldnt have to worry, but with Custom Exhausts becoming more and more common its improtant to get it right.

Custom Exhausts
With Custom exhaust, people sometimes make the mistake of fitting all straight pipework all the way back from either a Cat or Manifold straight to a Large Straight through design unoversal can, this has a effect of lowering the amounts of Back pressure in a ehaust system as the gases exit far too quickly and hence performance sufferes. Dual Exit systems also have this problem where there is more pipework than gases to fill it. Custom exhausts ie large open cans and alot of straight through large bore pipework should always be seen as a Styling mod rather than a outright performance mod. Another common mistake made by custom exhaust fabricators is they use very tight or sharp angles which having a effect on gasflow.

Custom Back boxes should be taken with a pinch of salt and the system should be well built otherwise performance could be lost.




System Layout

Back Pressue is also effected by the amount of boxes you have in a system, a Twin box system (Centre Box + Back Box) in theroy should make more back pressure than a Single box system (Just Back Box).

The theroy goes a Twin box system will improve low to mid range torque where as a Single box system will lower torque but give more mid to top end grunt. The same theroy goes for 4branch manifolds, a 4-2-1 should give more low to mid range gains where as a 4-1 should give more mid to high range gains.

Exhaust systems:
Twin Box - Low to Mid range gains
Single Box - Mid to High range gains

Manifolds:
4-2-1 - Low to Mid range gains
4-1 - Mid to High range gains


Different peole will tell you need one type or the other but I recommend either as most people remove their centre boxes for noise increases or ground cleance issues rather than performance gains.

Like I said there is No Single Best exhaust on the market today and all exhaust choices should be made by the owner of the car as it is alot of money to recommend a particular exhaust and then the owner doesnt like it.
I strongly agree with the point that a exhaust is as much a Styling mod as a Performance Mod.

Here is a short list of brand to look out for:

Ashley/Devil/Janspeed/OMP/Magnex/Mongoose/Piper/Remus/Scorpion/SuperSprint
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Old 15th June 2007, 12:24   #2
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You have way to much time on your hands mate lol
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Old 15th June 2007, 12:32   #3
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You also have the wrong grasp of "back pressure" as people like to call it.
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Old 15th June 2007, 12:39   #4
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lol I second saxoash there :d

backpressure in a real basic concept is to do with keeping the gas speed high. Fast gases leave the engine quicker so when the next revolution of the engine produces more these do not stall in the system. Too small stangles the engine but too big slows the gases too much as well.
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Old 15th June 2007, 12:43   #5
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so in theory then its best to have a 4-2-1 fanimold with a single box exhaust that way you get the best of both worlds, or do they cancel each other out and you are back where you started?
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Old 15th June 2007, 12:43   #6
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Kam,Correct. Its a misinterpretation of gas velocity. In an ideal world, you would eliminate back pressure as its a loss in the system. But as back pressure is directly related to gas velocity, then people think back pressure is good.

I did a fuck off big post on this on SSC before which made for informative, but very boring, reading. If anyone is interested in the principles of exhaust gases, check out books like 4-stroke Performance Tuning by A. Graham Bell or others.

Not up on my high horse, I just think its better when people get the right understanding of knowledge thats useful to share.

Blacksax, its much more complex than that, depends on other factors in teh engine, such as valve size, throats,cam profile. I used to spend hours modelling engines and exhausts but in the end, all that work was for a fairly standard engine.
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Old 15th June 2007, 12:47   #7
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So shall I remove the section on back pressure then ask a mod to set as a sticky?
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Old 15th June 2007, 12:49   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gabbastard View Post
Kam,Correct. Its a misinterpretation of gas velocity. In an ideal world, you would eliminate back pressure as its a loss in the system. But as back pressure is directly related to gas velocity, then people think back pressure is good.

I did a fuck off big post on this on SSC before which made for informative, but very boring, reading. If anyone is interested in the principles of exhaust gases, check out books like 4-stroke Performance Tuning by A. Graham Bell or others.

