internal fuel lines

[Alexp]

Anyone done this, Thinking of running some braided lines but not sure if you can get the push fit adaptors so i can still use std fuel rail etc.

[swampy]

Any that you run internaly mustbe of the multi layer type hose that runs normaly a ptfe lining.
If you dont use this sort fumes can pass through the line and in to the cabin.
The draw back of this type of hose is that it needs screw on connections to get a good seal.
I can get ends to weld on to the fuel rail but not sure if it could be done on a saxo rail or pump

[axsaxoman]

simpler and cheaper option is to ro run copper tubing through the car up the sill panel and do all connections under bonnet at front and on top of tank at rear and just use good fuel hose+ proper clips .
you can make a very neat job if you take your time and no smells

[wolf_gsxr]

By copper tubing do you mean brake pipe or fuel specific stuff?

[axsaxoman]

central heating tubing 10mm + 8mm return
used to be about £20 for a 25ft roll

[Alexp]

Is copper ok to use for fuel lines, no contamination?

[Mathias]

using some sytec 8mm rubber tubing with cotton overbraid - 10 metres for £30

[axsaxoman]

Originally Posted by Mathias

using some sytec 8mm rubber tubing with cotton overbraid - 10 metres for £30

you have no mechanical protection what so ever using rubber type hose ,
certainly it would not class as fire proof and would not pass scrutinering test for any form of motorsport.
an electical short next to the rubber pipe or indeed the braided type hose and it would burn through --definately would class as a death wish as far as I am concerned
you flatten a copper pipe with a hammer and it won,t leak --try that on you braided or rubber piping,then try heating both of them and see what happens
the braiding will just get hot and burn a hole in the nylon or rubber liner

[Mathias]

why do you never see copper being used for fuel lines then?

unless you can point me in the direction (with pictures or a link?)

[swampy]

And why are all fia spec fuel sampling rigs made from multi layer braided hose?
And ive never heard of domestic copper pipe of 8 or 10mm

and to be fair if you have gone to the expense and time to fit internal fuel pipes you have probably alterd the wiring loom and both would be nice and securely held in place by clips with all the wires nicely wrapped or shrink wrapped.

[axsaxoman]

fuel sampling rig?
my guess it is because it is a mobile unit and its easier to use flexible hosing plus its highly unlikely to be in an accident + there are no people trapped in next to it plus there is always a man with a fire extingusher at hand when they are refuelling f1 cars .
nearly every car you see with braided lines would not pass proper crutineering as they are all visible and mechanical seperation of the fuel system from the passenger compartment .
read the blue book and you will see it says that the passenger compartment should be fire proofed and sealed with intumescant putty where required
never seen anybody asking what this is or where they can obtain it from .
braided hoses are used mainly for blingand as has already been posted only work if all ends are of the swaged type with screw on fittings .
you will never see ay fuel lines visible in any REAL professional built competion car ,they may use braided ,but there will also have a mechanical protection of the fuel system as well .
fuel tanks in boot are a good example ,you must have another sealed container around the tank and if filled from boot it must have another neck with a sealed cap on that you remove to get to the actual filler cap --read the fire regs boys--always been the same for last 40 years

[swampy]

A fuel sampling rig is now mandatory in most forms of motor sport.its fitted in to the fuel lines so random samples of fuel can be taken from the car for testing to ensure it is of the correct grade etc.
Have you actualy read the blue book? As that states fuel lines should be stainless over braided or rigid metal.
The likes of goodridge sell aluminium pipe but the ends aint cheap

[axsaxoman]

Ok that sort of fuel sampling rig --yes and that why it uses flexible type hosing ,but again it will be inside a fire proof container if it is inside the passenager compartment .

