got any ideas?

[KamRacing]

Originally Posted by Gandi699

if you are aiming for 100 bhp then fit an xsi or rallye head with its associated ECU, loom and inlet with wiring mods to splice it into your cars body loom.
Would save yourself a heap of a money time and effort as to me it seems pointless to be modifying all and sundry with your current engine and head when there are oem parts available that do the job better and cheaper and are a better base to start the modifying from plus rallye heads generally fetch decent money when rebuilt properly so you wont really lose anything if you break it for parts

This

Just fitting stiffer valves will loose you power. You get more parasitic losses with no gains if the camshafts do not require them and you are getting no valve bounce. With the Rallye head you can fit far better camshaft profiles as the head and inlet manifold flow better as well as using thicker camshafts to cope with high revs.

The standard 8v manifolds are not the best flowing. A VTR can gain 12-14bhp from a manifold and exhaust swap.

I know you are saying 8v only but VTS's are at rock bottom prices. You can buy a whole car for half the price of the modifications mentioned above. You even get a better gearbox thrown in the deal.

Last time I looked even 106 Rallyes were going for just under £2k and standard those are punting out 105bhp

As this car is for road use, then chasing big bhp from a small engine size will be a money pit unless you are prepared to boost. If you want to keep the 1.4 then boost is going to be your only option for a decent 120bhp+ with everyday drivability.

[wrighty89]

Personally, I think you're mad. Technically, the 16v makes its power higher up the rev range but in the real world it doesn't exactly make driving it difficult. A 16v with some breathing mods still has some nice pull from low down. They are nicer to drive in every way in my opinion.

If you are set on staying 8v and want around 100bhp for a moderate to low budget, why not just fit a VTR engine?

You'll be polishing a turd throwing money at the 1.4. You'll never have the torque or power that the 1600 can produce without throwing thousands at it. I have no doubt you can make one hell of an engine from the 1.4 8v but it means big budgets, forged internals, well thought out cam, proper headwork, itb's, good ecu and mapping etc.

You'll get a VTR engine very cheap on ebay, filter, exhaust and manifold and you'll be over 100bhp and it'll drive quite nicely.
Still not as nice as a 16v mind...

[Mi5terSIR]

cheers for the advice lads, ill have a look at getting a rallye head of sorts, im pretty sure the cam i got now wont fit in the rallye head so ill just sell it to pay for the head, i agree with the valvesprings part, im just not really sure if valve bounce/float is coming a bit close with what i got.

nos would be a bit bonkers lol, i would be a bit of a partypiece admittedly, but that is some big money, 800 or so quid for a well set up kit, and nos is something i wouldnt be cutting corners with.

turbo i thought about, but if im honest im not really sure what it will handle boost-wise, and would be a bit blind, unless someone has stuck a turbo on an 8v'er and has experienced it, would love to hear about that.

cheers for all the advice lads!

[Mi5terSIR]

Originally Posted by wrighty89

Personally, I think you're mad. Technically, the 16v makes its power higher up the rev range but in the real world it doesn't exactly make driving it difficult. A 16v with some breathing mods still has some nice pull from low down. They are nicer to drive in every way in my opinion.

If you are set on staying 8v and want around 100bhp for a moderate to low budget, why not just fit a VTR engine?

You'll be polishing a turd throwing money at the 1.4. You'll never have the torque or power that the 1600 can produce without throwing thousands at it. I have no doubt you can make one hell of an engine from the 1.4 8v but it means big budgets, forged internals, well thought out cam, proper headwork, itb's, good ecu and mapping etc.

You'll get a VTR engine very cheap on ebay, filter, exhaust and manifold and you'll be over 100bhp and it'll drive quite nicely.
Still not as nice as a 16v mind...

well. yes, i did say i was a bit pissed...

yeah im not saying its a really horrid powerband, but naturally, as most 16v's are, the breathing happens more up top, and it does tend to suffer, even if it is a little bit, in the lower rpm range, and i find that the 8v'ers are more happy to pull from there, i have found that with a lot of engines, probably to do with port velocity and whatnot at certain rpm ranges, i got a rough idea, but im not entirely all that well versed.

i agree it dont make it a crap drive, a VTS is fun enough, but i do prefer to have more lower down power, and the 8v heads are just better suited for that.

