Turbo, Carbs, Throttle Bodies, Boost???

[dannygti]

With that setup IMO and experience wouldn't be much quicker than cammed engine. Noise would be better though

[willsy]

Originally Posted by toxic

so if you had 5000 to spend what would be the best for power when you put your foot down i was going to get catcams 708 and omex ecu Jenvey range TB for now then forged pistons later on but do like the sound of a supercharger will have to look into this first as its all new

Best person to ask based on experiencing both TB's and Turbo would be dannygti.

I've heard from various people that have experienced a passenger ride in both too with both of his recent setups, that his Turbo setup is ridiculously good in comparison to the old TB setup


EDIT: Speak of the devil, see the post above mine

[toxic]

Originally Posted by dannygti

With that setup IMO and experience wouldn't be much quicker than cammed engine. Noise would be better though

why would that be like

[toxic]

Originally Posted by willsy

Best person to ask based on experiencing both TB's and Turbo would be dannygti.

I've heard from various people that have experienced a passenger ride in both too with both of his recent setups, that his Turbo setup is ridiculously good in comparison to the old TB setup


EDIT: Speak of the devil, see the post above mine

i will have to look into boost more then

[mangojace]

Originally Posted by hard_corejoeboy

You know what sod turbos, sod tb's get a trackday and tuition and buy yourself a video vbox and get better at driving first.

Turbo's and tb's are like black and white some people like one others liek the other...

I agree with this. If you have loads of money then turbo/supercharge and do trackdays etc.But if its one or the other. Id defo choose loads of trackdays

[toxic]

Originally Posted by dannygti

With that setup IMO and experience wouldn't be much quicker than cammed engine. Noise would be better though

were would be a good place to buy a turbo kit

[dannygti]

Originally Posted by toxic

were would be a good place to buy a turbo kit

I don't think the 15-20hp you get from throttle bodies, cams is that noticeable. You will see a big performance increase with 50hp but not 15ish..

There are a couple of places really, atspeed racing sell premium kits and build conversions, drive in, drive out. They are more expensive than most places but it's a good conversion.
Then there's cituning that do kits for a smaller budget. I think these kits are a great way to get on the boost ladder.

First things first... Buy yourself a book on forced induction and do lots of research on here and 106 owners etc

[axsaxoman]

Originally Posted by dannygti

Finally someone who understands why some people use turbochargers

if you think that then it goes double for s/c as there is no lag or any spool up point where traction is an issue caused by an uncontrollable increase in bhp over a small rpm range.
200@wheels is plenty for any road car with just FWD-,providing it comes in an orderly manner
,if you want to be able to put it on the road in both wet+dry conditions and on twisty roads ,not just drag racing
even works maxi cars didn,t have that much
gt28 series beiing a prime case --low power till you hit 4k + ,then goes mad

I have just specced an irish c2 rally car --which has to use a restrictor as all rally cars do ,--i supplied info + bits and he built it
220bhp @ wheels @6300rpm dropped to 190@7k (due to restrictor)--tested on hub dyno in ireland --not mine ,
he used our GMC ultimate road cams + pistons and only 9psi I don,t think you can complain at that
copuled with his 6 speed paddle shift sadev st82. it makes it a real weapon on all surfaces
I asked him if he wanted any more power --"no its plenty "and that from a man who has run evo,s etc for years,but didn,t like the costs
HIs first rally couple of weeks ago-- he reported to me had 130 entries he came 11 th overall --all other cars infront were ex wrc 4wd cars with gearbox that cost more than the whole c2.

we have a customer in cumbria who wanted basically the same idea -like a turbo but not -power from lower rpms
--no restrictor it made 303@fly @6400rpm , 267@wheels
his instructions to us was stop at 300--so we did , but again no lag ---.

we have other cars ,used daily running 250+@wheels and no lag -
I personally would stop a bit short of that for a daily drive

the point I am making is that turbo is not any better than s/c --just a different + personal choice and if its 400+bhp you want + lots of lag +little of a real mot pass then turbo is the way.
what you going to do with 350bhp@wheels I do not know .certainly nothing in the damp or on a twisty road

[toxic]

Originally Posted by dannygti

I don't think the 15-20hp you get from throttle bodies, cams is that noticeable. You will see a big performance increase with 50hp but not 15ish..

There are a couple of places really, atspeed racing sell premium kits and build conversions, drive in, drive out. They are more expensive than most places but it's a good conversion.
Then there's cituning that do kits for a smaller budget. I think these kits are a great way to get on the boost ladder.

First things first... Buy yourself a book on forced induction and do lots of research on here and 106 owners etc

yes i will get a book on boost first and reserch best way

[dannygti]

I'm sorry John but you don't half make me laugh sometimes..
With all due respect, where are these gt28 That have nothing untill 4k then goes mad??
You can spec a 28framed turbo to make full boost by just after 3k.. Not heard of a boost controller? You must be using some hefty wastegate springs..

I'm all for s/c. I like them infect, so much so I want my mate to buy one of your kits.. BUT although a s/c has no lag it also won't make the lowdown (3-4k) midrange (5-6) as a turbo of equivalent spec. You can drive round lag, if you couldn't the Audi quattro, f40, evo, impreza's, skylines, supra's, noble m12, gt2rs, 959 wouldn't be so successful ???

[mangojace]

Originally Posted by dannygti

I'm sorry John but you don't half make me laugh sometimes..
With all due respect, where are these gt28 That have nothing untill 4k then goes mad??
You can spec a 28framed turbo to make full boost by just after 3k.. Not heard of a boost controller? You must be using some hefty wastegate springs..