and how does copper vary from the term" rigid metal"
No I have not read the latest version of the blue book ,but the bottom line is that all fuel lines must be mechanically protected from damage + fire proofed which is why running flexible braided hosing through the car is not permissable unless it is enclosed i+ sealed to be vapour proof by aother encloseure around the hosing .
use alluminium tubing if you wish with compression fittings ,aero spec quaity if you want to waste money .
you could always ask yourself why aircraft makers use solid alluminium tubing for all long fel lines --cos its light = cheap and is fit for purpose
but what I have suggested as a cheap alternative routed correctly compiles with all regs and is way cheaper and fit for purpose andf easy for most to do using economically priced components.
fuel pumps +swirl pots etc mounted in the boot and exposed are Illegal and dangerous.
If the car has a boot and it is fire proofed between it and the passenger compartment that ok ,providing it is vented to the outside


braide hosing is fine if using swaged ends and is used in an aplication where flexibility is required ,but a waste of money in most cases and fitted for "bling".

the number of turbo cars you see with braided oil supply hoses running very close to hot things --people thinking that the braiding is heat proof --unfiortunately the ptfe liner is not .
thats why std turbo applications ,in the main ,use solid metal piping for oil and water supplies close to turbo and then change to flexible away from the heat source

Can I give you a piccie of this set-up --no cos you cannot see it when fitted correctly as its hidden under sill plates which replace the original carpet etc to give the seond layer of mechanical protection required and all connections are outside the passenger compartment

[Mathias]

The amount of cars using fuel pumps and swirl pot systems mounted on the rear bench or boot floor with braided or non 'rigid metal or copper for that matter' is massive?!

These setups are seen regularly on tracks from what I've seen so in my eyes I'm happy to do the same

[swampy]

i have NEVER seen any car be it race or track car using copper pipes for its fuel lines!!!

an extract from the blue book

5.13.1. Have any fuel lines passing through the
driver/passenger compartment protected and, if nonmetallic,
to be internally or externally metal braided
hydraulic pressure hose or fuel lines complying with
FIA specifications.

yes the hoses have to be protected and yes you can use metal pipes but ive never seen or heard of anyone using copper, for one you need special tools to bend it, or would you solder bends on as if your plumbing up your central heating system?, you then have an issue of joing it up to the fuel rails and pumps, which would require a short length of hose held in place on each side by a jubilee clip.
which then has the possibility of two places of leakage, where as braided lines will either have a compression fit on one end or be swaged, then the other conenctor will either be a good quality worm drive or a screw on connector.

i find it very strange you say no one use braided hose, when the likes of goodridge, earls and EXACT supply the stuff and the fittings to go with it and its available from loads of on line suppliers who dont just supply track day people who want things to look good but also people that compete and so have to have the correct items.

as for the fire proof putty, that has nothing at all to do with fuel or brake lines, that is used to seal up any holes in the bulk head so un the unfortuante instance of a fire it prevents smoke / flames from entering the cabin.

[axsaxoman]

[quote=swampy;5614180]i have NEVER seen any car be it race or track car using copper pipes for its fuel lines!!!

an extract from the blue book

5.13.1. Have any fuel lines passing through the
driver/passenger compartment protected and, if nonmetallic,
to be internally or externally metal braided
hydraulic pressure hose or fuel lines complying with
FIA specifications.
as usual you only quote part of the regs covering fuel systems,see the next line also
5-13-2
these may only be joined by screwed sealing joints or manufacturers approved joints


yes the hoses have to be protected and yes you can use metal pipes but ive never seen or heard of anyone using copper, for one you need special tools to bend it, or would you solder bends on as if your plumbing up your central heating system?, you then have an issue of joing it up to the fuel rails and pumps, which would require a short length of hose held in place on each side by a jubilee clip.
which then has the possibility of two places of leakage, where as braided lines will either have a compression fit on one end or be swaged, then the other conenctor will either be a good quality worm drive or a screw on connector.
[I]as I always use the "cobra" clips which are used on the std car for fuel ines then I comply not only to the spirit but to the letter of the rules --use of braided hoses with jubilee clip at one end as you suggest is neither good nor legal ,there are fittings that are screw on with a hose tail that can be secured with correct type of self tensioning clip like the cobra clip[/I]

