[HOW TO] 16 valve Conversion (with Pictures)

[djrem]

General rule is:
same year. it will fit regardless.

References:
VTS PARTS PDF (http://www.asbomotorsport.co.uk/files/saxovtsengine.pdf)

16V CONVERSION FORUMS (http://www.106rallyeforum.com/forum2008/forumdisplay.php?f=110)

Use this rule for Engine, Looms, Driveshafts

I've used Colins how to guide as a skeleton:
http://www.saxperience.com/forum/showthread.php?t=84099


Tools you will need:

Engine crane
A LARGE selection of tools
A ball joint splitter
Electrical tools (just in case)
Trolley jack
Axle stands
A mechanical-ish brain!


A 16v will fit straight in most Saxo/106s no problems. Just get the 16v engine from the same year as your car and same ECU. There are 2 main types of ECU, a Single Plug and a 3 Plug.

I.E 1998 single plug 16v into a 1998 single plug VTR/1.1/1.4

BEFORE REMOVING YOUR ORIGINAL ENGINE
Immobiliser, just simply start your engine and then pull your immobiliser out from under the fuse box and this unlocks the ECU and lets you use the 16v one which will need unlocking. I recommend Blue Hawk Electronics in Nottingham for unlocking the 16v ECU. Then shut your engine off, and then restart it to see if it’s worked! But if you have an after market immobiliser instead, then I believe this is not necessary, BUT do it anyway!

Didnt do that?
Then for £93 (85+POSTAGE) Blue Hawk Electronics will unlock your ECU to work with any key.

Details here:
http://www.bluehawkelectronics.co.uk/

I did my conversion over the span of a month. When you have your VTS/GTi engine, now is the best time to change and clean alot of the parts.





The conversion is really easy. You will need:

Engine
Gearbox
Unlocked ECU
Wiring Loom
VTS Lower rear engine mount
VTS transmission engine mount
NON-VTS/VTR Drivers side mount
VTS throttle cable
VTS exhaust manifold

Ideally you would also need:

VTS Radiator
Top Radiator hose (lower VTR hose you can cut to length)
VTS fan setup

Also:

New engine oil
New gearbox oil
Coolant

And also get anything else to perform a complete service.

First step is to remove your original engine.
Remove front bumper
Remove slam panel
http://photos-200.ll.facebook.com/photos-ll-sf2p/v73/81/114/503085200/n503085200_270711_2309.jpg

Using an engine hoist, lift the car shell up via the rings at the front as shown below:
http://photos-d.ak.facebook.com/photos-ak-sf2p/v78/81/114/503085200/n503085200_779127_1006.jpg

Undo the lower engine mount located next to the exhausts connection of the center section and the manifold.

Now the way i took my 1.1 out was then undoing the drivers side mount then supporting the transmission and undoing the passenger mount (under the battery).

As you undo that mount, the transmission will drop so bear that in mind.

Having the car on axle stands, lower the engine down with your hoist onto a wooden board.
(we let it drop and then skipped our lump)

let the engine sit on the floor.
Hoist the car back up, and drag your engine on the board out from beneath the car.

The VTS/GTi Lump
Now is the best time to upgrade your clutch regardless of its current condition as you'll see how much easier a clutch change out of the car is than in for the sake of £70 for a clutch.

Heres the one we took out and the new one:
http://photos-b.ak.facebook.com/photos-ak-sf2p/v135/81/114/503085200/n503085200_1498925_3785.jpg

Clutch changes are simple enough.

Clutch Change Overview

First remove all wiring around the Starter motor and transmission
(Get a picture so you know how YOUR wiring sits)

Now at this stage, I also painted my engine block and transmission black.

Remove your starter motor
-Two bolts on the block side
-one bolt from the transmission side

Remove Transmission
-4 bolts iirc on the transmission side
-1 bolt from just below the starter motor side

Dont pull it off just yet

there is a little metal plate with a small bolt holding it in place at the bottom of the flywheel from the block side at the front of the engine.

