Turbo, Carbs, Throttle Bodies, Boost???

[blackie_2k5]

Originally Posted by tichy

Yh I heard they were harder to map just thought is ask lol and roughly how much did your boost cost you to set up I'm looking at doing something like this sometime just not got to save the pennys first just want like a guide price yours is about the ideal power for what im after

if thats aimed at me then i have no real idea anymore becasue of changing spec etc so much, but at a good guess id say including the car it owes me no more then 4k all in, and ive still got lots of stuf waiting to fit to it

[Ryanp]

Steve red 106 S1 (mates with dave P)

Hes running boost and bodies, but then hes also running very lairy cams and has had a serious amount of headwork done too (or had done)...

I believe ultimately you can get more power/totally change the characterisitics of the engine by doing it this way it just requires alot more thought process

[tichy]

Yh it was aimed at you I should of used the quote thing Realy and that's a good price tbh made me want to do this Evan more now and you haven't done any internal work or have you

[tichy]

Ryan what do you mean by changes the charicterists of the engine in what way can you explain please just trying to learn about engine mods more sorry to be a pain

[blackie_2k5]

Originally Posted by tichy

Yh it was aimed at you I should of used the quote thing Realy and that's a good price tbh made me want to do this Evan more now and you haven't done any internal work or have you

no mate, its not that hard to do once getting going, just cost, lots of saving

Originally Posted by tichy

Ryan what do you mean by changes the charicterists of the engine in what way can you explain please just trying to learn about engine mods more sorry to be a pain

and probably how it revs, where it makes peak power, how the power is delivered etc



hmmmm food for thought tbh ryan

[axsaxoman]

I am very aware of what is available in turbo,s now ,but all you ever see on here and other forums is talk of units withwith old design blades and very little if any modern control systems .
please show me a grpah of power /rpm and boost level at 500rpm internvals of the type you are endorsing agianst what ,most peole are using.
I have said right at the start that just going for big numbers is wrong for the type of it is and the FWD car ,the way the power comes on ,
.
my bias ,if you wish use that term is born out of what I see on this and other forums of projects started --and half of which never get finished and the short time that the projects are used before they are sold or stripped and the bits sold on.
you must also admit ot being biased the other way
I am still waiting to see a really good manifold for a turbo as well that mounts the turbo at a proper height that gives a good oil drain and doesn,t require the relocation of everything --
why has someone not made a proper cast iron manifold that would move the turbo to a better postion --no need at at all for the tubular type on a road going car at the the power levels most use .--an expensive bit of bling the tubular one + they always distort after being fitted and a pain to remount again
As i have already said its a personal choice turbo or s/c but for simplicity of fitting the s/c wins hands down every time and can give more than enough power simply with no under bonnet heat problems ,no need to intefer with std oil supply system ,no extra water cooling system ,
I know if i had two cars in the workshop to do ,one turbo + one s/c the s/c would be rolling out the door alot quicker than the turbo one--you won,t fit complete turbo system + intercoolers + oil system + ex system extra water cooling etc in less than a day .
my views are based on the completed project and how much+ how hard it is to get there .
I will say it again i have nothing against turbo,s in principle on the right type of car

[axsaxoman]

Originally Posted by blackie_2k5

ai, i think it was sybez's i must have been reading about?

blocks85 is running turbo/bodies on his car with no issues(that ive seen), as said ive not really read much into it so i dont know, it seems a total waste of money and more of a whore spec then anything else IMO

why spend all the money to get minimal to zero benefit when you can get the same power/driveability without?

if this isnt the case someone please fill me in as id actually be quite interested to know what youd gain if anything..... but even if you do gain anything its still not gonna be worth the spends or itd be alot more widely known by now

but as always.. each to their own i suppose

the reason the turbo+ t/bodies wroks ok is with a turbo you have no boost until you have already opened thwe throttle --you have made hot gas ,wound u the turbo .
with the s/c when you crack the throttle the boost is already there ,so it made sybez,s car very jerky when going from very light throttle to large throttle opening --thats why there is no need in either turbo or s/c --unless you are running cams that don,t work till above 6k+ up to say 9k --then you would need them ,but that a specialised drag car ,cos you can more than enough bhp without them + drag car you don,t expect the engines to stay in one peice very long.
he reason steve was directed towards for going t/b with the s/c was to cut down the power at lower rpms to save the g/box+ he wanted a very large rpm range--if you were going to go t/b,s and boost the GMC/ATP units would be a good choice as they are not too big --but again only really neede if going to very high rpm --so you can have nice bottom end when not much boost is available

[Mieran]

I must say, the turbo 'lag' is being exaggerated a bit in this thread.

