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Saxo Problems & Queries If you're having problems with your Saxo and you're after a bit of advice, check this forum out...

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Old 5th April 2010, 20:16   #121
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very interesting read good work mate
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Old 11th April 2010, 22:52   #122
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I get roughly 42mpg urban in a standard VTR, through all times of trafic with my job being a delivery driver
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Old 26th April 2010, 19:06   #123
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adsayer View Post
I've received a lot of questions with regard to how to improve MPG, so I've tried to document this as clearly as possible below

Engine
Often dodgy MPG is an early sign of things not right in the engine department, therefore it makes sense to keep the engine well maintained. Regular engine oil and air filter changes are an easy way to keep on top of the engine health and keep your fuel consumption thus running costs low

Please be aware of the fact that an engine will consume a LOT OF FUEL when starting the engine from cold - this is something that cannot be avoided but CAN BE minimised to ensure the cold start does not consume more fuel than absolutely necessary. Avoiding regular short journeys is the key factor but if unavoidable then try to time your start ups so that you make your short trip with the engine warm from a previous outing or something.

Don't let the engine just idle until heat is built up... Remember when you're idling your doing 0 MPG so it's costing you to cover absolutely no distance at all!

Similarly, do not race the engine to build up heat quicker. Best mpg is achieved by being extra concious of very light throttle use during warm up.

Accelerating & Torque
Torque is the pulling force you observe when accelerating i.e. when you're pushed into your seat. And, as you'll probably feel, this force varies throughout the engine rev range.

It is also a nice, if very rough, indication of where an engine is at it's highest efficiency. As a rough rule, where the engine develops peak torque the engine will be at its most efficient. Therefore attempt to maintain your revs around your peak torque figure when accelerating up through the gears - the exception is the VTS/GTi engine (1.6 16v) where the peak torque figure is stupidly high in the rev range and not really a sensible figure to reach for gradual acceleration routines - for VTS/GTi owners, aim for shifts around 3000-3500 rpm

Peak Torque:
1.0 – 3600rpm
1.1 – 3800rpm
1.4 – 3400rpm
1.5D – 2250rpm
1.6 – 3000rpm (Mk1)
1.6 – 3500rpm (Mk2)
1.6 16v – 5200rpm


Cruising
When cruising, for instance in 30, 40, 50, 60 and 70 mph limits, it's to be the highest possible gear without labouring the engine i.e. making it judder or generally straining it. On level roads 30mph in 5th shouldn't be a problem, if it's an uphill stretch of road you may need to downshift to 4th or even 3rd to main speed without labouring the engine - so choose your gear accordingly. If you're accelerating up to next speed limit, say when exiting a town/residential area, again try to VERY slowly increase the speed (which again should be achievable in 5th for most) to achieve best mpg.


Decelerating
When decelerating, avoid using the brakes, instead allow the car to slow naturally by using engine braking. This method is MORE efficient than taking the car out of gear and coasting - please be aware of this, additionally it's also potentially dangerous. During coasting, fuel is still injected into the engine to keep the engine idling. Whereas when the car is left in gear the momentum of the car maintains the engine revs and therefore far less fuel is used. NOTE, Saxo’s still inject some fuel into the engine under engine braking, unlike modern engine where virtually no fuel is injected.


MPG 'Boosters' - Super Fuels & Off-The-Shelf Fuel Additives
Fuel additives and Premium fuels are increasingly popular amongst Saxo Enthusiasts – some offer octane boosters or higher octane’s to boot, as well as specialised detergents that clean the fuel system and aid combustion. Premium fuels such as V-Power, BP Ultimate, Total Excellium etc, although offering fuel rated at 99RON as well as a host of additional chemicals aiding combustion and fuel system cleanliness, are an overkill for a Saxo as the Engine Management System cannot fully utilise the benefits on offer.

