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Saxo Engine/Performance If you're interested in tuning Saxo engines, or if you need to know something which is engine related... this is the place for you.

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Old 2nd May 2020, 18:51   #1
sri_130
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Default Idle woes continue

-New TPS sorted the hesitation when applying throttle.
-New MAP (Genuine Bosch) has not fixed the idle. (have 3 used ones and its the same with them all.
-New Lambda connected OEM style thing, not a bosch or anything (2nd one is sleeved)
-Used coilpack (from mine, which worked before) installed

Unplugging the MAP when running, it idles fine.
Map plugged in, sounds like it is missing a bit, but only intermittently. Idle's sometimes Ok, but soon goes random. (never high revving though, just low wanting to cut out, back to normal then back low again).

Codes P0141 and P0170 are logged - which I believe will be because it's running rich. Which would point to the MAP.

Now noticed the water temp gauge doesn't move.
Unplugged the the top coolant sensor, light illuminates on the dash. Car then cuts out and struggles to start.

I've got an MT2500 tool coming, hopefully to read all the live data - as the ECU is giving next to no outputs on the china OBD.

Coolant Temp sensors maybe?!

Last edited by sri_130; 2nd May 2020 at 19:04.
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Old 2nd May 2020, 18:55   #2
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i was going to suggest the temp sensor, but isnt there two one that feeds the ecu and another that feeds the dials?
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Old 2nd May 2020, 19:00   #3
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yeah there are two. Hopefully get some live data when my new tool shows up.
The lambda is also an aftermarket thing - maybe should get a bosh or something decent. hoping I can see that data as well, to make a judgement.
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Old 2nd May 2020, 19:10   #4
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http://www.saxperience.com/forum/sho...ighlight=p0170
I've not changed the ICV....hmmm...
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Old 4th May 2020, 22:30   #5
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Getting there!
It's now started misfiring (LOLz) immediately at start up. Still idles awful.

Changed the coil pack and spark plugs - no difference.
PLUGs are very black.
Changed ICV to my spare (magnetti) - no difference.
Blocked off the throttle body with my hand - car stalls (no air leak)
Disconnect the map sensor again - car idles OK.

Was about to give up - just thought to disconnect both lambdas.

IT IDLES! and revs normally. No misfire
When I said 'immediately' about the misfire I mean, the first time I started it, it didn't do it. it warmed for about 1 minute, then subsequent restarts it had a misfire. So that sounds lambda to me. Wonder at what water temp the lambda closed loop kicks in...

The front lambda is possibly China (but it's new) and has a green connector. Apparently a green connector means post cat... so that would be wrong then. The current post cat lambda is green also, so I can't even swap the fuc*ers.

New Bosch Lambda on the way. Listed as 'front' lambda it has a black plug! brilliant. Good job I'm not colour blind.

Last edited by sri_130; 4th May 2020 at 22:38.
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Old 8th May 2020, 15:13   #6
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Lambda has made no difference.

I've unplugged both of them now, idling is still an issue. I can't quite tell if it is misfiring slightly or not, but it was from stone cold.

Disconnecting the map sensor, the idle speed increases and it stays steady.

Unplugged coolant temp sensor and it ran worse, so that seems to be ok.
Swapped about ICV's (have 3!) no difference.
Disconnected TPS and it runs worse.

Got the temperature gun out. Each exhaust header is running there or thereabouts the same temperature. The runners are different lengths before they reach the collector, so that will make a difference I'm sure. But left most cylinder was 220 degrees with the middle two about 240 and the shortest header on the far right was 230ish.

Can only think that it could either be the timing or the injectors.
The only thing I have touched would have been the timing. I took the belt off to do the cam ladders.
The exhaust cam is/was fully advanced, so I couldn't time it up 100%.

Looks like I'll look there next.
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Old 10th May 2020, 18:20   #7
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Misfire was the coilpack. I'd replaced it with the wrong one - what a nobber.
Care now idles, but still not 100% good enough for me.

When it warmed up, I blipped the throttle and the revs stuck at 2k! they hung there for a bit, I blipped it again and it then backfired. Logging P0505 - Idle control malfunction. You don't say.

ICV next then!
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Old 11th May 2020, 16:02   #8
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some progress at least!
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Old 12th May 2020, 09:03   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sri_130 View Post
Misfire was the coilpack. I'd replaced it with the wrong one - what a nobber.
Just curious,did you fit a black plug one to a grey plug one on the loom?
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Old 12th May 2020, 11:45   #10
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Just curious,did you fit a black plug one to a grey plug one on the loom?
No.

