cambelt/timing weirdness + not running right after battery removal. Help please? - Saxperience

mechsman · 29th July 2013, 10:53

Ok, this is really stumping me now, so ideas would help if possible please. I went to do the cambelt on my quiksilver this week as it's due one. Before I started the car ran fine and was in daily use.

Removed: top cover off the cambelt, ecu and tray,
Disconnected: both battery terminals (1st thing I did), sensor on the left side of the inlet (as you look at the car from the front), breather hose that runs across the rocker cover and down under the ecu tray.

I also managed to break the suppressor cable from the coil pack, but from my research, this isn't crucial.

Jacked the car up, removed wheel and turned the engine using a breaker bar and socket on the crank pulley. Engine turned fine and I could feel the compression strokes. I wound the engine round until I could slide a 10mm drill bit through the camshaft sprocket into the block hole. My 8v has no adjustability on the cam, just the 21mm bolt in the pulley centre. So wound it round and the bit slid in fine. However, I couldn't get the 6mm (also tried with a 5mm and a 4mm) one to go into the flywheel. Took the 10mm out of the cam and spun the engine until the flywheel one went in. With the flywheel one in place the cam hole is at about 4 o'clock!

Much weirdness, so I put it all back together (didn't have the belt off) and started it up. It now runs like a bag of spanners and barely idles. It will spin to ~3000rpm off load and won't spin to more than 2000rpm under load. No torque when driving and stalls very easily, or when you rev and then let off.

What the hell is going on with this people?

The only way I can see to know where the pistons truely are is to either, put a rod down the spark plug hole and watch it rise (if possible), or take the head off (which i want to avoid if possible). Ideas?

Gandi699 · 29th July 2013, 11:05

sounds like its totally mistimed. Did you check it by turning it over by hand first too before starting?
Also you can do an 8v timing belt without even lining it up, just stop the engine take the tensioner off and refit a new belt then retension and check by turning it over by hand a couple of times - aslong as nothings moved it'll be fine. Not the proper way but I've done it a few times

mechsman · 29th July 2013, 11:10

Yeah, thats what I thought, but it ran perfectly fine before i started the work, so it can't have been mistimed before. Plus the fact that the cam is at least 3 or 4 teeth from where it should be according the flywheel hole, so i wouldn't expect it to run at all if it was that far advanced.

I turned it by hand before I put it all back together and it turned fine.

Gandi699 · 29th July 2013, 11:14

If the timing hasnt moved and you are 100% sure of this, then check the electrical side

mechsman · 29th July 2013, 11:19

Well I haven't had the belt off and the cam sprocket and flywheel don't appear to have moved relative positions, so I don't think so. What would need checking on the electrics?

Also, given it runs up to 3k and idles by itself (albiet badly), does this not suggest that the ecu and coil pack are ok?

Gandi699 · 29th July 2013, 11:41

well you just have to think what you have disturbed. If it ran before, albeit with the timing apparently out, and its still as it was then whats causing the poor idle

axsaxoman · 29th July 2013, 11:56

my guess is map sensor or crank sensor problem --get it on a PROPER diag machine that can read live data and see what it shows
this is presuming all vac pipes ,servo pipe, carb can vlave pipe etc are connected

mechsman · 29th July 2013, 11:58

The only thing that I can think is that because I've had the battery off and the ecu out, is that the ecu has reset itself and lost all of it's long term trims etc. Would there be both a cam and crank position sensor on this engine?

If so, maybe someone has had the flywheel off and put it one one bolt position round from where it was, and the ecu has learned to ignore crank sensor and just go off the cam and the knock sensor?

axsaxoman · 29th July 2013, 12:01

check tdc with spark plug out and a rod down the hole --that should line upwhen 6mm drill is in flywheel --you may have to clean out hole
and cam hole should also line up with pin --if not make it so

mechsman · 29th July 2013, 12:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by axsaxoman

my guess is map sensor or crank sensor problem --get it on a PROPER diag machine that can read live data and see what it shows
this is presuming all vac pipes ,servo pipe, carb can vlave pipe etc are connected

Yeah, i really need to get a decent diag setup to be honest. The only pipe i disconnected was the one that runs across the top of the rocker box and upper cambelt cover, then down towards the ecu tray. I don't think i disturbed the crank sensor but I'll double check i haven't knocked the wiring tonight.

mechsman · 29th July 2013, 12:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by axsaxoman

check tdc with spark plug out and a rod down the hole --that should line upwhen 6mm drill is in flywheel --you may have to clean out hole
and cam hole should also line up with pin --if not make it so

Yep, that's the plan tonight. Any idea what size sparkplug socket i need? Is it 16mm?