Remove that and it will drop out.

Pull out the transmission.

Un-do the six hex bolts to your clutch.
remove old clutch and pressure plate

Your engine will look something like this:
http://photos-d.ak.facebook.com/photos-ak-sf2p/v135/81/114/503085200/n503085200_1506527_1526.jpg

Clean up your transmission and re-fit:

Clutch and pressure plate in one piece with a clutch alignment tool to the flywheel.

Replace the bearing in your transmission side with new one in your clutch kit.

Re-fit transmission in reversal of removal taking care not to move the clutch lever as you fit it.


back to the VTS/GTi fitment

put straps around the engine and postition it next to the car:

http://photos-200.ll.facebook.com/photos-ll-sctm/v155/81/114/503085200/n503085200_1694240_254.jpg

You need to do some customising now.

Get your drivers side mount off of your 1.1 engine and remove the top drivers side mount from the VTS/GTi lump.

When its fitted it will look like thisL
(The mount in the picture to the right is the one we removed from the 16v engine)

http://photos-200.ll.facebook.com/photos-ll-sctm/v155/81/114/503085200/n503085200_1694247_2717.jpg

You make the non 16v mount fit by removing the bolts from the 16v mount and cutting them down to size.

Cut them with a nut already on them so when you have them to size, undoing the nut, cleans the thread and checks it will fit correctly.

Bolt this to the engine ready to go in.



Make sure your car is all ready for you.

Fit the drivers side mount (non 16v one)
Fit the passenger side one too.
Leave the lower bottom mount on the 16v engine

http://photos-200.ll.facebook.com/photos-ll-sctm/v155/81/114/503085200/n503085200_1694241_621.jpg


Using the engine hoist, lift the car in the air like before.

Use axle stands to support the car incase anything gives.

having the engine on a board (we used an upturned pallet), drag the engine under the car when you have enough clearence.

lower the car onto axle stands.

use the engine hoist to drag the engine into position.

lift the engine up and onto the drivers side mount.
next jack up the engine into the passengers mount

Tighten nuts

your drivers side will now look like this:
(other than flat arches, another way to tell if your car wasnt an original 16valver)
http://photos-200.ll.facebook.com/photos-ll-sctm/v155/81/114/503085200/n503085200_1694246_2392.jpg

Now that you have 2 of the 3 mounts in,

jack up the rear of the engine behind the sump.

You need to fit this baby:
(bolt to the right)

http://photos-200.ll.facebook.com/photos-ll-sctm/v155/81/114/503085200/n503085200_1694245_2060.jpg

this fiddly bastard goes in with a wiggle of everything and a hammer.


There you go. fitted.

Now plug it all back in and you are ready to roll.

Back to colin:



The car runs very hot with the VTR cooling setup so I would advise getting the VTS cooling setup.



For the fuel return, you can simply plug the hole with a screw and thread lock.
But ideally you want to run a fuel return from the fuel rail back to the tank. And also use all the correct pipes and fuel pressure regulators. VTRs have an FPR on the tank. Simply do away with that FPR and plumb a line back to the tank/pump.

There are different types of fuel tanks for the Saxo. Some already have a return facility plumbed in. Your best off finding out which one you have before you tackle the fuel return. It’s a simple job but very frustrating! And you have to think about it.

Some Saxos run OK without a return, but from personal experience, mine does not run very well. So I plumbed in the return.

Wiring is dead easy. Plug the main harness in that’s behind the nearside headlight and plug in all the other necessary items in like fuel pipes, gear linkages etc.

All driveshafts from a VTR will definitely fit the VTS gearbox, although some have different splines than others and maybe ABS. But if you get the engine from the same year as your car, then there should not be any problems.

Hope this helps people that were in the same situation as me.

Regards

Rem

[steviet]

nice guide mate. its decent with pictures aswell

[frankie]

rem......thank you.