yes i do agree with the vtr engine part, but i like the built not bought thing i have had going on for a while now with it, yeah i will probably sink a fair old few quid into it, but im happy enough with that, because at least i know I made it get to around 100hp. i understand i may not have the torque that a vtr has at the end of it all, but im happy enough to know that its going to be a fair bit more powerfull than when i started with it, and thats fine for me, im not just spending money to make it faster, im doing it because i want to modify my car, i want to be able to work towards a goal, i could just stick a vtr engine and be done with it, but imo, where is the fun in that? if i have worked for it, i will be much more satisfied with the end result. it will have been something i done, a sense of achievement i feel is important when modifying a car.


i know its a bit long-winded, but thats how it is. i suppose i can only explain it as "i want to make it mine"

im not saying the 16v is shit, because its not, it is a good engine, but ive never really been fussed on it too much, and plus it wouldnt really achieve what im after.

if i did a swap like that, i probably would go balls out and get an XU10 or something anyway.

[Gandi699]

speak to blackie about turbocharging an 8v, his was quite a popular car on here.
turboing will probably be a little bit less money than the mods required to make big power on a N/A 8v but the gains will be vastly more

[wrighty89]

Originally Posted by Mi5terSIR

well. yes, i did say i was a bit pissed...

yeah im not saying its a really horrid powerband, but naturally, as most 16v's are, the breathing happens more up top, and it does tend to suffer, even if it is a little bit, in the lower rpm range, and i find that the 8v'ers are more happy to pull from there, i have found that with a lot of engines, probably to do with port velocity and whatnot at certain rpm ranges, i got a rough idea, but im not entirely all that well versed.

i agree it dont make it a crap drive, a VTS is fun enough, but i do prefer to have more lower down power, and the 8v heads are just better suited for that.

yes i do agree with the vtr engine part, but i like the built not bought thing i have had going on for a while now with it, yeah i will probably sink a fair old few quid into it, but im happy enough with that, because at least i know I made it get to around 100hp. i understand i may not have the torque that a vtr has at the end of it all, but im happy enough to know that its going to be a fair bit more powerfull than when i started with it, and thats fine for me, im not just spending money to make it faster, im doing it because i want to modify my car, i want to be able to work towards a goal, i could just stick a vtr engine and be done with it, but imo, where is the fun in that? if i have worked for it, i will be much more satisfied with the end result. it will have been something i done, a sense of achievement i feel is important when modifying a car.


i know its a bit long-winded, but thats how it is. i suppose i can only explain it as "i want to make it mine"

im not saying the 16v is shit, because its not, it is a good engine, but ive never really been fussed on it too much, and plus it wouldnt really achieve what im after.

if i did a swap like that, i probably would go balls out and get an XU10 or something anyway.

That's fair enough, I do like the idea of having a built engine as apposed to dropping in the next best standard engine. But I just think the 1.4 is going to be a stumbling block.

All up to you at the end of the day but if I was in your position I would maybe go down the route of buying an engine, build it up over time and then drop it in.

There are some very cool 8v's about. The S2 rallye engine with the right cam and some itb's from Sandy Brown can make upwards of 150bhp and rev to over 8k.

[Gandi699]

theres a guy on here who had a standard s2 rallye 1600 bottom end, ported head with a decent cam, bodies, management and I think it made about 160-165~ bhp. It can be done but its expensive and I'd wager with that engine it may not be so good in the lower revs any more, or as good as you may want it to be but then thats up to the engine builder and mapper to spec the engine to make the power where you want it to be

[KamRacing]

the 8v vs 16v power is generally a myth thats been going 30 years from the early hot hatches. This is due to the 16v's coming on cam and significantly breathing better at high revs rather than being slower low down. If you overlay the power graphs the 16v has more power and torque throughout the rev range. Other than weight theres no real disadvantage to 16v!

[obisho]

I have a vtr with 53k genuine miles on clock, ad rather have a clean and serviced engine than tune it who cares about power ad rather people see me drive past doing 20 with my sub thumping the shit out of the boot than rape it up and down a motor way


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk obisho

[Mi5terSIR]

kind of forgot about this thread, thanks for all the advice guys, its given me a fair bit of reading to do!

i have been thinking of going turbo for a while, but the wiring in the standalone keeps kicking me back, especially the fuel injection double relay, im not an electrician at all. really i want a second engine loom by the looks of it. or at least be able to work it out and use my loom, i will admit i have never gone this deep into engine management before, and the main bit really is just working out the fuel pump and that wanky relay.

i have a KKK K24 i was thinking of using, i had it cheap and rebuilt it, but now i think of it, its going to be too big for it, it wont spool for shit. i dont think at least.