First things to be aware of are:

The standard Saxo ECU is capable of adjusting ignition timings up to 98RON (according to model documentation) meaning that whilst the full abilities of 99RON Premium Fuel can't be achieved, there is still a margin where the engine can make use of the benefits that come with using a higher octane fuel.
Note: Standard UK fuel Octane rating is 95RON

Engine's that typically benefit more from higher octane fuels are ones that are Naturally Aspirated with high compression ratio's, or engine that utilise force induction (Turbo/Super charged - although standard saxo's are not charged). Below is a compression ratio's for the various models:

1.0 – 9.4:1
1.1 – 9.7:1
1.4 – 10.2:1
1.5D – 23:1 - note that the information in this section regarding octane rating does not strictly apply to the 1.5 Diesel engine - Cetane rating take precedence
1.6 – 9.6:1 (Mk1)
1.6 – 9.6:1 (Mk2)
1.6 16v – 10.8:1

excluding the diesel engine variant, the 1.6 16v has the highest compression ratio which is close on bordering the limit at which standard forecourt fuel (95 RON) can be used without detonation (pinking) and as a result is most likely to respond well to the usage of Super Fuels. Consequently, if driven appropriately, modest gains in MPG can be achieved too. On the other hand, the 1.6 8v engine has a relatively low compression ratio and therefore is unlikely to respond as well to the use of super fuels.

Therefore for most owners it may be more cost effective to opt for periodic fuel additive treatments. Off-the-shelf Fuel Additive Treatments are more specific in cleaning the fuel system than purely to increase the RON number compared to Super Fuels, but are a good way of carrying out a periodic cleaning of deposits within the engine and fuel delivery system. A highlight of this method is the control over the dosage (i.e when a thorough clean is needed) and timing according to amount of miles driven for instance. You DO NOT need to put additives or premium fuel into the tank each and everytime - simply adding a 'treatment/premium' tank every few weeks is sufficient to maintain good fuel system health - in doing so improving the running of your engine and keep running costs to a minimum.

The Car
Weight is the enemy for just about everything related to car performance and dynamics, and the same can be said for MPG. Increased weight means the harder the engine has to work to achieve the same results as a car weighing less, which means more fuel consumed and more expense.

Therefore, an easy way to improve your MPG is to do simple things such as removing built up junk from the back and passenger footwells, anything useless in the boot like 6x9’s and subz, and getting rid of your fat mates will all help decrease the amount of fuel your car consumes – as a general rule for every extra person in the car the fuel consumption will increase, typically in the region of 1-2 MPG.

A tyre’s job is to generate friction be thankful it's there; but sadly friction is the enemy in decreasing the amount of fuel your car consumes, so wherever friction can be safely minimised, improvements in MPG can be made. Wider tyres will typically generate more friction as they tend to run softer compounds and lower tyre pressures, so if you're intent of getting bigger rims, limiting the width to a sensible figure is advisable.
Choice of tyre brand will heavily affect the levels of friction and the mpg you can achieve. Track type tyres (ie soft compound such as Toyo R888's) generate relatively high levels of grip/friction and therefore should be avoided if you want to save fuel! (incidentally saves the R888's for the track, they're crap for day to day British Weather). Many manufacturers create tyres specifically designed for low friction (such as Michelin Eco's), but this will come at the slight detriment of corning and braking grip - if you're not too concerned with whether you're the fastest young'n in the land to get to the nearest McRags then I wouldn't worry too much about the lower levels of grip.

Cheap (un)branded tyres are a false economy in many respects, usually to increase the levels of grip to sensible and safe levels (in the dry), the manufacturers forgo heavy investment in R&D and opt to make a softer compound tyre - whilst from a safety view, in the dry this is good, tyre wear is usually high, MPG is high and in wet weather conditions can give rise to unpredictable grip levels - as a result the Cost per Mile of running a cheap tyre is likely to exceed that of running a premium branded tyre

Don't ever purchase cheap tyres... they're a false economy and you'll be an idiot for buying them!

Regardless of tyre choice, make sure you're getting most of them by using the correct or selectively choosing your own tyre pressures, check them regularly, when do it when cold and make adjustments if necessary. Below is a list of the recommend tyre pressure for various models

165/65R14 (i.e base models and 1.4’s) – 2.2bar/32PSI – Front, 2.0bar/29PSI - Rear
185/55R14 (VTR and early VTS models) – 2.5bar/36PSI – Front, 2.2bar/32PSI – Rear
195/45R15 (VTS and common aftermarket alloy size) – 2.3bar/33PSI – Front, 2.0bar/29PSI – Rear


If you have a Sub Woofer system in the boot I suggest increasing the rear pressures by 0.1 - 0.2bar

Weather
Cold air is favoured for the performance enthusiast but surprisingly, cold weather affects the engine in ways will usually harm MPG. The engine will remain colder for longer, so on early morning start ups the MPG can be pretty terrible. Once at operating temperature a larger proportion of the energy from the combustion will be used to maintain the engine temperature, thus less useful energy is used to move the car. So don't worry too much if your fuel consumption increases noticeably during the winter months

Humidity to certain extent is good for MPG as water vapour in the cylinder will turn to steam during combustion as well as cooling the charge, effectively retarding the ignition, causing a slight (and probably unnoticeable) increasing in power. So less throttle is needed and and consequently less fuel needs to be injected.