[Wayne]

top guide rem:y:

[Strikevts]

Rep your way rem for the time and pic's on this guide. Good job mate :)

[stevenet15]

good guide rem should help stop some of the questions normally asked on here. there was a indepth step by step guide to 16v conversions on the rally register with wiring diagrams

[djrem]

good guide rem should help stop some of the questions normally asked on here. there was a indepth step by step guide to 16v conversions on the rally register with wiring diagrams

Im not a member there :(

may be good to keep this thread updated with as much related info as possible :)

[MaRiO89]

Great guide!

[smearsvtr]

great guide mate spot on

[yerdusk]

Nice work there matey, im sure this will come in handy for many people!

[teebag]

should be made into a sticky or posted in the how to guides section. great guide.

[pubert]

cheers:y:

btw, does anybody know how much a garage would charge to swap the engine, if you had all the parts?

cheers

[djrem]

cheers:y:

btw, does anybody know how much a garage would charge to swap the engine, if you had all the parts?

cheers

£1500 normally.

Wont be a normal garage as when you get a price for an engine conversion, they rebuild the engine

[OLLYVTS]

Great guide rem,this should help a few people out on here.

[williamsvts]

why did you take the front end of the car off?? no need to, you only need to use the 1 vts engine mount aswell, just the upper engine mount.

[Japman]

well done rem

good effort

[djrem]

why did you take the front end of the car off?? no need to, you only need to use the 1 vts engine mount aswell, just the upper engine mount.

when you buy an engine it will come with the mounts already attached unless otherwise stated from a breakers.

The mounts are exactly the same on the 1.1 and vts models other than the drivers side upper mount.

the front end of the car came off to allow access to minimise any damage.

Working on a car utilises Murphys Law : If it can go wrong, it probably will.


Plus with the bumpers off, its easier to get photos of how to do it.

[williamsvts]

The mounts are exactly the same on the 1.1 and vts models other than the drivers side upper mount

thats why i asked why you said to use lower engine and gearbox mounts.

i've never took the front end off in the conversions i've done. only takes me 12 hours aswell.

[AdamH]

someones showing off now :p great guide tho

[djrem]

The mounts are exactly the same on the 1.1 and vts models other than the drivers side upper mount

thats why i asked why you said to use lower engine and gearbox mounts.

i've never took the front end off in the conversions i've done. only takes me 12 hours aswell.

thats great.

im sure someone like you pretty much doesnt need this guide then.:homme:

If the 1.1 mounts worked before, best using them than the ones attched to an engine thats turned up on a pallet like mine did that could be suspect

[Hewitt]

Really Helpful Guide

[djrem]

Updated The References Section

[Tim_1]

With regards to the engine mounts when converting from a vtr to vts(mk1) which ones will i use ? im guessing
top left - vtr mount,
gearbox top right and bottom - vts mounts
am i correct?

[coolj522]

ok ive done a vts conversion into my 2003 vtr, ive blocked the fuel return off, however it is running like f**k all!! im nt too sure on how to go about the fuel return tho, could someone please help??

thanks!

[williamsvts]

its running like fuck all??? does that mean its not running or its running shit?

[Colin]

With regards to the engine mounts when converting from a vtr to vts(mk1) which ones will i use ? im guessing
top left - vtr mount,
gearbox top right and bottom - vts mounts
am i correct?

ECU mount you need the VTS one :y: all the others are fine.

[onzakieron]

Just a quickie.

If I'm running a 2000 vtr atm, if I got any old GTI engine, what else would I need to make it work, e.g if it was a 03 plate 3 plug and mile was a 96 1 plug. Don't know if they exist but just to get the example..

If the engine and car were the worst match ever what would I need extra?

[ChrisT]

Could you please update the pics as there not working anymore some of em

[gavbey]

ye pics dont seem to work any more , thanks

[Geetie_Donny]

im in the middle of a gti conversion for my quiksilver, my car is a 1 plug ecu n my 16v is 1 plug ecu!!! and i have the engine loom 2, do i need 2 worry bout the main loom inside the car or is it all the same?