but the turbo idea has been swimming for a while, if any of you guys are any good at standalone's and have a few spare mins of typing ill happily soak a bit up

majority of the mapping will probably be done by me, nowi know it dont sound good seeming as i cant even wire the bastard thing, but i have done some road mapping for a few mates to get them up to a dyno, and i always ask them to get the mapper to give me some feedback on what the base road map was like, and i haven't had terrible replies, the gti road map i done was "reasonable" on tony's words, so i feel i could sort something out, it may take me a long time, (like, 6 months more than likely) but i do plan on trying to get it at least "close" on my own, mapping is a lot of money, dont get me wrong, it is for a reason, but if its a cost i can avoid i will. im willing to lose a few horses to home mapping.

i agree with the 16v vs 8v thing, it has been going on for years, but for a reason so i believe, they both have their own characteristics which make them create a different powerband, yup the 16v has more power across a wider range, but the engine was developed a lot more than stuff like the tu5 and tu3's (bar a few saucy tu3's and the tu24 is it?) it was made from sqaure one to be a more performance orientated engine, more than can be said for the rest, its been pointed out a few times that the VTR engine is held back on purpose, theres a narrowing in the exhaust or something, the 1.4's have the inlet pipe that goes to the airbox that has a really nasty restriction, and if they have done that to start with, there is bound to be more points where they cut things down (lift, duration, valve sizes all that) to make it more of a point to buy the VTS.

i honestly think if you had 2 exact bottom ends and 1 8v and 1 16v head, they would point out what i have been saying, but the problem lies wherein is that we cant really compare an 8v and 16v head and say that they are on par flow wise for those number of valves and the sizes to be able to make it a fair test.

i would love to be able to test this theory grab a few heads, blocks and other bits and go to town, but funds say otherwise right now.

but i have always had it that the general conseous was that 16v heads flowed more higher up the revs, 8v lower down, i may also point out the 200cc difference, makes it very difficult to compare.

thanks guys!

[Mi5terSIR]

Originally Posted by Gandi699

theres a guy on here who had a standard s2 rallye 1600 bottom end, ported head with a decent cam, bodies, management and I think it made about 160-165~ bhp. It can be done but its expensive and I'd wager with that engine it may not be so good in the lower revs any more, or as good as you may want it to be but then thats up to the engine builder and mapper to spec the engine to make the power where you want it to be

i can see how it would be a bit dead below 3k, thats quite a lumpy spec and its built for all out balls, and me point is ill happily drop 50-60 peak to gain a nice lump of low end power, thats what will make it behave more, for the lack of a better word, on the road, and in theory...shouldn't eat as much fuel

[Mi5terSIR]

Originally Posted by KamRacing

the 8v vs 16v power is generally a myth thats been going 30 years from the early hot hatches. This is due to the 16v's coming on cam and significantly breathing better at high revs rather than being slower low down. If you overlay the power graphs the 16v has more power and torque throughout the rev range. Other than weight theres no real disadvantage to 16v!

almost forgot.

weight is a big sway for me, i will be doing some form of handling mods at some point, a nice set of well sorted shocks and springs, or maybe vts shocks with some decent springs, wider wheels and tyres, polybushes i might, i have been reading a fair bit of mixed reviews....might try them on the rear axle only and go from there...or just one the front arms, and it currently being an alloy block, that favours the handling very much, i can pretty easily (most reasonable build blokes could tbh, im quite scrawny lol) carry the block, head, and both mani's they are very light engines, i was very surprised the first time i lifted it, thats what sold me on keeping it really, it would be better if it was canted backwards like the XU engines to rear the weight a little bit.

overall, the car will be built 100% for feel, i dont care who is faster, as long as im happy with how it feels why i decide it's high time she had a hiding, i really dont mind, im just after that little grin you cant help but make when you throw it round a corner and it just settles and grips.

im pretty sure a lot of you will agree with me when i say there is nothing like it.

hence why we love our frenchy rot-boxes lol

[Jizanthapus]

Originally Posted by Mi5terSIR

almost forgot.

weight is a big sway for me, i will be doing some form of handling mods at some point, a nice set of well sorted shocks and springs, or maybe vts shocks with some decent springs, wider wheels and tyres, polybushes i might, i have been reading a fair bit of mixed reviews....might try them on the rear axle only and go from there...or just one the front arms, and it currently being an alloy block, that favours the handling very much, i can pretty easily (most reasonable build blokes could tbh, im quite scrawny lol) carry the block, head, and both mani's they are very light engines, i was very surprised the first time i lifted it, thats what sold me on keeping it really, it would be better if it was canted backwards like the XU engines to rear the weight a little bit.