I'm all for s/c. I like them infect, so much so I want my mate to buy one of your kits.. BUT although a s/c has no lag it also won't make the lowdown (3-4k) midrange (5-6) as a turbo of equivalent spec. You can drive round lag, if you couldn't the Audi quattro, f40, evo, impreza's, skylines, supra's, noble m12, gt2rs, 959 wouldn't be so successful ???

+1

[e8_pqck]

CT20b on the celica GT-Four hits full boost at apx 2800 and pulls all the way to the redline.

You just have to match your turbo and cams to get the best out of it.

TD04 is also a fast spool and can take quite high boost.

[scot-ish]

i agree, you can have a turbo specced for what you want, i used to run a 350bhp starlet, running TD05, and was full boost (1.65 bar) at 4300 rpm. thats still 3000 rpm of power, and with a decent diff, and launch control, it didny half shift keep it in the revs when you drive and its usable.

s/c are good, but imho, i would still probably pick a turbo'd setup over a s/c'd one.

[Sandy309]

Originally Posted by willsy

Had TB's on the Saxo and honestly believe with the setup I had it was the worst money I spent on the car in terms of performance.

If you already currently have a decent map on a cammed 16v engine and you're simply looking to add TB's to that you'll be massively disappointed
Having had mine on the same set of rollers there was a pitifully low increase across the range figures wise (BEFORE: being cammed/mapped and AFTER having applied tb's to it), not worth the expense.

Originally Posted by toxic

Sounds like TB are just a waste of money then so why do people rave on about them

Sounds to me like it wasn't very well done. The common misconception is that all TB set ups perform the same and most mappers will do a good job. The difference between a good TB conversion and a bad one, is huge and most TB set ups are bolted on as available with little thought given to what makes it work. People always talk about the breathing, but that's not the issue, it's tuning... both tuning of the tract design to get a good pulse response and setting it all up properly.

I hate reading threads like this were the old bhp/£ debate rears its head, many factors are ignored to make the point and I think the comments about N/A vs Boost tuning producing very different cars are the sensible ones. You can't just steam roller N/A, saying it's a waste of money; I don't think it is and neither do most of my car related friends! I'm an induction bark junkie and boost bores me, I make no secret of that; but I understand it excites some people more than a good N/A engine.

Car modifying is not a business operation, it's not defined by a financial bottom line, it's not really a sensible thing to do at all on that level. It's whatever you want it to be.

[willsy]

Good reply Sandy,

My setup was done by a very reputable company where alot of people on here have had dealings with before.

My main point from personal experiences is that to get the very best out of TBs there does have to be alot of time and effort put into the build, and by all accounts there are very few that can match the knowledge and service which you're currently offering, very reliable engines with great performance but there's alot of investment to get to that stage.

The vast majority of people aren't aware of the whole pie and believe that by simply fitting TBs alone will be as simple as fitting cams and will reap similar benefits.

The amount of people who already have a cammed engine still see applying TBs on their own as a great performance enhancing mod when in reality it isn't.

Very few have the money available to put into a good setup, without that it isn't a wise investment.

[axsaxoman]

You can drive round lag, if you couldn't the Audi quattro, f40, evo, impreza's, skylines, supra's, noble m12, gt2rs, 959 wouldn't be so successful ???


all the car you mention have much more complicated ecu systems most have 4wd and none of them are fwd most of cars you mention have engines twice the size or more +not running at high boost+ have had millions spent on mapping --so not a realistic comparison with a home built budget limted saxo turbo kit.

it didny half shift keep it in the revs when you drive and its usable.

thats my point you have to keep it spooled up and there is always a narrow band of rpm where it suddenly has a large increase in power,which means you can never flatten the throttle until after the corner and car is pointing striaght not in FWD car

[Gareth_R]

but with an n/a car you have to keep it in the power band as well - its just as bad if not worse - at least with a turbo coming on boost you can control it rather than just waiting for the power to build

[axsaxoman]

Originally Posted by Gareth_R

but with an n/a car you have to keep it in the power band as well - its just as bad if not worse - at least with a turbo coming on boost you can control it rather than just waiting for the power to build

you won,t control the way a turbo comeson boost anywhere as easily as you can a s/c and there is never any lag .
if all you want is something that spins wheels ,shatters gearboxs +drive shafts at the slightest provocation turbo is the way ,you want something you can backoff the power halfway into a corner cos you got it wrong and then hit the gas again and have instant power or actually power sliide the front end by only throttle application then its n/a or s/c
If lag was not a problem --why would somone devlop an anti-lag system ???

[Gareth_R]

yes, because every turbo setup is tuned right up to the limit with huge bhp in mind. No one ever makes a low boost application with a suitably sized turbo, designed with driveability in mind.

[dannygti]

Nice post sandy, although i echo what willsy said, I have seen/been in over 10 throttle bodied cars and only one really pleased me with performance.. But it's a lot of money's worth.


John, the more you talk about turbos the less convinced i am you know what your talking about..and at one time I thought you were very knowledgable, non biased.

Half those cars I mentioned are old school turbo design, with new ball bearing turbo/ceramic you can get awesome results..
You do realise Most people don't just whack the biggest turbo on they can find do you? There are lots of ways to control boost to give you pretty much any power band characteristics you could wish for.. Of course there could be compromises but there will be with any engine.

Oh, and people use anti-lag so they CAN use a huge turbo and have low down power..