[djrem]

ye pics dont seem to work any more , thanks

Could you please update the pics as there not working anymore some of em


Make sure you are logged into facebook.

[djrem]

just logged into facebook and the photo sections down at the moment.

Will update when its available.

if i dont do it within days, pm me to get my finger out.

[Colin]

im in the middle of a gti conversion for my quiksilver, my car is a 1 plug ecu n my 16v is 1 plug ecu!!! and i have the engine loom 2, do i need 2 worry bout the main loom inside the car or is it all the same?

The only loom you change is the engine loom. The interior loom can stay put :y:

[willsy]

With regards to the engine mount thats under the ECU it would be well worth keeping the VTS one on the car and getting the appropriate mounting bracket welded on in order to do this (lesser modelled 1.0 and 1.1 has a more basic mount as you've pointed out but im sure this was uprated by Citroen for a reason)

To get the correct mounting bit you cannot buy it direct from citroen but if you do a bit of calling around local scrappys where a 1.4/vtr/vts has already had its engine removed then with a good drill bit and a screwdriver you can take the bracket off and get it welded onto your car fairly cheaply.

Also with the fuel return line a 1.0 and a 1.1 is fortunate enough to already have a return line plumbed in (kinda helpful there) so this is really easy to get around.

For 1.4 and vtr owners you can get the return lines from a scrappy (theyre a pain to remove) or you can buy the parts new from citroen and feed them into your car relatively easily by following the supply line from the engine bay to the pump or vice versa.

If anyone wants the part numbers for the fuel lines i can find these out for you if needed

[TU-Tuning]

Lots of awesome info in here. Rem when youve got the pics back up could you post in the thread so it comes up on my subscription thing, then ill download it to a document.


Willsy, any idea if the 1.4 has the strengthened lower mount?

[willsy]

Willsy, any idea if the 1.4 has the strengthened lower mount?

The bottom gearbox one?

[TU-Tuning]

Just generally actually, trying to tot up all the costs now, apart from the obvious ones like engine, box ecu etc etc

[willsy]

The 1.4 has all the correct mounting points needed without any potential need for modification :y:

[turbotom]

Im a bit confused on the engine mount front lol. Got a MK1 vtr single and i have a single VTS engine to go in. The mounts at first glance look exactly the same. Is this my dodgy eyes fooling me lol

[willsy]

Im a bit confused on the engine mount front lol. Got a MK1 vtr single and i have a single VTS engine to go in. The mounts at first glance look exactly the same. Is this my dodgy eyes fooling me lol

Theyll be the same on yours Tom

Drivers side (under ecu) mount is the only one that varies

1.0 and 1.1 have a very basic mount which is easily identifyable as it doesnt have the 'domed' shape on top or a noticeable spot welded on bracket.

1.4/vtr/vts all have the larger domed shape mount which bolts onto the spot welded bracket on the inner leg.

Ill try and find some pics of mine (should be some in my engine progress thread)

[willsy]

here you can see the top section of the ecu side engine mount on the floor with the orange dome on top (standard colours are either green or black from what i remember)

and you can see the bracket which is welded onto the inner arch where it bolts onto

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v260/Willsy86/Photo-0305.jpg


ok heres a better pic:

how the inner arch section looked without the bracket

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v260/Willsy86/Photo-0295.jpg

this is the donar bracket which i got off a VTS (you can see that its spot welded on)
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v260/Willsy86/Photo-0300.jpg

bracket sat into place ready to be welded onto my shell

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v260/Willsy86/Photo-0301.jpg

[willsy]

If anyones interested in reading up a bit more on mine my progress thread is on the following link with plenty of pics throughout

http://www.saxperience.com/forum/showthread.php?t=84693

[turbotom]

thank you matey thats great!! thats cleared that up for me now lol

[djrem]

Willsy, ive lost my facebook album with my conversion in, you ok if i used some of your progress pictures in the first post?