overall, the car will be built 100% for feel, i dont care who is faster, as long as im happy with how it feels why i decide it's high time she had a hiding, i really dont mind, im just after that little grin you cant help but make when you throw it round a corner and it just settles and grips.

im pretty sure a lot of you will agree with me when i say there is nothing like it.

hence why we love our frenchy rot-boxes lol

[D4MJT]

Originally Posted by Mi5terSIR

almost forgot.

weight is a big sway for me, i will be doing some form of handling mods at some point, a nice set of well sorted shocks and springs, or maybe vts shocks with some decent springs, wider wheels and tyres, polybushes i might, i have been reading a fair bit of mixed reviews....might try them on the rear axle only and go from there...or just one the front arms, and it currently being an alloy block, that favours the handling very much, i can pretty easily (most reasonable build blokes could tbh, im quite scrawny lol) carry the block, head, and both mani's they are very light engines, i was very surprised the first time i lifted it, thats what sold me on keeping it really, it would be better if it was canted backwards like the XU engines to rear the weight a little bit.

overall, the car will be built 100% for feel, i dont care who is faster, as long as im happy with how it feels why i decide it's high time she had a hiding, i really dont mind, im just after that little grin you cant help but make when you throw it round a corner and it just settles and grips.

im pretty sure a lot of you will agree with me when i say there is nothing like it.

hence why we love our frenchy rot-boxes lol

The point people are making is that it simply is not worth your time or money to tune the 1.4 lump. The only plausible reason for doing so I can come up with is meet regulations for a particular racing series, but even then an S1 rallye engine would be a better starting point anyway, and it isn't the reason you're doing it.

If you're absolutely heart set on an 8v, simply get a VTR lump, they're pennies and you have your 100bhp out of the box easily enough, with scope for some more power through exactly the same sort of mods you're considering for the 1.4, with a better starting point. I'm not being rude, but there is little point dressing it up, you won't get masses of advice because it's fairly simple to establish why it's not worth pursuing, hence people haven't. Different isn't always better.

If you're all about 'feel' then stick a healthy sorted 1600 8v in it, and spend your money on worthwhile suspension, chassis mods, tyres and brakes, then spend whatever you have left on seat time, you're the single biggest difference to the cars performance you'll make.

As others have stated, with basic exhaust mods, you should be able to see 100-110 from a VTR lump easily and reliably, it's visually no different, the weight will be negligible if there is any difference at all, there's just literally no point at all in bothering with the 1400. Even with 100bhp VTR lump in it, unless the car is absolutely featherweight and perfectly sorted in every other sense you're highly unlikely to be wiping the floor with anything.

Given they're so similar and in your own words, you're after a "reasonably powerful engine BUT having plenty of that low down too", I can't understand why you wouldn't start with the 1600 as a base over the 1400.

[KamRacing]

VTR engine with a lightweight battery to counter the weight difference.

[Mi5terSIR]

Originally Posted by D4MJT

The point people are making is that it simply is not worth your time or money to tune the 1.4 lump. The only plausible reason for doing so I can come up with is meet regulations for a particular racing series, but even then an S1 rallye engine would be a better starting point anyway, and it isn't the reason you're doing it.

If you're absolutely heart set on an 8v, simply get a VTR lump, they're pennies and you have your 100bhp out of the box easily enough, with scope for some more power through exactly the same sort of mods you're considering for the 1.4, with a better starting point. I'm not being rude, but there is little point dressing it up, you won't get masses of advice because it's fairly simple to establish why it's not worth pursuing, hence people haven't. Different isn't always better.

If you're all about 'feel' then stick a healthy sorted 1600 8v in it, and spend your money on worthwhile suspension, chassis mods, tyres and brakes, then spend whatever you have left on seat time, you're the single biggest difference to the cars performance you'll make.

As others have stated, with basic exhaust mods, you should be able to see 100-110 from a VTR lump easily and reliably, it's visually no different, the weight will be negligible if there is any difference at all, there's just literally no point at all in bothering with the 1400. Even with 100bhp VTR lump in it, unless the car is absolutely featherweight and perfectly sorted in every other sense you're highly unlikely to be wiping the floor with anything.