I would not suggest you make right angle bends by bending tubing as that will restrict flow and a smooth bend is better anywa ,but if you must then you would use compression fittings as required by the regs --not solder and plumbing fittings .if you must make sharp bends then a £4 pipe bender rom ebay will do the job

I have used copper or alloy or steel for fuel lines for 40 years and never had a problem or a failure by scrutineering ,your grasp of the regs just shows how little you really know and the fact you have not seen solid fuel lines is of no suprise especially as you don,t know what the correct way to terminate a fuel line if you need to go to rubber hose for some reason.

the other reg you carefully omit is regarding fuel systems in general
14-1-2
every effort should be made to isolate fuel tank and pipes from the driver and passenger compartment

the way I suggest accomplies all the requirements ,but in a more economical manner


i find it very strange you say no one use braided hose, when the likes of goodridge, earls and EXACT supply the stuff and the fittings to go with it and its available from loads of on line suppliers who dont just supply track day people who want things to look good but also people that compete and so have to have the correct items.

what I said was NO professional team would use braided hoses inside the car ,for the reasons given above ,
as for the suppliers of braided hose fittings --they just want to make money from people who are either to lazy to do it right or just do not understand that no jubilee clip will ever make a ptfe lining secure and vapour tight --no jubilee clipis ever truly round when tightend due to the way it made
hence the regulation regarding screw type fittings

as for the fire proof putty, that has nothing at all to do with fuel or brake lines, that is used to seal up any holes in the bulk head so un the unfortuante instance of a fire it prevents smoke / flames from entering the cabin.
it is as much about not allowing flamble or burning fluids into the divers part of the car as just smoke
/quote]

[swampy]

You would not get a good satisfactory bend in cooper pipe of the diameter you suggest with a tool that costs four quid off ebay.
I know all about how fuel hose should be connectd up and thats why i have turnd down countless forum users who have requestd if i can sell it them.
I was at work when skimming the msa on line (more concernd about audi tech data on the new v8 that turns in to a v4 when not under load).
I have seen plenty of race and rally cars that run with braided lines but never seen one with copper tubing (smallest i can find this is 15mm).
Having grown up in a family of national car racing champions i have grown up working on, building , repairing and racing cars i have plenty of experiance in it.

From looking at your posts and talking to others you like to think you know everything and what you say is the only way to do things but....

[axsaxoman]

which then has the possibility of two places of leakage, where as braided lines will either have a compression fit on one end or be swaged, then the other conenctor will either be a good quality worm drive or a screw on connector.

you can,t have it both ways ,you protest to me that you only use correct methods and in your post you talk about using worm drive or jubilee clips

these postings started by me simply suggestng that you could save a lot of money by using solid -copper tubing and at same time get a proper job with none of the safety issues of poorly fitted braided piping .

it has only escalated by yoposters attempts to discredit what i am saying ,even though i have backed up everything I say

you accuse me of being a know it all

how can me suggesting a more economical option, that is inherrantly safer as well, be looked upon as anything than being helpful .

I would say it is other other way round .
the know it alls are those who suddenly get upset by having the faults in their ways pointed out instead of just taking on board useful imformation and changing their ways.

we talking about peoples safety here .

I have given you all the options to make a good installation using solid piping ,which is safer as well as being cheaper in parts cost --use seamless steel piping or alloy or copper there is no difference in the performance of any of them --just cost and ease of working .

I checked on price of top spec plastic coated alloy fuel ine --not expensive £4.28per metre--so not expensive anyway + copper is alot cheaper than that

[Matt.S2]

Just out of interest (as I don't want to start another massive argument/debate), could someone point me in the right direction of where I can source fuel lines and all fixings?

I have been reading up on several people's progress threads but not much information regarding what size's and where to get from could be found.. Any info would be great.

Cheers.

[Alexp]

Think this is the right link, http://stores.ebay.co.uk/Torques-U-K?_rdc=1
Very popular on 106 reg.