If someone never driven a turbo'd car and had a look in this thread they'd probably think you need to floor it for 10seconds then power comes in.

I would love to drive a supercharged car one day though to see what it feels like.

[e8_pqck]

thats what i was thinking.

John does have a point and i like the vids of AXO eating evo's. However, the super charger is quite expensive to buy - £1500 before even fitted where a turbo is like £150 so i think this sways a lot of people.

[dannygti]

I do agree John that massive advantage of the s/c kit is it's much easier to install.. It can be fitted by someone with little experience in 2 weekends which is a great sales advantage, also another reason why I'm hoping my friend will do a s/c as he doesn't have time to make a turbo kit from scratch nor the expendable income to pay a company for a drive in, drive out conversion.

[Jungle]

Originally Posted by Mieran

I must say, the turbo 'lag' is being exaggerated a bit in this thread.

If someone never driven a turbo'd car and had a look in this thread they'd probably think you need to floor it for 10seconds then power comes in.

I would love to drive a supercharged car one day though to see what it feels like.

Definately! Only time lag is really an issue on a 200-300bhp saxo is if its either not been set up right or someone can't drive.

[blackie_2k5]

only time ive ever found lag be a pain to me personally... was a a set of lights on a motorway, was behind a super quick rallye, he was talking to someone else as lights changed, rolled away and i just slipped into second off boost about 15mph, he was still in first, i wasnt expecting him to floor it but he did, i had nothing, off boost going to slow for 2nd too fast to drop into 1st without risking damage to box or shafts, single only time

[axsaxoman]

Originally Posted by e8_pqck

thats what i was thinking.

John does have a point and i like the vids of AXO eating evo's. However, the super charger is quite expensive to buy - £1500 before even fitted where a turbo is like £150 so i think this sways a lot of people.

I know of nowwhere you can buy a new turbo +exmanifold +oilsystem=water cooling system for £150 .
you are not comparing like with like I agree if you were gong for a s/h t2 180bhp set-up then providing you are not using a readliy available manifold like the dp or cituning then it will be cheaper --
and using a t2 the lag is less noticable as it spools up at lower rpms+ cannot make big boost anyway .
but if you do a like for like comparison then the dp kit is over 2k --and it doesn,t include everthing you need anyway -you even have to remake the bracket for the actuator ,so the like for like would be my s/c+ bracket + oil system +rollers + belt at £1750 --all the other bits are same sort of price what ever way you go --ecu ,injectors intercooler ,internal engine mods etc etc
if you are quite happy to run stock internals i can promise that the s/c will run higher boost levels than a turboand keep internals happy ,because of the way the boost comes on and no "spikes" in transitional fuelling which all turbo,s have and you can run higher comp levels ,so of boost is better.when i tell people that 7-8psi is max on std internals +std comp ratio
that is a level I know will not cause any problems ever -- not a possible max and it might go pop sometime --presuming fuelling is correct -my view from doing this a long time is that eventually the top ring groove will collapse running higher --
when i do not know ,so i would not promise anything else and would advise to go for 7psi to be really safe ,
but that will give you 50-60% increase of power--if you want it lower in the rpm ,providing you limit top rpm (for charger life) then you can have that too.

[Jungle]

Originally Posted by axsaxoman

I know of nowwhere you can buy a new turbo +exmanifold +oilsystem=water cooling system for £150 .
you are not comparing like with like I agree if you were gong for a s/h t2 180bhp set-up then providing you are not using a readliy available manifold like the dp or cituning then it will be cheaper --
and using a t2 the lag is less noticable as it spools up at lower rpms+ cannot make big boost anyway .
but if you do a like for like comparison then the dp kit is over 2k --and it doesn,t include everthing you need anyway -you even have to remake the bracket for the actuator ,so the like for like would be my s/c+ bracket + oil system +rollers + belt at £1750 --all the other bits are same sort of price what ever way you go --ecu ,injectors intercooler ,internal engine mods etc etc
if you are quite happy to run stock internals i can promise that the s/c will run higher boost levels than a turboand keep internals happy ,because of the way the boost comes on and no "spikes" in transitional fuelling which all turbo,s have and you can run higher comp levels ,so of boost is better.when i tell people that 7-8psi is max on std internals +std comp ratio
that is a level I know will not cause any problems ever -- not a possible max and it might go pop sometime --presuming fuelling is correct -my view from doing this a long time is that eventually the top ring groove will collapse running higher --
when i do not know ,so i would not promise anything else and would advise to go for 7psi to be really safe ,
but that will give you 50-60% increase of power--if you want it lower in the rpm ,providing you limit top rpm (for charger life) then you can have that too.