[willsy]

Yes Rem thats fine by me :y:

[jpsaxo]

The 1.4 has all the correct mounting points needed without any potential need for modification :y:

Im not sure on this Matt, the flat arched 1.4's may have the basic mount there :y:

Something for people to check anyway!

[djrem]

the 8v engines have the same mounts as the 16v

its only the drivers side that needs modification.

[vtr-richie]

99 vtr would i need to weld a new bracket on i though it was "bolt in"

[willsy]

99 vtr would i need to weld a new bracket on i though it was "bolt in"

VTR has all the correct brackets needed already mate

[Dagger]

ok, the guides are great, the info is fantastic, however, lacking something i am struggling with.

i have the 106 GTi engine, ECU and engine bay loom - i have put them into my Saxo 1.6i VTR both 1998 models.

there were 5 wires that came out of the fuse box in the engine bay when removing the VTR setup, the problem i have is identifying those wires.

i am begining to feel maybe a secondary fuse box in the engine bay as i have no idea what to do.

i turn the ignition and the dash lights up..... thats all, i cant find a VTR specific diagram so i can identify what the wires are, and when / if i suceed in doing that, how would i wire my 106 GTI loom into the fuse box??

any ideas guys?

[johnlambert]

needs an update

[Matt67]

Bring back Rem

[BradShifty]

Great thread but pitures stopped working dont spose they could be re uploaded???

[cj_99]

its nice to see people do still search good on you :D,

unfortunatly rems banned now :( so he wont be re-uploading the picys

[stu-n-shell]

this has helped loads specivicly willsys post.

[BradShifty]

anychance the picture could be found and re-added on this thread as it is really well writen and thought out but picture help too :D

[citroen_saxo_vtr]

It cant be that simple? fuel pipes? hoses?

[sufc_paul]

good read will come in useful im sure ;)

[littleo13]

one word genius well put mate actually makes sence aswell :D nice 1

[littleo13]

quick question can i still convert my 3plug vtr to single plug vts????

[tecwenlovesfood]

Great guide mate cheers

[Goose]

the 8v engines have the same mounts as the 16v

its only the drivers side that needs modification.


VTR has all the correct brackets needed already mate

If I have a 2000 VTR and putting a VTS engine in, do I need any additional mounts or brackets?

Thanks

[pepsimax]

very usefull! will be doing this later this year) hopefully

[blainej]

says you need a gearbox on te list could i just ue my vtr box? and about uprating breaks are vts and vtr breaks same as standard as im going to be slowly building it up

[Jack]

says you need a gearbox on te list could i just ue my vtr box? and about uprating breaks are vts and vtr breaks same as standard as im going to be slowly building it up

Yes you can use the VTR box, and yes the brakes are the same, except the VTS had ABS.

[ReecieT]

cant see the pictures on this, am i the only one with this problem?

[Misterk]

cant see the pictures on this, am i the only one with this problem?

Can't see them either :n:

[CHAOS-THEORY]

can anyone tell if this adds any Power to the car ? like the small 1.1 ?? i guess it cnsumes more fuel also..

[W343NNA]

can anyone tell if this adds any Power to the car ? like the small 1.1 ?? i guess it cnsumes more fuel also..

Adds no power what so ever.:homme:

[CHAOS-THEORY]

added to brain queue :homme: (:

[martcambs]

Thanks for the guide this is something im going to be doing soon and every bit of info helps .

[Devil106]

Hello guys
Seeking complete wiring for conversion

106 s1 1.3 rally to the 1.6 16v

thanks

[Devil106]

hello guys, I also try, wiring for converting from s1 1.3 rally in 16v. can you give me a hand?

[Phatax]

Hi all, I have just acquired a 106 quicksilver with a vts engine. (Single plug ecu)
Unfortunately it doesn’t start. Has no spark or fuel pump. Apparently it has the saxo ecu and the saxo key and transponder are plugged in and strapped up under the dash. Where do I start is my question? Thanks