at what poundage springs/setup do we think about removing front arb? - Saxperience

sexy_gt · 10th November 2012, 18:07

as above... anyone not running a front arb?

i am going to be using the following setup...

choice of 250-300lbs front spring
22mm front arb

21mm rear tb's
24rear arb

bilstein grp n dampers

i read that the rear may be better off with 23mm rather than 21's but will removing the front arb reduce a lot of front understeer...or at those poundages is the front arb useless?

please help and feel free to discuss

unreal106 · 10th November 2012, 19:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by sexy_gt

as above... anyone not running a front arb?

i am going to be using the following setup...

choice of 250-300lbs front spring
22mm front arb

21mm rear tb's
24rear arb

bilstein grp n dampers

i read that the rear may be better off with 23mm rather than 21's but will removing the front arb reduce a lot of front understeer...or at those poundages is the front arb useless?

please help and feel free to discuss

I have the set up of
350 front springs on gaz golds
23 mm rear bars and gas golds (genuine ones the strut modded ones not the cheaper gha kit)
With no arb I can confirm it is amazing it really handles so neutral and so planted it a definite removing the arb from around the 275 mark from my personal preference

greyjasper51 · 10th November 2012, 19:38

Really ive not heard of this will have todo a test on this! See if i like it :-)

Im 100% standard bar being lowered 40 front 60 rear i think... Handles well tbh

sexy_gt · 10th November 2012, 20:18

i have heard an easy way to test whilst at the track is to undo one droplink on one end only.

scottie_436 · 10th November 2012, 21:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by sexy_gt

i have heard an easy way to test whilst at the track is to undo one droplink on one end only.

Correct.

With one end off the bar just moves up and down with the opp side suspension

greyjasper51 · 10th November 2012, 21:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by sexy_gt

i have heard an easy way to test whilst at the track is to undo one droplink on one end only.

Thats what i was thinking but remove it so it dont flap about

adamskiTNR · 10th November 2012, 23:33

take one drop link off

Dave_P · 11th November 2012, 08:29

Your front arb is too big, fit one off a quiksilver. I run 400lb front springs/slicks and still use a front arb.

Imo the 106/saxo needs a front arb on tarmac, without it I found the front just flops over and the inside rear lifts up miles off the ground.

AlexB^p · 11th November 2012, 08:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by greyjasper51

Really ive not heard of this will have todo a test on this! See if i like it :-)

Im 100% standard bar being lowered 40 front 60 rear i think... Handles well tbh

unless your kidding your cars probably too soft for no arb fella

sexy_gt · 11th November 2012, 20:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave_P

Your front arb is too big, fit one off a quiksilver. I run 400lb front springs/slicks and still use a front arb.

Imo the 106/saxo needs a front arb on tarmac, without it I found the front just flops over and the inside rear lifts up miles off the ground.

ever tried without?

AlexB^p · 11th November 2012, 20:49

dave
what size mains are you running and do you have helpers at all?

that sounds like a helper unweighting allowing the car to roll

saw that on a car at bilstien we shortened the damper to remove the helper and run a slightly longer main to maintain the height and the problem stopped

i may be wrong though i know you have extra castor and things

ive been trying to work out a way of running a bladed arb up front tbh

MaRiO89 · 5th December 2012, 00:12

Just look at the official Saxo Kit Cars/S1600 rally cars and also the Saxo Trophy rally cars. All use front and rear ARB's in tarmac spec running high poundage springs. Says it all to me, if advantages were to be had by removing the ARB Citroen and Peugeot would have done it in their race cars.

sexy_gt · 5th December 2012, 06:22

I would take a guess that they have to for rules and regs.

axsaxoman · 5th December 2012, 09:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by MaRiO89

Just look at the official Saxo Kit Cars/S1600 rally cars and also the Saxo Trophy rally cars. All use front and rear ARB's in tarmac spec running high poundage springs. Says it all to me, if advantages were to be had by removing the ARB Citroen and Peugeot would have done it in their race cars.

and if you look closly you will find the arb,s these use look nothing like the std one and the front suspension is nothing like the std set-up + money is no problem to a works team
if you have £6k to spend on front suspension then buy a kit car set-up
we are not talking about this level of suspension -so your view that it must be needed is flawed as you are comparing apples + pears --and very expensive ones at that
as for cup cars ect you are not allowed to remove them in the rules --the idea was to have a near std car with very few mods

AlexFocusST · 5th December 2012, 09:30

Saxo and 106 kit cars use straight arb that goes through the passenger cabin
Probably so that they are easier to be changed to stiffer or milder ones i guess

Dave_P · 5th December 2012, 09:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by sexy_gt

ever tried without?

Ye, as I said above.

Find a Quikky front arb and fit it, job done.

MaRiO89 · 5th December 2012, 10:44

I agree that they are obviously different, i have had a very detailed look around and underneath a couple of genuine ex works Saxo Kit Cars over in belguim. While the design etc is different, the principle is the same, they use ARB's and all of them handle out of this world.

We use ARB's in our Cup Car and dont come in from stages thinking we need to make it handle better.

Having said that, some people swear by taking the ARB out, it all depends how you like the car to feel so give it a try, as has been said just disconnect one side and see.

Jon_Doe · 22nd December 2012, 21:51

The two fastest 106's racing at Castle Combe both kept them on.

sexy_gt · 24th December 2012, 16:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jon_Doe

The two fastest 106's racing at Castle Combe both kept them on.

each to their own i guess, tyres and other different things will make large differences to requirements...

wonder if they have tried without at all

also i have only driven mine without at cadwell in the wet. was brillinat compared to with. i am very keen to have a thrash in the dry

Jon_Doe · 16th January 2013, 09:11

After a lot of readon over the christmas period there are some principles which may be helpful and back up why a small arb might be helpful.

The aim is to keep the drive wheels on the ground, so in this case the result of anti roll bars needs to be less at the front. The roll overall should be kept to a minimum. Higher anti roll can be used at the back. The suspension should be balanced.

We probably knew all this already but high rate springs at the front reacting to the various bumps and being less affected by a roll bar is maybe what we are all talking about. Balance is important of front/ rear stiffness but from my reading, it would point me towards making up the non drive wheels with more anti roll rather than spring (and why not with a lighter back end- you dont want it skipping but you dont want it sagging) and on the drive wheels more spring and less anti roll.