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View Poll Results: What do you think..
Good idea - I want one 2 25.00%
Good idea but seems like a headache in reality 6 75.00%
Seems too complicated to be useful. 0 0%
If its not broke don't fix it.. 0 0%
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Old 15th October 2010, 21:22   #1
ryanmt
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Default Aftermarket multiplexing..

Thought ide kick off the section with a bit of tech talk.

Its an idea ive been kicking around in my head for a while, its not totally fictional either after telling a friend about it he has partially developed the framework for a DIY multiplexing it just needs further coding and hardware circuits doing. Its more of a proof of concept and it did work.

I know multiplexing scares the crap out of most people, and its true its abit of a nightmare on newer cars. The main issue is the lack of access to diagnostic systems though not the concept itself. When something goes wrong and you dont have the correct gear you are in the dark.

The benefits are huge, in a race car you get way less wiring so save weight and alot more reliability. On a road car you get that + cool features, control your cars system via a phone. Use your bluetooth as a Key to start the engine rather than an actual physical key etc the possibility are endless.

For those non electrical type the basics of multiplexing are as follows

standard wiring for every item on a saxo at the moment is there is a wire that goes from a switch, say the indicator stalk, via the hazard button, then a relay then splits off to each and every indicator on the car. A break in the circuit can be literally anywhere in the car body as the lights are at each corner of the car.. and as a result wiring wise, its fairly heavy.

Now imagine you had a central computer in the dash. you have one wire to the indicator stalk, one wire to the hazard switch. These are quite short since the computer is located in the dash itself.



Then you only need one single wire running to the rear of the car, and one single wire running to the front. Which then connects to a cpu at each end of the car, or nodes to give them a proper term. The single data wire allows the central cpu to send a signal to the node to turn on any circuit thats on that node.



- you save weight
- you have the ability to do bulb diagnostic tests since you can sink a tiny tiny current through the bulb to check the filament is intacked
- you don't need a relay anymore as flashing can be controlled via the cpu
- with only one wire and a live running to each sub cpu at the front and rear of the car you have less chance of breakage. If there is a break the central cpu will know that one node has a fault and can inform you
- all the switches are to ground - there is a tiny amount of current behind the dash so in the event of an accident there is zero chance of a fire.

once you have a system like that its easy to add extras, for example. The fan is wired into the front cpu, and the engine temp is wired into the central ecu. Keeping the fan running for 10mins if the car temp exceeds a certain threshold requires no extra wiring atall. Just a line of code.

Theres a system on the market already, i think it probably costs 1-1.5k which i doubt is in anybodies track car budget here. But on a 50k race car its a bargain!

Or if its got a speedo feed to it, adding features like
- max speed reached
- average speed
- over speed warning for the road
would all be straightforward to do.

This video explains alot about their system.
http://www.isispower.com/V8_interview.php

The one im toying around with would be alot cheaper mind. probably in the relm of £150-200 then you would have to make up your own connectors + waterproofing for the external nodes. It would be flexible though, the central cpu would have a screen to show any errors and bluetooth functionality is an option too.


No guarantees It will ever get done though but if i make any progress I will update this thread.

Interested to here other peoples opinion on it, anybody looked into it themselves? Or might be considering it now?
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Old 15th October 2010, 22:19   #2
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wow, looks like a very good system. Never really crossed my mind. Doesn't seem sll that complicated (on paper at least)
The main problem with race cars and these systems that i can see would be crashes. If you break the wire connecting the main cpu to the sub cpu's then all of those functionalities would fail. And if it was a race car i would guess that they would keep the number of cpu's to a minimum for weight reasons, so that could be a lot of systems failing at once. Especially in rally where after a minor crash you will need to struggle back to service
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Old 15th October 2010, 22:54   #3
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It would be more reliable, since there only 1 wire youve just got to protect that. In a rally application the ecus would be designed to be resilient and protected. As long as you could get the power to them they would work.

For example if the main ecu to the rear node failed you could have a failsave ... the fuel pump stays on untill the system is powered down to keep the engine running and the rear lights flash on and off to warn any cars behind the lights have failed, same could also be said if the ecu detects rapid acceleration without the brake pedal being applied you could assume the switch has failed.

Youve gone from a fuel pump wire than runs from the dash switch to the rear of the car and a break anywhere stops the car, to having a wire thats less than 1m long max that would have to be damaged to stop the pump. The rear node could have a "which way is up" type sensor so in the event of an accident where the cars on its roof it cuts off.

Theres a whole lot less to fail and the ecus easily weigh less than 3m of wiring loom to each bulb on the rear clusters.
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Old 15th October 2010, 22:59   #4
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And what is powering all of this? Surely they all will need their own power cables as well?
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Old 15th October 2010, 23:02   #5
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It would just be a permanent live cable. You could do a loop around all the ecus, if if there is a break anywhere everything would remained powered. You would have to have 2 separate breaks to loose power to a node, and a break in the short bit of wire from the node to the light or fuel pump itself to loose the functionality. Compared to a bunch of live wires running from the dash, that should one get stripped slightly and touch the body all hell can break loose when it melts the insulation off everything else. The canbus and power cables would be run separately and theres no power running through the canbus cable that could cause an issue.