Improving MPG
Easy
The easiest way to improve your MPG is to adjust driving style. Accelerating hard, using the upper revs and driving above 80mph will consume a lot of fuel and make you look a tit. Instead, accelerate gently, avoid heavy braking and use the highest gear as you sensibly can at cruise. If on motorway try to stick to 70 and hold your speed. If you choose to drive at 75mph, try to stay at 75mph. Fluctuating the speed, i.e racing some other idiot on the road or overtaking another car for no reason, will harm MPG. With good anticipation skills, unless of course you hit a traffic jam, you should never need to drastically reduce or increase your speed on a motorway.
Check tyre condition and pressure
Remove any junk from the car.

Moderate
Further improvements in driving style are:
Begin to ‘Read the Road’. This means look far ahead, predict what will happen and determine whether you’ll have to modify your speed to suit the conditions. With the extra time you've got to adjust your speed, you can make the changes much more gradually and therefore increase your changes of improving your MPG. For example there are traffic lights further up the road that have been on green for while, it makes sense that they’ll probably go red as you approach or before you have time to go past them, so sense would suggest to begin to gradually ease off the accelerator pedal and let the car slow down, the less brake the better. NOTE: this also forms part of the Advanced Driving Course.

If weather conditions are in your favour, you can increase the pressure in the tyres by up to 0.2bar. This will 'stiffen' the tyre slightly creating a reduced contact patch and so reducing friction, thus aiding MPG, although be warned your grip will lessen.

Check and if necessary replace your engine oil with a Fully Synthetic derivative. Similarly check and replace if necessary the air filter.

MPG Whore
The driving style is further improved. Basically as slow acceleration and deceleration as safely possible without being a prat to other road users. When cruising on A-roads and Motorways stick to as slow as you can go (again without being a pain to others), a sensible guide figure would be around 55 mph which is a good balance between getting to a destination and achieving good mpg.

On motorways slipstreaming can be implemented. As a car/lorry progresses along a road, it effectively pushes air out of it's way and creates a wake behind it, which if you're sufficiently close, allows your car to maintain it's speed with much less effort than previously required. NOTE this can be bloody dangerous, so concentration of the highest order is required and I'm will not accept blame should you:
a) rear end a car/lorry
b) the police arrest your ass for 'dangerous driving' or similar offences

When carrying out such a driving technique, it's best to choose a lorry as their speed fluctuation is much less that a normal car and the drivers are much more used to having a row of slow moving cars pacing behind them doing the same thing as you are.

Further improvements to your 'Reading the road' technique, if you see a incline approaching, begin to gradually accelerate by rough 10 mph, then once on the incline allow the car to slow back to your cruising speed as you reach the top. When going down hill aim to maintain cruise speed rather than speed up.

Electronics – turn everything you can live without, radio, heaters, lights (if safe to do so). The alternator, which provides power to engine and it's ancillaries, runs off the engine and therefore if more power is required to supply electric to all your devices that are on, then the alternator will demand more of the engine.

Remove anything unusable/unneeded from the car, rear seats, spare tyres etc

If you're willing, have the aerial removed from the vehicle and the bodywork where it used to be flushed - the aerial is a major sore point for aerodynamics so remove it if you can.

Example: One of my runs

From a 45 litre tank with what I estimate to be around 2 litres left...


That was from NA to Brighton and back again (going a slightly weird route).

I'm guessing that was around 78-80MPG. I'm afraid it's not my best run, but sadly the weather wasn't on my side. However it give you an idea of what is achievable if you're prepared to apply a few simple tips to your driving and condition of your car/engine.