Not up on my high horse, I just think its better when people get the right understanding of knowledge thats useful to share.

Blacksax, its much more complex than that, depends on other factors in teh engine, such as valve size, throats,cam profile. I used to spend hours modelling engines and exhausts but in the end, all that work was for a fairly standard engine.

so really then no one actually knows whats the best performing exhaust for there car unless they have tried every single setup every which way and RR all of them at exactly the same air temps and everything else. i am getting really confused now
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Old 15th June 2007, 12:53   #9
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Originally Posted by blacksax1 View Post
so really then no one actually knows whats the best performing exhaust for there car unless they have tried every single setup every which way and RR all of them at exactly the same air temps and everything else. i am getting really confused now
Unfortunately, thats about the size of it LOL

Generally speaking you can hit a happy medium though, something that will suit the majority of engines. Typically a well-bent 2" exhaust built using good materials,with first box where the cat should be (under the car variety) will perform pretty well. The BTB is a 2.5" exhaust, which being brutally honest, is murder for the engine at lowish rpm.

VTS boy, dont worry about it, if you want Ill try and dig out my old wafflings about back pressure and stuff and you can include that. Its fairly easy to grasp, but is a bit boring LOL
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Old 15th June 2007, 12:57   #10
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VTS boy, dont worry about it, if you want Ill try and dig out my old wafflings about back pressure and stuff and you can include that. Its fairly easy to grasp, but is a bit boring LOL

Yer that would be a great help, its just everyother day somebody posts a Induction kit or Exhaust question, I thought if I could get as much clear simple information together about both as sticky's I could really help people out. 9 out of 10 times members just say 'Use the search button' but these days there is far to much rubbish floating about on here about both topics with alot of chat and no answers so yer all the hslp would be great.

Gona pm a Mod now to get this converted to a sticky like my Big Induction Thread
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Old 15th June 2007, 17:07   #11
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basic back pressure

Quote:
Originally Posted by adsayer
ya, the backpressure/flow, all that mumbo jumbo affects the engine characteristics due to the overlap with the intake and exhaust valves. basically without the overlap the newly formed exhaust gases wouldn't be able to fully exit the cylinder. sadly the overlap is optimised for a certain rpm range yada yada. adjusting the back pressure means the flow of gases is then optimised for another rpm range etc etc.

^^ in a basic nutshell.
increase back pressure causes peak torque at a lower rpm, decrease in back pressure causes peak torque to occur further up the rev range.

if you want an uber geek version then just ask and I'll put something together.
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Old 15th June 2007, 17:10   #12
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What would having no exhaust or manifold do to power?

I know that you can't due to noise and emissions just curious!
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Old 15th June 2007, 17:12   #13
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Originally Posted by Ste_1 View Post
What would having no exhaust or manifold do to power?

I know that you can't due to noise and emissions just curious!
raise the peak torque to well beyond anything a normal road engine could hope to achieve...

also I should mention that although peak torque is raised along the rpm by reducing back pressure, the max torque value actually lowers too... so in your example ste the engine would be developing very low torque.
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Old 15th June 2007, 17:16   #14
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actually whilst im in geek mode...

you could link the back pressure in with the induction side of things as that had an effect too.
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Old 27th June 2007, 13:02   #15
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cheers fella the bit about increase performance in rev range was really helpful
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Old 27th June 2007, 13:13   #16
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very nice information!
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Old 27th June 2007, 23:29   #17
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All good info imo
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Old 28th June 2007, 01:47   #18
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speaking to father sayer about this he also said that reducing the back pressure results in a cooler running engine... this links in with what i said about torque reducing with less back pressure, as more of the energy during combustion is used in warming the engine instead of providing movement.
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Old 28th June 2007, 08:10   #19
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i got raceland 4-2-1 then powerflow all the way baby!!
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Old 28th June 2007, 08:11   #20
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You have way to much time on your hands mate lol
lmfao
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2007 A3 / Phantom black / TDI / Sline / 170 BHP and 256 Torques
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