Mobile Devices: Lite Theme Citroën: Citroën Trader | Saxo Trader | C2 Trader Peugeot: Peugeot Trader | 106 Trader Enthusiast: Saxperience


Go Back   Saxperience - Citroen Saxo Forum > Citroen Saxo Related Forums > Saxo Brakes / Suspension / Transmission / Tyres

Saxo Brakes / Suspension / Transmission / Tyres If you have queries or information to share regarding Saxo braking, suspension, tyres or transmission systems, please discuss this within this forum.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 1st September 2016, 07:32   #1
vplehto
Newbie
 
Join Date: Sep 2016
Location: Helsinki / Finland
Posts: 19
Car(s): A lots of, e.g. Saxo 1.6 VTS
vplehto is on a distinguished road
Default What diff would fit to 1.6 VTS and where to get (16/63 ratio)

Hi,

I'm new on a forum so hopefully don't do much wrong and would participate on beneficial discussions.

I have Saxo 1.6 16v VTS rallycar in Finland (56000910).

In the transmission there is 16/63 diff with 16mm axle that I have broken. Bc. of the class requlations I would need to have original or similar to that spare parts for it (close to class N) and I'm having trouble finding parts.

I think I could get new parts, but they are pretty hefty on price so looking alternatives for that.

Is there second hand parts for that or something similar and if, then from where should I look. I've tried all the basic places that I could think of.

Also is it possible to replace it with standard (not reinforced) 14mm diff from some other MA5 gearbox, if so what should I be aware of.

br
VP
vplehto is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 1st September 2016, 08:08   #2
axsaxoman
Saxperience Forum Bum
Track / Motorsport PrepContent Contributor
 
axsaxoman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Scotland
Posts: 3,380
iTrader Score: 1 (100%)
axsaxoman is just really niceaxsaxoman is just really niceaxsaxoman is just really niceaxsaxoman is just really nice
Default

all MA gearboxbox parts swop over with no problem --so any pug /cit MA dif will fit
__________________
when the flag drops the bulshit stops.
owner of GMC motorsport 01671404030/01671403699
axsaxoman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 1st September 2016, 08:41   #3
welshpug
Saxperience Forum Bum
Track / Motorsport Prep
 
welshpug's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: South Wales
Posts: 3,074
Car(s): ZX 16v, 205 GTI, 309 Goodwood, 405 MI16.
iTrader Score: 1 (100%)
welshpug is on a distinguished road
Default

crownwheel is not part of the diff, and should stay with the pinion it was paired with from the factory.


was a Quaife or plate diff not allowed in Group N?
welshpug is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 1st September 2016, 11:57   #4
vplehto
Newbie
 
Join Date: Sep 2016
Location: Helsinki / Finland
Posts: 19
Car(s): A lots of, e.g. Saxo 1.6 VTS
vplehto is on a distinguished road
Default

Tnx for the comments.

So this is the picture of the broken part (dont have better atm)
http://i64.tinypic.com/2dmcy1i.jpg

So from axsaxomans comments, did I understood correctly, that if crownwheel and pinion are not harmed, I could aquire whole diff package from MA box that has 16/63 pinion/crownwheel, even though this diff would be weaker with 14mm pin (std)? Mine is reinforced 16mm (improved std?).

That is what I could get from locally (25000km driven <150£) which is not cheap but would fit the rules even though it would be weaker.

I think I could get new planetary and satelite gear set from citroen with 300£ but I think the picture shows that the "case" itself is fractured, so those gear sets alone would not be enough.

welshpug, I'm not sure, but I think it is not allowed. I've seen how Quaife looks on pictures but no idea on plate diffs.

I'm pretty sure that the crownwheel and pinion are ok and only broken part is diff, but are diff:s also paired with crownwheel/pinion or is it really so that any diff is ok to be placed there.
vplehto is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2nd September 2016, 08:30   #5
axsaxoman
Saxperience Forum Bum
Track / Motorsport PrepContent Contributor
 
axsaxoman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Scotland
Posts: 3,380
iTrader Score: 1 (100%)
axsaxoman is just really niceaxsaxoman is just really niceaxsaxoman is just really niceaxsaxoman is just really nice
Default

in Uk standard dif ratio for 1.6vts was always 14/60
on pug rallye and some early ax sport it was 13/59
I am suprised you are not running one of those lower dif ratios -cos std gear ratios are pretty rubbish for rallying
If not allowed to use LSD --then dif failure will be a common problem simply cos of all the wheel spinning you will be doing
best advice is to use some redline "heavy shock oil "
--very sticky
I will look around my bits could have what you are looking for --ihave thrown out many of these dif when fitting lsd units to std crown wheels --might even have a 14/60 or 13/59 crown wheel +pinion assmbly
__________________
when the flag drops the bulshit stops.
owner of GMC motorsport 01671404030/01671403699