Given they're so similar and in your own words, you're after a "reasonably powerful engine BUT having plenty of that low down too", I can't understand why you wouldn't start with the 1600 as a base over the 1400.

yeah if im honest, ive spent so much time researching and googling, many nights i have been up late beavering away pulling every bit of info i can about the 8v engines, i would like to think that i have gained a fair bit of knowledge about them, i would really hate to waste it all.

i would have to just slightly dissagree with the weight bit, i have felt the weight of both, and its quite a difference, so i have come to an idea...i will understand if you roll your eyes because a million people have said it before, but.....alloy 1600? rods from here, pistons from there liners from that and a crank from this...possible? i see these psa engine's are like lego, bits seem very swappable...

i guess the main reason i havent gone to a bigger lump is because i pretty much can't be arsed, i dont have acess to an engine crane, and although i have plenty of seatbelts, a few lads and a big pole and probably could do it before the sun went down, but i just simply can't be bothered, and if i screw something, im pretty stuck.

its become quite the problem tuning a daily driver. never thought it would, but not having a second car (i do, citroen xsara, no engine though, the alloy 1.4 was in that, cracking car btw....) means i dont really have something to fall back on, that among a few other little things keeps me from a swap.

in all i see your point mate, but it just boils down to a bit of "CBA" and not having a fallback.

different is not always better i fully agree, and i probably would be rather happy with a vtr lump, but im also happy with whats in there, and if i can improve on it without tearing the engine out, ill be more than happy, and ive also spent a lot in maintaining it too, new rings, headgasket, clutch, TUD3 liners (bet you didnt know they fit, i sure as hell didnt! they are a fair bit thicker than the TU3 liners, turbo build prep) i have xsi pistons waiting with a set of tidy rods, i suppose i jumped in head first without thinking really, and just bought a lot of bits, so in a way, i have kind of put myself into a corner about which engine im going with without me realizing really...

i admit i may seem stubborn, and i am in a small way, but i have kind of put myself in this corner, so i might as well stay there, at least that is what i have been telling myself.

Cheers

[Mi5terSIR]

Originally Posted by KamRacing

VTR engine with a lightweight battery to counter the weight difference.

would such a battery actually counter the difference? i mean, the vtr lump is a fair chunk heavier, and im just a little curious to how light this battery is you speak of! lol

cheers though ill consider that

[Mi5terSIR]

Originally Posted by Jizanthapus

ahh. i see we have one of those in today.

[Jizanthapus]

Originally Posted by Mi5terSIR

yeah if im honest, ive spent so much time researching and googling, many nights i have been up late beavering away pulling every bit of info i can about the 8v engines, i would like to think that i have gained a fair bit of knowledge about them, i would really hate to waste it all.

i would have to just slightly dissagree with the weight bit, i have felt the weight of both, and its quite a difference, so i have come to an idea...i will understand if you roll your eyes because a million people have said it before, but.....alloy 1600? rods from here, pistons from there liners from that and a crank from this...possible? i see these psa engine's are like lego, bits seem very swappable...

i guess the main reason i havent gone to a bigger lump is because i pretty much can't be arsed, i dont have acess to an engine crane, and although i have plenty of seatbelts, a few lads and a big pole and probably could do it before the sun went down, but i just simply can't be bothered, and if i screw something, im pretty stuck.

its become quite the problem tuning a daily driver. never thought it would, but not having a second car (i do, citroen xsara, no engine though, the alloy 1.4 was in that, cracking car btw....) means i dont really have something to fall back on, that among a few other little things keeps me from a swap.

in all i see your point mate, but it just boils down to a bit of "CBA" and not having a fallback.

different is not always better i fully agree, and i probably would be rather happy with a vtr lump, but im also happy with whats in there, and if i can improve on it without tearing the engine out, ill be more than happy, and ive also spent a lot in maintaining it too, new rings, headgasket, clutch, TUD3 liners (bet you didnt know they fit, i sure as hell didnt! they are a fair bit thicker than the TU3 liners, turbo build prep) i have xsi pistons waiting with a set of tidy rods, i suppose i jumped in head first without thinking really, and just bought a lot of bits, so in a way, i have kind of put myself into a corner about which engine im going with without me realizing really...

i admit i may seem stubborn, and i am in a small way, but i have kind of put myself in this corner, so i might as well stay there, at least that is what i have been telling myself.

Cheers

You make no sense to me.

[Mi5terSIR]

Originally Posted by Jizanthapus

You make no sense to me.

suppose i can see why, i can be arsed to learn. thats something different, you can never know enough, im one of those who prefers to learn a lot more mentally before getting the spanners out, to the point of OCD at times.

i cant be arsed to pull the engine out and swap it, messing around with looms and mounts and all that nonsense, and i haven't really done a swap before, so its not something i want to be taking a learning curve on my only car.