My turbo, manifold and oil feed/return together cost about £500, and as you said all the other bits with regards to fuelling, ecu, mapping etc would be the same for s/c or t/c.

Mine is fully spooled up to 1.3 bar by 3,000rpm and IMO thats bang on as if i'm smashing it why would i have the revs any less than 3k anyway?

Not wanting to get into this debate on here as I've got better things to do but just thought I'd give a real world example of a experience trubocharging a car as you make it sounds more difficult and expensive than it actually is.

[axsaxoman]

I thank you for your input ,if you could post a graph to show this and alaso quote spec of turbo used etc i,m sure everyone would be very appreciative,pictures would be even better

[blackie_2k5]

for what ive paid im pretty happy with my set up, its not been cheap, and isnt to the spec of most, but as said its just something for me to toy with, its been the first set up ive done, and ive learnt alot more then i used to know about turbo charging by doing it.

brief spec is:

90bhp silvertop in 98bhp shell
running mid-low 8's compression wise via 2mm ferriday decomp and 1.9mm MLS gasket
custom made manifold and down pipe with waste gas seperator, 316 stainless
2.5" custom made stainless system with custom centre box
440cc/min injectors
rallye inlet & vtr TB
200sx s13 garrett t25 turbo running 15psi
predator standalone with quicky loom re plugged for chassis

i know that it will blow up at some point, but at the cost of another vtr engine and service parts i dont mind blowing a few up ATM, i will be building a new car next year, 16v most likely, and may just go supercharger to try it out, it will be of alot higher spec

my latest dyno run gave me these graphs and an average of 218bhp, it has apaarant fueling issues which have haunted the car since "completed", now confident its either fuel pump or FPR

hence the richness up top, it also had a very restrictive induction on whichhas now been replaced with a free and force fed system- but its yet to be mapped for this(hadnt below), and the difference on the road from changing it was astounding to say the least.. its also running a pretty tame ignition map aswell presently

here are the graphs

[Jungle]

Originally Posted by axsaxoman

I thank you for your input ,if you could post a graph to show this and alaso quote spec of turbo used etc i,m sure everyone would be very appreciative,pictures would be even better

It's a TD04 off a classic Impreza WRX, don't know exact housing sizes though, custom stainless manifold and oil feed and return made to order. Can't put up the Dyno graph at the minute as i left in a rush saturday night and left it at the Dyno (doh!).

Pictures of the build and spec are on my progress thread.

In all honesty i know very little about cars compared to you and some others on here but I've just thumbled my way through the build lol. I knew what i wanted and I have common sence to build it so it performs well as a fast road car not a lag monster.

Edit: Copied spec from my build thread, not sure how accurate this is anymore cba to check it...

1.6 8v Rallye Engine
Spoox Smaller Radiator with custom header tank
Uprated Spark Plugs
Magnecore Competition Leads
Focus RS Injectors
GM 3 Bar Map Sensor
Walboro 255 Fuel Pump
Modified Inlet Manifold
Custom Exhaust Manifold
TDO4 Turbo
GR Performance Custom Stainless Steel Exhaust
Front Mount Intercooler
GR Performance Custom Stainless Steel Boost Pipes
Custom Oil Feed & Return to modified sump
Tial 38mm External Wastegate with G-R Performance Screamer Pipe
Battery relocated to boot
Innovate Wideband Lambda and AFR gauge
DTA S40 Pro Ecu
Custom Engine Loom
Blitz Electronic Boost Controller

[Gareth_R]

Just a shame that tam had to extend the front of his ax by two inches to fit the supercharger in!

[mangojace]

Superchargers can GTFO ...
4.30 mins

[e8_pqck]

Originally Posted by mangojace

Superchargers can GTFO ...
Endless-R R34 GTR time attack machine - YouTube
4.30 mins

looks like a handful and that box is getting a hammering!