Rebuilding a High Mileage engine.

[Ste]

If i was to buy a High mileage VTS engine, say 80,000 miles, and i rebuilt it what sort of things would i need to change? Well when i say need what would you recommend.

Ill be doing the following anyway; re-bored, head skimmed, new pistons, con-rods, cams, valves & reseated, balanced bottom end.

Also instead of reconditioning the gearbox id buy a lower mileage one.

Then the usual stuff of gaskets, fluids and bolts etc but not sure what else would be on the list.

[vidal]

If i was to buy a High mileage VTS engine, say 80,000 miles, and i rebuilt it what sort of things would i need to change? Well when i say need what would you recommend.

Ill be doing the following anyway; re-bored, head skimmed, new pistons, con-rods, cams, valves & reseated, balanced bottom end.

Also instead of reconditioning the gearbox id buy a lower mileage one.

Then the usual stuff of gaskets, fluids and bolts etc but not sure what else would be on the list.

Timing belt and water pump.

V.

[Quick]

If you are rebuilding are you fitting uprated parts?
e.g forged pistons
sump baffle?

[jpsaxo]

If changing pistons you might as well get high comps as they are cheaper than standard pistons ;)

Do all bottom end seals, main + big end bearings, thrusts, cambelt kit inc idler tensioner etc,

Drop me a PM i can get you these type of bits at bargain prices :P

[Ste]

Yea forged high comps as it will be boosted.

jp how much would i be looking at overall, my budget for the rebuild is £1200 thats including forged pistons, rods and the gearbox. But not the engine.

[jpsaxo]

What spec gearbox? Pistons are £500, rods no idea, PM me exactly what you want and i'll get you prices for seals, cambelt kit, gasket, bearings etc

[MaRiO89]

If you were leaving it std i would say just new piston rings for the bottom end and a new oil pump..

Its the head which needs attention in a rebuild really..

New cams, valve springs, all seals and gaskets etc..

[frankie]

thinking of doing the same as ste,

where can i get all the various parts for a rebuild?

[MaRiO89]

jpsaxo..

He is gona help me when i get round to it..:(

[jpsaxo]

Cheers James, yep give me a buzz and i'll see what i can do for you....

Why cams James, you dont need to change them, its mainly the seals that where out, bottom and top end...

[Colin]

If running a turbo you will need low compression pistons.

[leeK9]

sounds a lot cheaper to just find a good low millage one tbh

[Ste]

sounds a lot cheaper to just find a good low millage one tbh

True but id be rebuilding most of it anyway as im going boosted.

My list as it would seem is now;

Low Comp Pistons + Forged Conrods (Including piston rings etc)
Skimmed + Ported Head (New valves, springs etc)
All Seals (but haynes and JP will have to assist there haha)
Bearings :panic:
Cam Belt Kit (tensioner etc)
Water Pump


Also what clutch do you recommend, in the end the BHP should be around 200 - 220BHP and the car will be light but not total stripped ie with front speakers & blowers.... (carbon bonnet, tailgate, polycarb windows & rear totally stripped)

ETC means i dont know what goes around that lot so just tell me ;)


Ill be using the Standard VTS gearbox so i don't have big expense when it comes to replacing it from chewing them to bits.

My budget is £1200 which isn't alot really. So ill be buying 2nd hand parts that are in good nick and salvaging what i can.

[jpsaxo]

Willsy has a brand new water pump you might be interested in, i can sort your seals and bottom end bearings, cambelt kit inc tensioner pullies etc

[Quick]

Vts box could be a bit short for that level of power!

[bullit]

rods are gonna be 4-500 aswell

[Roxy_DazVTR]

To be fair if i were u and u were going to be rebuilding a vts engine, why dont u turbo prep it, in other words, steel headgasket i think thats the only extra to what ur already doing and i would think it should hold out for a t25 turbo, pritty simple to do aswell! loads of guides to look at

[pug205gti87]

if you was not turbo'ing it. i would take the head off. decoke the valves regrind them back in. new rings new seals new gasket and new rings. that is all i would do

[AXracing]

80,000 mile engine should be fine if looked after. They can see over 150,000 miles if looked after. I have had several TU engines with over 180,000 miles and were all still running and not burning oil.