Its starting to get more popular with racing applications as people catch on to the weight combined with added reliability and ease if use

http://www.number66.net/an-introduction-to-can-bus/


Interesting to see people would think it would be a headache. Fitting of a canbus is dead easy, run 2 wires to each node then wire the relevent switches, bulbs and motors to lables on the node. Would probably take half a day to do compared to god knows how long building a loom from scratch or even just customising a saxo one to add what you need and remove what you dont.
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Old 15th October 2010, 23:16   #6
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So the single cable going between the sub cpu and say fuel pump would be a power cable? That would be switched on at the ecu? As i thought the nodes were at the pump? And the node switches it on. So what circuit does it switch on? sorry i'm not all that clued up at electronics when it comes to things like this
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Old 15th October 2010, 23:22   #7
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You have a switch from the engine ecu or the dash, thats connected to the master node.

Its a to ground switch so no real power going through to short out, worse case that can happen is it shorts out and the fuel pump turns on.

Theres a short wire that goes to the master ecu in the dash, that takes the information, then passes it onto the sub node in the rear of the car. Thats the one wire bit the data from the dash to the rear.

Then theres another wire that goes from the sub node to the pump itself.
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Old 15th October 2010, 23:24   #8
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I see, but how are all of these sub nodes connected to the battery?
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Old 16th October 2010, 00:20   #9
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you would run a live off the battery to each node, you can wire them in parrel and get the earth locally off the body. If you wanted a resilient system you would wire them like a ring main.

Swap the consumer unit with the +ve battery terminal and hte plugs with nodes

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Old 17th October 2010, 17:21   #10
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how would these link up with say a z20let (vxr engine) or any other engine on can-bus?
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Old 17th October 2010, 17:38   #11
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In theory yeah, you could consolidate all the sensors readings onto a digital display etc. There isnt alot of info on OEM can bus stuff though so thats where the problems start...
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Old 20th October 2010, 17:54   #12
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canbus / multiplex is a godsend for engine running, but i fail to see the point in interior looms. causes more problems then anything. and for example on a canbus system if someone accidently cuts one of the bus wires (hi or low) the loom is nackerked and its a costly repair...

There are loads of french multiplex haters out there, and dont get me wrong i think its a brilliant weight saving and design that speeds up function, but in a saxo its just over the top in my own opinion..

Also for non motorsport applications to bypass cam wiring is a nightmare unless you know what pins to test on the OBD port and thats if your system will be keeping it?
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Old 23rd October 2010, 21:55   #13
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The problem stems from lack of manuals and things with oem stuff though. I think you are mixing it up with fiber stuff which is very expensive? For normal multiplexing its just a copper wire so no expensive or complicated repairs. Fiber on the other hand is impossible to join without mega expensive gear so rules it out for us mear tinkerers

I think thats maybe why aftermarket stuff has been slow to appere since theres so many people that just think multiplexing is a bad thing. But with a system that is more than happy to give you detailed and informative error messages its nice and easy. It can narrow down any error to a break in a piece of wire less than 1m long or a object itself, switch/bulb etc.
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Old 24th October 2010, 09:24   #14
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i work with fibre optics, canmbus and multiplex...

modern multiplex (french cars) / canbus (german etc) use a twisted pair (2 wires low and high can)

as said cut these and its game over and new loom time for the interior electrics...

its a fantasic system and very fast compared to normal wiring for the engine, but i still dont see the point for the inner car electrics other then ABS/ Airbags etc as the faster these work the better..

ive seen it many a time where items are wired into a "perm live" which is actually on the low can system which loses power after 10-35 seconds. In the even of an accident the low can confuses the high can and the abs / airbags may not even go off..


EDIT - also look at "connects2" canbus items. Although they are an audio parts supplier they make some of the best canbus by-systems from mock sensor nodes to complete rewiring (keeping SWC on modern cars for example)
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Old 28th October 2010, 21:05   #15
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Ive worked with can bus /multiplexsystems since they were first fitted to cars
would i fit one to a race car --not a chance
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Old 28th October 2010, 21:40   #16
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Ive worked with can bus /multiplexsystems since they were first fitted to cars
would i fit one to a race car --not a chance
Just curious to your opinions on why you wouldn't fit one to a race car?
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Old 29th October 2010, 15:54   #17
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I am presuming we are talking about normal mortals with normal budgets
who want to be able to find problems simply and easily
multiplexing will be very critical on voltages + resistances and liable to throw up ghost faults
a race car has sod all electrics anyway so why spend more money and comlicate things --unless you are having full data logging with a dozen engineers on the puit wall ananlyasing all the sensor outputs via satalite .
i have no customer ever use all the programable outputs from a an omex 710 or a DTA s8o or a gems unit all of which can run cnabus etc--so whats the chances of people wanting to spend on multiplexing
its like your mobile phones --/tv,s they can do all sorts of things but nobody wants to set them all up or psend weeks familarizing themselves with all the options.
sounds good technically -but not in the real world .
we were promised ten years ago all cars would be fully mulitplexed with computers at the end of the lines to switch things on + off ,like lights + heaters ,etc ,etc .
it has never happened ,why cause in the real world it is to complicated and causes more problems than it cures + is eexpensive.
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