Last edited by axsaxoman; 2nd September 2016 at 08:38.
axsaxoman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2nd September 2016, 08:40   #6
axsaxoman
Saxperience Forum Bum
Track / Motorsport PrepContent Contributor
 
axsaxoman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Scotland
Posts: 3,380
iTrader Score: 1 (100%)
axsaxoman is just really niceaxsaxoman is just really niceaxsaxoman is just really niceaxsaxoman is just really nice
Default

Its a guess on my part --but maybe later diesel g/box also uses the 16mm pin size on planets --then swop crown wheel over--they are a shrink+glue fit as std --my advice would be to add some mig welds as well --i have seen std crown wheels come loose over time +abuse

yes i have found a 14/60 dif +pinion+gear cluster etc
but it is 14mm pin size
I think i have an ax gti box in a shed somewhere which will be 14/60 +the big pin size i think ? not positive +not stripping it to find out .lol
before you ask
__________________
when the flag drops the bulshit stops.
owner of GMC motorsport 01671404030/01671403699

Last edited by axsaxoman; 2nd September 2016 at 08:43.
axsaxoman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2nd September 2016, 08:47   #7
axsaxoman
Saxperience Forum Bum
Track / Motorsport PrepContent Contributor
 
axsaxoman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Scotland
Posts: 3,380
iTrader Score: 1 (100%)
axsaxoman is just really niceaxsaxoman is just really niceaxsaxoman is just really niceaxsaxoman is just really nice
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by welshpug View Post
crownwheel is not part of the diff, and should stay with the pinion it was paired with from the factory.


was a Quaife or plate diff not allowed in Group N?
you can only buy it as part of a complete dif from citroen or pug --but yes it is removable+ no they are not matched at factory -you buy them seperately --silly i know -but thats how it is

but yes you want a pair from a box --cos over time they have changed the helical angle --so check they match up in straight line
__________________
when the flag drops the bulshit stops.
owner of GMC motorsport 01671404030/01671403699
axsaxoman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2nd September 2016, 09:06   #8
axsaxoman
Saxperience Forum Bum
Track / Motorsport PrepContent Contributor
 
axsaxoman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Scotland
Posts: 3,380
iTrader Score: 1 (100%)
axsaxoman is just really niceaxsaxoman is just really niceaxsaxoman is just really niceaxsaxoman is just really nice
Default

looked at your picture and failure reason is the usual one
excessive wheel spin causes wear on cast iron dif housing --you will have seen grey colour of gear oil .if you had looked before it broke
gears move back out of mesh untill the tips cannot transmit the power == then bang
so this had nothing to do with pin size on planets --just general abuse to dif spinning wheels over time --when saxo,s were sold with free insrance to 18year olds --it was quite common to hve them trying to claim under warranty --for this when you knew for sure they were doing doughnuts in car parks ----best one i had was 2 brothers -both bought 1.4 west coasts --both destroyed g/boxs in under 10 k

were very upset when citreon said no --maybe they should not have posted the dougnuts up on u-tube !!!
__________________
when the flag drops the bulshit stops.
owner of GMC motorsport 01671404030/01671403699
axsaxoman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2nd September 2016, 12:09   #9
vplehto
Newbie
 
Join Date: Sep 2016
Location: Helsinki / Finland
Posts: 19
Car(s): A lots of, e.g. Saxo 1.6 VTS
vplehto is on a distinguished road
Default

Tnx for superb comments + info.

from my first post 56000910 was the last numbers from vin so if you have access to service.citroen.com you can check that it is 16/63 I have with 16mm pin. We have this v1600 class in Finland and it's close to N. Rules say, gearbox have to be unmodified. So no possibility to change diff too much so thats what we have to work with.

