braided fuel line

[mark1311]

well am building the car to msa regs etc, so will need to be running inturnal fuel lines, question is...

-do i need a different fuel pump?
-if i use standard fuel pump how do i fit the lines to the pump?
-whats price am looking at for all lines and fittings?
-what size pipe?
-bst place for the stuff?

on a vts with itbs has alloy fuel rail

[kristel10589]

Originally Posted by mark1311

well am building the car to msa regs etc, so will need to be running inturnal fuel lines, question is...

-do i need a different fuel pump?
-if i use standard fuel pump how do i fit the lines to the pump?
-whats price am looking at for all lines and fittings?
-what size pipe?
-bst place for the stuff?

on a vts with itbs has alloy fuel rail

Iam also doing the same, although not to MSA regs.

1) don't see whats wrong with the standard one unless running massive BHP.
2) use fuel hose clips and push pipe over the pump inlet/outlet ports
3) probably around £100ish
4)about 8mm I.D IIRC.
5) not sure yet.

[willsy]

Hey Mark, hope this helps (taken from the 2011 msa blue book)

Fuel systems

5.13.1 have any fuel lines passing through the driver/passenger compartment protected and, if non-metallic, to be internally or externally metal braided hydraulic pressure hose or fuel lines complying with FIA specifications.

5.13.2 they may only be joined by screwed sealing joints or a vehicle manufacturers approved joint

5.13.3 if fitted with fuel fillers in a closed boot, or under closure, have collector/spill trays incorporated to drain outside the vehicle

5.13.4 use pump fuel, except, subject to prior written authority having been given by MSA, where permitted otherwise under event SR's and championship regulations

5.13.5 related to LPG fuel so cant be arced to type that one

5.13.6 again relates to non pump fuel so not relevant

5.13.7 with the exception of cars competing in sprint and hill climb road going production category, cars competing in British and MSA titled championships for, and all new build cars for rallycross, car racing, special stage rallying, sprints and hill climbs must. Be equipped with the facility to enable a fuel sample to be taken. For fuel injected cars the facility must be a dry break fuel sampling coupling, approved by the FIA, competitors are to carry and make available a 300mm minimum length of hose to which, there necessary, the appropriate mating part is to be attached.

5.13.8 have sufficient fuel for a fuel test present at any time during the event

[willsy]

Further to the last, mark do you have a copy of the blue book? If not I'll bring mine up with the AX for you to borrow.

There's some very specific bits with regards to cage mounting in terms of thickness of metal used for the strengthening plates etc too, a right ball ache

The lines which I usd with the Saxo were -6 fitting which was the fitting size used with the AT tb's alloy fuel rail, and on the fpr housing that i got from jenvey. Internal diameter of the hose was a snug fit with OE fittings and of the OE fuel lines too

[Dave_P]

I bought 10m of 8mm braided fuel hose from hel off eBay for £50.

The std pump is fine but you'll probably need a swirlpot and 2nd pump to combat fuel starvation.

[willsy]

Originally Posted by Dave_P

I bought 10m of 8mm braided fuel hose from hel off eBay for £50.

The std pump is fine but you'll probably need a swirlpot and 2nd pump to combat fuel starvation.

Agreed, in our old fiesta the fuel system was brilliantly setup with swirl pot etc. Just replaced it with a 205 which still has standard fuel tank/setup and it was getting quite a lot of starvation. Had to keep it over 1/2 tank to avoid it so certainly something we need to work on changing for future events

[Dave_P]

May i recommend the o/e replacement Astra/Nova GTE etc in line pump from Sytec for a 2nd pump... dont go wasting money on the uprated one thats also available the std replacement one is fine.

[axsaxoman]

my preference is to use 8 or 10mm copper / ally fuel lines through the car and make all connections outside passenger compartment --in engine bay or on top of fuel tank
complies with all regs , no smell and unless you use swaged fittings on the braided line ,which means getting them made up to length --,you will always get some smell when using the jubile type clip ,as the nylon inner pipe of the braided line does not clamp well with hose clips
easy to to run neatly much cheaper .easy to fix down with clips + takes up less space so can easily be hidden
you can get the tubbing from any plumber or on ebay by the roll

[kristel10589]

Originally Posted by axsaxoman

my preference is to use 8 or 10mm copper / ally fuel lines through the car and make all connections outside passenger compartment --in engine bay or on top of fuel tank
complies with all regs , no smell and unless you use swaged fittings on the braided line ,which means getting them made up to length --,you will always get some smell when using the jubile type clip ,as the nylon inner pipe of the braided line does not clamp well with hose clips
easy to to run neatly much cheaper .easy to fix down with clips + takes up less space so can easily be hidden
you can get the tubbing from any plumber or on ebay by the roll

if you wanted the hose to fit straight on to the standard fuel pump, how would you do that with swaged ends?

Also would you recommend fitting no connector for non MSA use, ie one length of piping from the fuel pump straight to the fuel rail?

[mark1311]

main thing am unsure of if how i would connect braided lines to the standard fuel pumb as said with them been push on fitting?

as willsy said i thinking about the swirl pot to, whats bets way round this? what all i need etc?

[kristel10589]

Originally Posted by mark1311

main thing am unsure of if how i would connect braided lines to the standard fuel pumb as said with them been push on fitting?

as willsy said i thinking about the swirl pot to, whats bets way round this? what all i need etc?

I don't really see the need of using a swirl pot with the standard fuel system.

