Sump baffle... - Page 5 - Saxperience

deano_123 · 6th April 2013, 11:55

never had an issue my constella baffle

the majority were put off the pugsport baffle as it connects to the crank if i remember correctly

jpsaxo · 6th April 2013, 11:56

Not really fit and forget when there's always the *chance* there could be a problem with the seal - if it's fitted with the sealant that is

Ross - Sandys posting his own experiences with a product

AlexB^p · 6th April 2013, 11:58

IF josh
And if you do yout ignoring the manufacturers instructions

Its like fitting a pugsport to your crank bolts and guessing the torque on the bolts....

jpsaxo · 6th April 2013, 12:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by AlexB

IF josh
And if you do yout ignoring the manufacturers instructions

Its like fitting a pugsport to your crank bolts and guessing the torque on the bolts....

Yup yup... another advantage of the pugsport is that you don't need to re-seal or buy a new seal every time the sump comes off

piggy123 · 6th April 2013, 15:47

I'll be going pugsport for sure

AlexB^p · 6th April 2013, 15:49

Dont need to buy a new gasket with constellas if you arent a ham fisted idiot
Ive had my sump off since to do a full oil change lol

And pugsports use sealant which kills engines....

jpsaxo · 6th April 2013, 20:01

Mine doesn't use any form of sealent, it's just the metal baffle...

AlexB^p · 6th April 2013, 20:09

Still seal the sump onto the block josh
Thats where the excess sealant sandy refers too comes from piling loads on there

Pugsport could do exactly the same
Hell standard could do the same

e8_pqck · 6th April 2013, 21:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by jpsaxo

Mine doesn't use any form of sealent, it's just the metal baffle...

How is that josh? Have the mating surfaces been machined or something?

AlexB^p · 6th April 2013, 21:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by e8_pqck

How is that josh? Have the mating surfaces been machined or something?

It bolts internally so no silicon is needed to seal it any other place than standard round the sump

But still if your a bit happy with it for that you can introduce issues of it falling away and blocking the pickup

I will ALLWAYS use the 1.5D gaskets even on a stock sump just to play safe

Sandy309 · 7th April 2013, 06:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ross

If I didn't fit a Peugeot sport one correctly I'd not then post up a thread slagging off Peugeot sport Sandy - and I'm a little surprised to see you do that to Constella to be honest.

I'm a little surprised Ross that you and Alex are using this as a stick to beat me with! I would hope you'd know that I'm very particular about product quality and there are alot of products that are widely used on this forum, that won't be found in my competition engines, because of my reservations or problems I've seen, that better products don't give. What I've done is illustrate issues that can occur with that kit and why I believe the PS kit is worth the price.
Maybe you think my standards are unreasonably high or that I'm arrogant about it, but in the work that I do, to achieve the level of performance and reliability that's expected of me, I have to be that way. It may be overkill for fast road/trackday motors, but in serious competition engines, it's what sets the best apart from the norm.

AlexB^p · 7th April 2013, 09:52

Im not beating you with the info like a stick
Or at least noy intending too

Im just trying to put across that the issue you found that actually caused the engine failiure is due to the mongole who fitted it directly ignoring constellas instructions to fit it and that the same issue can be caused if your too liberal with that shit on a standard sump (meaning any time the sump has been sealed it could happen) im not saying it will with an engine youve built but whats to stop anyone with no mechanical nowledge whipping a sump off for some reason and just plastering far too much on

The weld failing i have only seen that one you pictured like it
But if someone moronic has fitted it whos to say they didnt break them trying to fit it without removing the pump or something like that

Im just trying to put across that one failiure on a product where there are a fair few out there wont put me off
Especially with no more info that "i took it apart to find this" as you have no idea if it was fitted damaged or anyrhing

Ross^p · 7th April 2013, 10:14

I can't really add to Alex's comments much sandy. I have no personal gain from defending Constellas baffle but I stand by my case that in an engine build like mine, deep into 5 figures, and heading towards 300bhp per litre, "scrimping" on an engine part isn't really an option and I'd like to think I've made smart choices.

My engine builder (who's built some of the most reliable huge horsepower engines in Europe) rates it.

If you're opinion differs after seeing that one example, that's up to you. But with respect (sincerely, with respect) I value your opinion. But I value my own engine builders also.

106maxi · 7th April 2013, 17:27

Not a risk I'd be willing to take.
Pug Sport in the last engine, Pug Sport in the next engine.

Sandy309 · 7th April 2013, 17:39

Sorry Alex, but this is getting a bit confused! The engine I posted pics of, had not failed, but was certainly close to it. The weld breaks look to me like fatigue in the brittle metal around the weld, a problem I had anticipated when I first saw the design (you can see my much earlier comments in that linked thread). TIG welds or forming the tags from the flange section instead, ideally with a reinforcing fold, would probably prevent that happening.

The engine failure I mentioned was a separate case, a circuit racer friend of mine who had the rubber seal fall apart and pieces of it blocked the pick up, causing oil starvation, quickly resulting in rod failure (PEC rods) and virtual total engine destruction.