Questions:

‘I’ve just changed tyres and my MPG has dropped’
Don't panic, it's not a major concern...!
See here:-
http://www.saxperience.com/forum/sho...ight=tyres+mpg

Will Premium fuels such as V-Power and BP ultimate aid MPG?’
In all likelihood yes, but it's marginal and ultimately depends on your engine and your driving style. As discussed above, some engines are more likely to respond better than others. In addition the cost of purchasing a premium fuel may outweigh the benefit of slightly improved mpg.

'My MPG has just (or progressively) gone crud'
First of all, a cold weather spell may have a nasty effect on MPG and is usually the biggest culprit, so always ensure whether, in particular if you're on a motorway that wind direction and speed is not to blame. Check your tyres haven't deflated excessively, check your air filter. Check what modifications have recently added been added to the car or engine. Has your driving style or regular drive changed?

'Does an induction kit increase MPG?'
Because highest mpg is attained when using part throttle the flow of air through the engine is relatively very low anyway... as a result an induction kit is unlikely to affect the mpg adversely at part throttle and/or light loads... Induction kits are (in theory) suppose to increase the flow of air into the engine at wide and wide open throttle. As a result the fuel has to be increased to match the air/fuel mixture. So if you boot it it'll in theory improve performance - but hurt your MPG.

So ultimately it depends how you behave.

Make sure you clean your air filter regularly too!

Caution with 'Open' style induction kits is needed, there is a tendency for hot air from the engine bay to be induced into the engine, the local hot air has a lower density than it's cooler equivalent outside the engine bay. This additional heat has the consequence of effectively advancing the ignition of the fuel and so reducing engine torque. So if you're at cruise you'll have to open the throttle further to maintain your speed than would otherwise be necessary, which would increase the load on the engine and likely to cause the ECU to respond by putting extra fuel (running slightly richer) and reducing fuel economy.

Below the official MPG figures for saxo models organised into three scenario's... These are good reference values for you to aim for if you're wanting to improve your mpg figures or tell if there may be a problem with your car.

Typical MPG's for Saxo Models:

1.0
Town driving - 34MPG
Mixture driving - 45.6MPG
Motorway driving - 55.4MPG

1.1
Town driving - 32.8MPG
Mixture driving - 43.5MPG
Motorway driving - 53.3MPG

1.4 (manual)
Town driving - 32.1MPG
Mixture driving - 43.5MPG
Motorway driving - 54.3MPG

1.4 (automatic)
Town driving - 26.9MPG
Mixture driving - 35.8MPG
Motorway driving - 44.1MPG

1.5D
Town driving - 40.9MPG
Mixture driving - 53.3MPG
Motorway driving - 65.7MPG

1.6 Mk1
Town driving - 28.5MPG
Mixture driving - 38.7MPG
Motorway driving - 48.7MPG

1.6 Mk2
Town driving - 32.1MPG
Mixture driving - 42.1MPG
Motorway driving - 51.4MPG

1.6 16v
Town driving - 24.8MPG
Mixture driving - 34.9MPG
Motorway driving - 44.8MPG

Hope this helps... please give feedback if you have any questions, comments or criticisms

(C) Adsayer
AMAZED at this mate. did a quick stint to bristol and back and roughly got 55MPG out of my 1.1i. good stuff (Y) (was keeping it steady at like 50/60 Mph though)
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Old 17th May 2010, 20:08   #124
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Great thread... I record all my fillups(litres, price and miles on clock) now i can work out my mpg over certaing dates and my total average mpg.. 1.1 litre guving me 48mpg average over the last year
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Old 24th May 2010, 11:54   #125
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really usefull thread ta
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Old 29th May 2010, 10:21   #126
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Great guide mate have you heard off hho generators.
There's a diy kit you can make quite simply that converts your car into a hybrid thus partly running on water (not literally in the tank don't try it you're car will DIE) apparently they can increase milage by 50%
I'm making one next week hopefully if it works I'll post a guide
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Old 29th May 2010, 10:23   #127
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http://www.ehow.com/i/#article_2262517
how to make hho generator to slash your mpg
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Old 30th June 2010, 00:42   #128
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Quote:
am currently getting 34 mpg out of my mk2 vtr.... but thats with short journeys, town driving, heavy foot... i tired the sensible option for a while and seen 39 mpg at my highest with again short journeys etc
Same here. Got MK2 vtr and got around 49mpg from some sensible town driving. Averaging around 34 normally being a bit of a cock. lol.
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Old 12th July 2010, 21:30   #129
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just read that bit on tyre pressure- 36psi for 185/55 14's
Been to 4 major tyre garages and they all said the same thing. DON'T DO IT!!
The guy said to put 36psi in is just crazy,and that theres no need for it. Said to put in 31 front & rear
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Old 12th July 2010, 23:07   #130
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nappert View Post
just read that bit on tyre pressure- 36psi for 185/55 14's
Been to 4 major tyre garages and they all said the same thing. DON'T DO IT!!
The guy said to put 36psi in is just crazy,and that theres no need for it. Said to put in 31 front & rear
I've had garages tell me that sticking a lower profile tyre on my sisters van wouldn't adjust the speed of the vehicle... But anyway, that is their choice I suppose to put 31 psi, my garage stick in a set value but then expect to change them to my preferred values. Don't shoot the messenger, I was giving the recommended values from Citroen themselves. But I'm going to DISAGREE 100% with what you've posted.