I have done this before though - with a couple of cars, that have grey coil loom plugs, then used a black coil pack. Worked fine. When I got to Wayne's though, he was wagging his finger and withheld biscuits. The grey ones are sequential fire I believe he said. It was a couple of years ago... he told me to replace it before going back. £120 later (I shit you not) after visiting Citroen (yep) who forgot what Saxo's are, at first, I have a new one.

In this instance, I'd used a grey plug coilpack - however it was an old shi&ter and I'd not binned it. Typically it is a 'spare' I took to the dyno and we tried it there and it misfired like mad! I should have just binned it back then.

Still got the ICV to change (been looking at the clocks/gauge issues) & also live data to read. Will post up the results in case anyone else is still sad enough to have these dramas.

Last edited by sri_130; 12th May 2020 at 11:52.
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Old 13th May 2020, 14:42   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sri_130 View Post
No.

I have done this before though - with a couple of cars, that have grey coil loom plugs, then used a black coil pack. Worked fine. When I got to Wayne's though, he was wagging his finger and withheld biscuits. The grey ones are sequential fire I believe he said. It was a couple of years ago... he told me to replace it before going back. £120 later (I shit you not) after visiting Citroen (yep) who forgot what Saxo's are, at first, I have a new one.

In this instance, I'd used a grey plug coilpack - however it was an old shi&ter and I'd not binned it. Typically it is a 'spare' I took to the dyno and we tried it there and it misfired like mad! I should have just binned it back then.

Still got the ICV to change (been looking at the clocks/gauge issues) & also live data to read. Will post up the results in case anyone else is still sad enough to have these dramas.
Not quite, the coil packs operate the same

but on a grey plug, the 4th pin is used by the ECU to determine which cylinder has just fired so that it can run sequential injection.

also, he will have told you Sagem coil packs are shite, and I agree because I had one and a new OEM from Peugeot for £116 fixed a lot of problems.
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Old 13th May 2020, 21:37   #12
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go look at your "oem" one and there's a fair chance it'll say sagem on it...
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Old 13th May 2020, 23:25   #13
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Yeah thats weird because the engine I have, bought from a 98 car in 1999 has a Sagem. Id assume that was standard fit at that age.

Maybe more critical on grey plugs
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Old 14th May 2020, 11:39   #14
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Quote:
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Not quite, the coil packs operate the same

but on a grey plug, the 4th pin is used by the ECU to determine which cylinder has just fired so that it can run sequential injection.

also, he will have told you Sagem coil packs are shite, and I agree because I had one and a new OEM from Peugeot for £116 fixed a lot of problems.
I didn't do bad then - 2 years ago, I remembered he said sequential!

The new £120 coil-pack says Sagem on it!
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Old 14th May 2020, 11:54   #15
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Originally Posted by welshpug View Post
go look at your "oem" one and there's a fair chance it'll say sagem on it...
I will maybe this week, but my advice is to stay at home

I specifically remember testing a new sagem pack and my old sagem pack and the resistances weren't in spec on either of them. That was way back in 2014ish. I was absolutely clueless about them before then, so I did my own research.

however, the (we'll call it mystery for now) mystery pack I bought from the dealer is spot on spec and it made a noticeable difference to the way the engine ran.

It could be just that the sagem pack I tested at that point in time was faulty out the box, these things do happen.
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Old 14th May 2020, 12:58   #16
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I will maybe this week, but my advice is to stay at home

I specifically remember testing a new sagem pack and my old sagem pack and the resistances weren't in spec on either of them. That was way back in 2014ish. I was absolutely clueless about them before then, so I did my own research.

however, the (we'll call it mystery for now) mystery pack I bought from the dealer is spot on spec and it made a noticeable difference to the way the engine ran.

It could be just that the sagem pack I tested at that point in time was faulty out the box, these things do happen.
I fancy not having these hefty packs and running one of the remote ones with leads. Never looked into it, but some searching on here this afternoon might pass some time.
Is stuff like that plug and play if the connectors are right, do you know?

I had a Sagem mobile phone once. JFYI


*Edit. The remote coil pack concept seems a bad idea for us with grey coilpack loom connectors.
SAGEM OEM NOT OEM FTW


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