What is wrong with using braided pipe pushed over the standard inlet/outlet with fuel clips. Clamping force would be suffeciant. In MSA don't you need a fuel sample point?

[mark1311]

Originally Posted by kristel10589

I don't really see the need of using a swirl pot with the standard fuel system.

What is wrong with using braided pipe pushed over the standard inlet/outlet with fuel clips. Clamping force would be suffeciant. In MSA don't you need a fuel sample point?

i dont mind doing tht, pushing them over and cliping if your aloud, bit unsure as they change there regs all time, thought i read at work all had to be screw type fittings.

yer need dry break fuel sampleing will be fitting tht on bulk head befor fuel rail though. another 80quid lol.

[kristel10589]

Originally Posted by mark1311

i dont mind doing tht, pushing them over and cliping if your aloud, bit unsure as they change there regs all time, thought i read at work all had to be screw type fittings.

yer need dry break fuel sampleing will be fitting tht on bulk head befor fuel rail though. another 80quid lol.

If it needs to be screwed in then it might be cheaper in the long run to get a in boot tank as the fittings can be made on to your specs like?

Iam not to sure on the MSA regs, and if they have to be screwed on then Iam not too sure what you could do about the standard fittings.

reg that wilsy states that you can use manufacture aproved clips, which are fuel clips on the saxo, may just need larger ones because of the extra O.D of the braided line vers the standard O.D line.

If thats the case then 8mm I.D braided hose, pushed over standard tank fittings with standard fuel hose clips (maybe just larger ones, IIRC 12mm is the o.d for braided hosing of 8mm ID so any clip that covers 12mm will be suffecient, then line to bulkhead with connector/sampling point the off to the fuel rail.

If using a metal fuel rail you can use fuel line jubilee clips like these.....http://www.demon-tweeks.co.uk/Produc...ign=Motorcycle

I fail to see why you would need a swirl pot.

[axsaxoman]

this is my point
how do you get good connections on to std type tubing with braided --you don,t
so the solution is simple outside the passenger compartment you use a short length ofstd rubber fuel hose and clips to connect to orginal fuel line+ join to copper fuel line .
same goes at connectors under bonnet .
swirl pot is only need if you have very high power car and want to run low fuel level in tank.
with boosted cars it is a known problem of starvation when running below 1/3 full ,due to flat shape of tank.
fitting a motorsport tank above the floor level in boot brings more problems as it must then have another enclosure around it inclucing the filler neck ,so the tank is not in the passenger compartment ,the same applies to a swirl pot ,as that technically is a fuel tank.
If you use 8mm fuel hose I can supply stainless steel "cobra clips" to fit which are same as used by citroen on std fuel pipes --you use pliers to close them ans once on they never need attention ,look much neater than a hose clip+ smaller anyway ,and at 50p a pop are not expensive either

If you wish to use braided at engine end tfor "bling "then you can use compression fittings on solid pipe and use jic 6 fittings on made up braided pipes to the non std fuel rail etc
but a full set of swaged fuel ines with aircraft type screw on fittings and all fittings will cost hundreds--
It will also weigh more -- so I just don,t see the point

solid metal lines +fuel hose is std fitment on cars --so its the obvious choice ,
If you make up a protection plate to cover the lines along the n/s inner sill they won,t even be visible inside the car and have all the mechanical protection required (also hides the wiring to the fuel pump etc as well

[kristel10589]

Originally Posted by axsaxoman

this is my point
how do you get good connections on to std type tubing with braided --you don,t
so the solution is simple outside the passenger compartment you use a short length ofstd rubber fuel hose and clips to connect to orginal fuel line+ join to copper fuel line .
same goes at connectors under bonnet .
swirl pot is only need if you have very high power car and want to run low fuel level in tank.
with boosted cars it is a known problem of starvation when running below 1/3 full ,due to flat shape of tank.
fitting a motorsport tank above the floor level in boot brings more problems as it must then have another enclosure around it inclucing the filler neck ,so the tank is not in the passenger compartment ,the same applies to a swirl pot ,as that technically is a fuel tank.
If you use 8mm fuel hose I can supply stainless steel "cobra clips" to fit which are same as used by citroen on std fuel pipes --you use pliers to close them ans once on they never need attention ,look much neater than a hose clip+ smaller anyway ,and at 50p a pop are not expensive either

If you wish to use braided at engine end tfor "bling "then you can use compression fittings on solid pipe and use jic 6 fittings on made up braided pipes to the non std fuel rail etc
but a full set of swaged fuel ines with aircraft type screw on fittings and all fittings will cost hundreds--
It will also weigh more -- so I just don,t see the point

Can't agree more.

[mark1311]

so i dont need to fun braided fuel lines though out fot msa logbook etc? just all to be ran internal? if so thts great just wont cheapest way of using standard fuel pumb lines etc, engine bay side i have the atbodies with alloy fuel rail.

[Dave_P]

What form of motorsport do you intend doing?

[Colin]

Mark, get about 10m of high pressure braided line from Tweeks, 8mm inside diameter and use fuel line clips. Fits up fine to the pump and standard rail. Dont forget to strip the braid back when tightening it down on a fitting, it should be bare rubber.

If your bling y0 and have -6 fittings on your rail, you need to get the -6 stuff from earls but thats a waste of money and doesnt do anything.

Simple. Ive done mine like this and have no probs with scruts.

[mark1311]

stage rallying like colin, and also some hill climbing/sprint, but if its of for stage rally will be o for hill climbing/sprint.