If the garage have told you to put 31 in front and rear then I'd really suggest looking at another garage, since the front is much heavier than the rear on a saxo, and therefore the fronts need additional pressure to counter the additional mass pushing down on the tyre - else you'll have increased wear on the front.
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Old 25th July 2010, 19:10   #131
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good info thanks
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Old 26th August 2010, 23:54   #132
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HaHa I put neaerly Full tank in £37.90

and 1/2 way used but got 203 Miles out of it! :o Outstanding!
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Old 31st August 2010, 09:59   #133
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Just come back from my grans.
Drive a Saxo VTS with Newman PH3 Cams
Filled up with 20 litres of Shell Optimax, over 190 miles I worked out I averaged 42mpg.

This is sticking to the 70mph speed limit.
It's slightly better on petrol than my 106 GTI was.
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Old 11th October 2010, 12:29   #134
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aly View Post
Just come back from my grans.
Drive a Saxo VTS with Newman PH3 Cams
Filled up with 20 litres of Shell Optimax, over 190 miles I worked out I averaged 42mpg.

This is sticking to the 70mph speed limit.
It's slightly better on petrol than my 106 GTI was.
It'll be slightly lighter perhaps ?
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Old 21st October 2010, 18:19   #135
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very usefull info, thanks!
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Old 25th November 2010, 13:33   #136
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good read thanks
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Old 18th December 2010, 13:01   #137
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Most i've had out of the VTS is 42mpg, and i definitly have a lead foot
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Old 18th December 2010, 13:08   #138
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adsayer View Post
I've had garages tell me that sticking a lower profile tyre on my sisters van wouldn't adjust the speed of the vehicle... But anyway, that is their choice I suppose to put 31 psi, my garage stick in a set value but then expect to change them to my preferred values. Don't shoot the messenger, I was giving the recommended values from Citroen themselves. But I'm going to DISAGREE 100% with what you've posted.

If the garage have told you to put 31 in front and rear then I'd really suggest looking at another garage, since the front is much heavier than the rear on a saxo, and therefore the fronts need additional pressure to counter the additional mass pushing down on the tyre - else you'll have increased wear on the front.
Seconded. 31psi in the fronts must feel horrible, let alone be torturing your tyres


Also, I averaged 47mpg this last tank full on mostly combined (A, B and town road) commutes. 386 miles between fillups felt good

Last edited by Gordon; 18th December 2010 at 13:11.
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Old 18th January 2011, 11:33   #139
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Adsayer, when you did this...what model did you drive? The Diesel?
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"what the fuck are you doing?" he said "have you seen a guy with a rubber dingy?" i was like "What? then he just belted off at a billion miles per hour!!!
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Old 27th January 2011, 00:43   #140
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Quote:
Originally Posted by _-john-_ View Post
Adsayer, when you did this...what model did you drive? The Diesel?
I should think so with it only revving too 6k! And if he got that mpg out of a VTS his name should be changed from Adsayer, to God.

This is such a great thread, particularly in the current climate of ridiculous Petrol Prices. Being wary of when to change gear at the correct rev's (I was not completely 'eco-ing' it), I managed to get 47.3 MPG with a mixture of a town/motorway driving (mainly town), thats with a random misfire code too!
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