What's confusing the hell outta me is that it ran very well with the holes completely wrong in the first place!

axsaxoman · 29th July 2013, 12:34

you are presuming that you turning engine on cam bolt did not jump teeth on belt .
you may also have an ecu/wiring problem which has manifested itself after your interference
i am guessing you have no ecu light showing when running ,but it does show on start up--thats how it should be

mechsman · 29th July 2013, 12:51

I didn't say I turned it using the cam bolt. First thing i did was turn it several revolutions using the crank bolt and breaker bar, and I couldn't get it to line up. As it happens I did then turn it a little using the cam bolt to see if there was silly flex in the tensioner or anything. There wasn't, so I can't see that I've done anything that would cause it to jump teeth? Am I missing something?

Yes you are correct about the ecu light. On with ignition and then off when started.

f13sta · 29th July 2013, 19:48

Sounds like its 180 degrees out.

mechsman · 29th July 2013, 23:10

Surely it wouldn't run at all like that? Either way, I don't think so, as when the flywheel locks up on the pin, the cam sprocket hole is at 4 o'clock, whereas the cam locking hole is at 2 o'clock. Spinning the crank 1 turn results in the cam sprocket hole being at about 10 o'clock.

Didn't get a chance to check the piston tdc vs the flywheel tonight as I didn't have the right size socket to get to the plugs (so had to go buy one) :-(, and I then had to go pick the other half up.

mechsman · 30th July 2013, 10:08

Just to note, I got the plugs out this morning (had the wrong size socket last night), and every one of them is black and sooty on both the electrode and the ground strap. Suggests to me that it's running very rich. Which I think makes sense if the cam is too far advanced relative to the piston positions?

hillbillyxsi · 30th July 2013, 12:37

daft question but when u removed the ecu and tray ect did u remove the fuel pump relay under the ecu tray aswel? may be worth checking that is plugged in correctly as this would cause poor running

Gandi699 · 30th July 2013, 12:41

I'd be inclined now to take the belt off, renew it and time it up properly. I'm pretty sure you cant fit the flywheel incorrect due to the location of the bolts/dowels to align it, at least thats what I remember when I swapped a vtr one to my s2 rallye engine over on mine at least

mechsman · 30th July 2013, 13:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by hillbillyxsi

daft question but when u removed the ecu and tray ect did u remove the fuel pump relay under the ecu tray aswel? may be worth checking that is plugged in correctly as this would cause poor running

I didn't disconnect the relay, I simply slid it off the little clip that's on the bottom of the tray. I will check that I haven't disturbed the connection though. Having said that, twisting the key to the second click does produce the normal whine of the in-tank pump priming itself, so I know the pump isn't entirely dead.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gandi699

I'd be inclined now to take the belt off, renew it and time it up properly. I'm pretty sure you cant fit the flywheel incorrect due to the location of the bolts/dowels to align it, at least thats what I remember when I swapped a vtr one to my s2 rallye engine over on mine at least

Plan tonight, assuming the weather holds, is to put a rod/screwdriver down the spark plug hole on number 1 cylinder (crank pulley end?) and gently turn the engine to the point where the flywheel hole lines up. If the piston isn't at tdc (from watching the rod) then I know that the flywheel isn't indexed correctly, and i will need to time it visually using the rod. If tdc and the flywheel hole do line up, then i will remove the belt and time it up on the holes.

mechsman · 31st July 2013, 11:59

Right, I put a rod (allen key) down the spark plug hole for number 1 cylinder and turns out that tdc does line up where the flywheel hole says it should. I have now removed the belt and moved the cam back to where it should be (4 o'clock to 2 o'clock). Question, am i likely to have done any damage to the valves etc running the engine with the cam that far advanced relative to the pistons? It was run up to about 3000 rpm and for about 10-15minutes at idle. Am i going to have to strip everything and replace valves and possibly the seats?

I have also noticed that I have a cracked exhaust manifold (soot on the underside of the heatshield right above a line in the casting that also has soot round it) but that's a seperate issue :-(.

Also, should there be any resistance turning the engine with no plugs in (with the belt still on obviously)? There was a little bit as the pistons coming up on compression stroke but nowhere near as much as with the plugs in.