If you start swapping bits you should replace or recon all the parts in direct contact. For instance if you swap a cam you should get new flowers. If you replace pistons you should get your bore rebored or honed depending how bad it is. If your getting new rods you should get new bearings and inspect the crank and so on. Use all new fixing, gaskets and pumps. Never reuse a gasket, belt or head bolt.

Avoid used parts especially pistons cams and so on. Also avoid cheap bits from mail order only. If you cant afford to get new engine parts for a established retailer such as GMC, Longman, QEP or the like you cant afford it.

Saying that I know plenty of people that are running 200bhp (at fly) from a standard engine with twin repair gaskets. As long as you keep it cool and don’t let it under fuel you should not have a problem.

[jeeves_101]

iirc, wossner do low comp turbo opistons and forged steel H section rods.

think it's £850 for - pistons, piston rings, con rods, rod bolts and gudgen pins.

[rushy_23]

If you do go ahead with this Ste you will have to let us know how you get on.
Would like similar bits uprated in mine when the time comes.

[Joesnow]

True but id be rebuilding most of it anyway as im going boosted.

My list as it would seem is now;

Low Comp Pistons + Forged Conrods (Including piston rings etc)
Skimmed + Ported Head (New valves, springs etc)
All Seals (but haynes and JP will have to assist there haha)
Bearings :panic:
Cam Belt Kit (tensioner etc)
Water Pump


Also what clutch do you recommend, in the end the BHP should be around 200 - 220BHP and the car will be light but not total stripped ie with front speakers & blowers.... (carbon bonnet, tailgate, polycarb windows & rear totally stripped)

ETC means i dont know what goes around that lot so just tell me ;)


Ill be using the Standard VTS gearbox so i don't have big expense when it comes to replacing it from chewing them to bits.

My budget is £1200 which isn't alot really. So ill be buying 2nd hand parts that are in good nick and salvaging what i can.

Just thought I’d point out that skimming the heads the last thing you want if you’re going boosted.

With a budget of £1200 don’t expect it be reliable! I wouldn’t bother rebuilding the engine with expensive parts… just stick in a couple of the thickest headgaskets like what axracing mentioned, get a cheap turbo and manifold and spend the most of the money on a massive radiator, oil cooler and sorting the fueling out.

That will be you’re budget spent so you will probably have to make do with the standard clutch…

If you treble that budget I still wouldn’t have high hopes for a completely reliable car tbh

[bullit]

basic or all out

[MaRiO89]

I think mines gona die soon..120k..

Although it gets looked after and serviced regularly and warmed up how Citroen say etc it gets a hammering on trackdays and sometimes on the road..:(

Cant afford the new engine build at the moment either..:panic:

[willsy]

Rebuilding to meet the spec that you'd like to get if running boost £1200 is an incredibly small budget.

On mine ive spent £3,000 already on the engine conversion with remaining parts inc mapping adding up to a further £2,000

All this just for a reliable (hopefully) runner on N/A setup with around 150bhp all being well.

Forged pistons, conrods, rings will top over £600 easily to start with.

How much knowledge do you have with the engine, are you confident with timing, regrinding valves etc or would you have to pay out on labour?

My bill from QEP for headwork including 708 cams, followers, new seats and seals with regrinding and skimming was £800

Then cambelt kit is £70

New headgasket kit approx £70

total all in for my seals and bearings etc was about £200

My timing and having bores redone will cost about £250 in total

Gearbox ill be spending extra by having a rebuilt on with warranty rather than 2nd hand.

Clutch kit is £50 minimum as standard so unsure how much higher that would be if you need a better one of those

.................................................. .............................

All of the above is what ive encountered with doing mine so far. Its very very easy to go well over initial budget figures and it all mounts up.

Best of luck with everything though, Josh (jpsaxo) and his thread is a very valuable source of info :)

[jpsaxo]

I think mines gona die soon..120k..

Although it gets looked after and serviced regularly and warmed up how Citroen say etc it gets a hammering on trackdays and sometimes on the road..:(

Cant afford the new engine build at the moment either..:panic:

Just keep treating it well james it SHOULD be fine :) No more track days untill the new engines done would help as well ;)

Yep Matt has the most up to date project so his budget should be about right by the time you come to do yours!