I prefer sealant to a gasket on the sump, it tends to last better if you use the right stuff and apply it judiciously. The Loctite formulation I use goes off pretty quick, only really enough time to bolt down the sump pan itself, if you had to apply it to two sides of the baffle, fit the oil pump and then fit the sump (without any oily finger touches!), you'd struggle.

I also don't like the welded sump method usually seen on Longman engines (and some other specialist engines I've had in), the blind section is near impossible to completely clean of old oil and debris during a rebuild, due to lack of access. There is another Peugeot Sport baffle kit I've seen on some of these engines, that has a sandwich plate, windage tray bolted to the mains and welded baffles in the pan, that's just about the worst of all the designs in one, but looks like it would run inverted!

Steph_at_constella · 7th April 2013, 18:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sandy309

Sorry Alex, but this is getting a bit confused! The engine I posted pics of, had not failed, but was certainly close to it. The weld breaks look to me like fatigue in the brittle metal around the weld, a problem I had anticipated when I first saw the design (you can see my much earlier comments in that linked thread). TIG welds or forming the tags from the flange section instead, ideally with a reinforcing fold, would probably prevent that happening.

The engine failure I mentioned was a separate case, a circuit racer friend of mine who had the rubber seal fall apart and pieces of it blocked the pick up, causing oil starvation, quickly resulting in rod failure (PEC rods) and virtual total engine destruction.

I prefer sealant to a gasket on the sump, it tends to last better if you use the right stuff and apply it judiciously. The Loctite formulation I use goes off pretty quick, only really enough time to bolt down the sump pan itself, if you had to apply it to two sides of the baffle, fit the oil pump and then fit the sump (without any oily finger touches!), you'd struggle.

I also don't like the welded sump method usually seen on Longman engines (and some other specialist engines I've had in), the blind section is near impossible to completely clean of old oil and debris during a rebuild, due to lack of access. There is another Peugeot Sport baffle kit I've seen on some of these engines, that has a sandwich plate, windage tray bolted to the mains and welded baffles in the pan, that's just about the worst of all the designs in one, but looks like it would run inverted!

All due respect sandy, but the customer was happy to run another of our baffles in his engine so can't be that awful can it? There is no proof that it was that, as his engine was heavily modified, but 1 out of over 100 a year over 5/6 years? Statistics say that it was a one off.

The rubber seal provided with the pug sport baffle, has been shown to deteriorate over time and it is often chosen to not fit it iirc. We no longer supply this seal. As said to you on your previous occasions to make snide comments about our quality, if you have a suggestion for improvements, please call us, rob would be happy to listen as he has respect for your work and skills.

The welds breaking on that baffle is the first we have heard when you posted those images. As said above, if we don't know there is a problem we can't fix it.

AlexB^p · 7th April 2013, 18:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sandy309

Sorry Alex, but this is getting a bit confused! The engine I posted pics of, had not failed, but was certainly close to it. The weld breaks look to me like fatigue in the brittle metal around the weld, a problem I had anticipated when I first saw the design (you can see my much earlier comments in that linked thread).

When i hit the link on my phone i just get a single reply come up not a thread

Im just seeing the side i can of things having the info i have as an engineer and machinist i can understand quite well but im no engine guru or expert at all
Hell im worried im gunna fuck up sorting out end float on an engine lol

But i cant see any issues personally with the sheer numbers of the constella out there if any other sumps were produced in similar numbers failiures would happen its not a pleasany invironment (heat vibrations ect) so metal fatigue will happen in some cases with most designs

Sandy309 · 7th April 2013, 19:17

The statistics can be read however you want really, I only have first hand of two engines with the kit and not a good hit ratio! I seriously doubt there are more Constella kits than PS out there, the ratio in the competitions engines I've seen is heavily towards PS kits.

I can't say all I know or think here; it would just sound like I'm bitching and I think all the information needed is up for people to see and accept or reject as they see fit. I don't like making enemies and Steph if you'd taken my original (106RR), utterly practical comments as they were intended and not opened with a weak (let's face it, heavily loaded) joke about my workmanship; I might have been a bit more inclined towards diplomacy, when I found the problems.

AlexB^p · 7th April 2013, 19:31

The ps kits are in lots of engines in racing
But race teams tend to not publish failiures as far as i know a lot try and hide them from what ive seen

I cant personally see any problem with the constella if its fitted how they say too as i say im not as experienced as you in this but i like to hope i understand enough to know
Ive removed a sump i have seen that looks genuinely ropey lol that was done many years ago though and no point slating companies as they cant front their side of thing

I am more concerend by the quality of the builder of my engines work than by the sump failing lol i allways had my doubts and tbh now its looking like a bottom end rebuilds needed after about 9k mileage....

I know your work is high quality but robs isnt shabby either lol

qrty · 7th April 2013, 19:58

Hopefully someone can answer this, maybe Sandy?

Can the bottom end bolts that come with the Peugeot Sport kits be reused or are they stretch bolts?

I ask as I have a Peugeot Sport kit to fit but the bolts have previously been used and looking on Peugeot Sport it says these are no longer available.