I would of course tighten up the final drive if possible as it is now mainly 2:nd and 3:rd gear and rarely 4:th and 1:st, but by the rules it is not possible. For training I have had other ratios.

And yes, for that I used redline, not the stickiest one though.

axsaxoman, I know that tearing a part box to check the pin is an job, so not going to ask anyone to do it unless the plan forward is clear enough how to do it untill end. If the plan comes up to that it is reasonable job and doable and not too expensive for anyone then I might ask. But would like to have clear plan how it will go, I mean that it is clear that with that plan, I can manage to fix the box... Hope that maked sense.

>but yes you want a pair from a box --cos over time they have changed the helical angle --so check they match up in straight line

Crap, is this how it sounds. So it it might be that I'm not able to use my 63 crownwheel with all the diff gears? And I will have to check it somehow?

>looked at your picture and failure reason is the usual one
excessive wheel spin causes wear on cast iron dif housing

Yep, on gravel and ice, I don't think it's much of an issue as they pretty much run same speeds, but on tarmac it is. Thats where it broke of, training hairpins for the sprints after track day.

>you will have seen grey colour of gear oil
Yep, redline is so expensive, that I filtered out the grey stuff it ocasionally and put the best parts + little new in. Not too often that way though. I do have tried to run it as clean as possible, like change after 300km or so, same for engine.

>if you had looked before it broke gears move back out of mesh untill the tips cannot transmit the power == then bang

That makes a lot of sense, I do belive every word on that.

>so this had nothing to do with pin size on planets --just general abuse to dif spinning wheels over time

Yes, I didn't mean it was bc. of pin. With the 16mm 14mm pin, I was just merely asking that as 14mm pin diffs are easier to find, can I put them in the box with 63 crownwheel.

Ok, but what would be the suggestion for fix to me as the requirements are:

- standard diffs (so I could think it doesn't matter 14mm or 16mm, as long as it is Citroen or similar spare, not enhancement)
- 16/63 ratio + gears have to be what is stated on the inspection sheet (dont have it now, but it is what sevice.citroen.com says)
vplehto is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 7th September 2016, 12:07   #10
axsaxoman
Saxperience Forum Bum
Track / Motorsport PrepContent Contributor
 
axsaxoman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Scotland
Posts: 3,380
iTrader Score: 1 (100%)
axsaxoman is just really niceaxsaxoman is just really niceaxsaxoman is just really niceaxsaxoman is just really nice
Default

my only comment would be that in uk they have NEVER used that dif ratio in a 1.6 16v vts EVER
only ever 14/60 or 13/59

max speed at revlimter _std tyre size 185.55x14 or 19 would 142mph @7250 --not that std car with std bhp could ever get there .lol
tyre sizes185x55x14 or 195x45 x15 on later cars
__________________
when the flag drops the bulshit stops.
owner of GMC motorsport 01671404030/01671403699

Last edited by axsaxoman; 7th September 2016 at 12:10.
axsaxoman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 7th September 2016, 17:53   #11
welshpug
Saxperience Forum Bum
Track / Motorsport Prep
 
welshpug's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: South Wales
Posts: 3,074
Car(s): ZX 16v, 205 GTI, 309 Goodwood, 405 MI16.
iTrader Score: 1 (100%)
welshpug is on a distinguished road
Default

European VTS can be anything, often an 8v non sport box on Michelin steel wheels.
welshpug is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 8th September 2016, 09:01   #12
axsaxoman
Saxperience Forum Bum
Track / Motorsport PrepContent Contributor
 
axsaxoman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Scotland
Posts: 3,380
iTrader Score: 1 (100%)
axsaxoman is just really niceaxsaxoman is just really niceaxsaxoman is just really niceaxsaxoman is just really nice
Default

hi welsh ,
yes i had a customer tell me once that vts was only made in 1.4 8v -- and as a vts can be anything --then why not the right g/box for that engine
unusal that regs just say std citreon parts

--that is what all rally regs say in that sort of formulae in most countries +as you are part of europe can,t see why they would not accept std vts spec from any EU produced car
top speed at rev limter must be well over 150 mph with that dif --totally useless for any form of motorsport
__________________
when the flag drops the bulshit stops.
owner of GMC motorsport 01671404030/01671403699
axsaxoman is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 17:58.