[MaRiO89]

Just keep treating it well james it SHOULD be fine :) No more track days untill the new engines done would help as well ;)

:P

I wont be doing anymore trackdays no..Not until the new engine is done..

Will still get some road abuse though..;)

John from GMC said once that the TU's are bullet proof, everything about them are strong etc..If this is the case, i can only imagine valve train wear causing the only high mileage issues..

I hope nothing snaps, i.e conrod..:panic:

[jpsaxo]

The bottom end is near enough bullet proof James, especially with standard limiter!

[MaRiO89]

Good stuff..

Will see if she holds on for abit longer yet..

It runs lovely, abit tappy but thats normal..Also starts nice and sweet too..:d

[jpsaxo]

Get some STP in her, stopped my tapping on the 1.4 a treat :) It really did do a good job, and still producted the goods @ 82bhp with de-cat and induction kit with 100k on the clock....

[MaRiO89]

:d

It will be interesting to see the mileage it does..:P

[jpsaxo]

My brothers westy has over 100k on it and made 70+ @ wheels (so over 90 @ fly) with a small 270cam unmapped, decat and manifold, induction kit, so they are bloody good engines!

[Ste]

After a few quotes and you lot of brutal fuckers giving me good info im gonna have to wait till after christmas for the serious parts so i can expand on the budget. Hopefully before chrimbo comes and goes i can have the head done - dependant on if i have the cash for the cams. Then after chrimbo the uprated head bits.

I was quoted;

Ported, Polished
1mm Oversized valves & Double Valve Springs
Lightened, Balanced Crank
All Gaskets & head bolt set.
Skimmed

at £1000.

So add to that at least another 2 grand for forgies, conrods, cams, Standalone & it all mapped up Possibly 2.5. Which brings me to a nice round sum of;

£3500

And that doesn't include the cash for the Turbo and manifold.

Ideally ill be doing the work i can do myself to keep costs down, hence waiting for winter when theres fuck all to do but be cold.

I can do the boost pipes, fit the turbo and plumb it in, fit the engine together, i can't do cam timing but a mate can. So id be able to get it all to a stage where its just ready to be mapped up and properly setup.


And onto another question....

Say the engine makes 210bhp, fitted with a heavy clutch. Would you have the flywheel lightened and balanced? Or will this just make my life a misery when setting off.

[Joesnow]

On a budget just focus on the key points imo:

Lower the compression ratio – low comp pistons/ thicker head gasket
Improve the cooling system – bigger radiator and oil cooler
Sort the fuelling out – stand alone ecu, bigger injectors etc

All the other things you’ve mentioned I wouldn’t even consider before those three key points are seen to. I don’t know why you keep going on about having the head skimmed??

I wouldn’t bother with lightening the standard flywheel…

[jonezy]

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/CITROEN-SAXO-VTS-16V-TURBO-MANIFOLD-STAINLESS-STEEL_W0QQitemZ120153659674QQihZ002QQcategoryZ7220 5QQrdZ1QQssPageNameZWD1VQQcmdZViewItem

theres your manifold £260

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Saxo-1-6-16V-Turbo-Forged-Pistons-Steel-con-rods-set_W0QQitemZ180166675067QQihZ008QQcategoryZ72205Q QrdZ1QQssPageNameZWD1VQQcmdZViewItem

pistons and rods £855
thats near as dammit £1200 blown already

if you know what turbos fit then see if any of them can be bought from america as they will be much cheaper

[jpsaxo]

Dont buy pistons and rods off ebay

[jonezy]

unless there a reputable brand (the ones i exmpled arnt i know)

IE: farndon, eagle,hossner

[Ste]

I don’t know why you keep going on about having the head skimmed??




Why wouldn't you skim the head of a high mileage engine?.

Most mechanics keep telling me i should have it done.

[John]

Why wouldn't you skim the head of a high mileage engine?.

Most mechanics keep telling me i should have it done.

Exactly id deffo get it skimmed no point in doing all that work not to bother skimming it and find out its wrapped.

[gary_j]

Why wouldn't you skim the head of a high mileage engine?.

Most mechanics keep telling me i should have it done.

I think he means dont skim the head so it raises the compression. If your buying low comp pistons it would be pointless skimming the head to bring the compression back up again

[Ste]

How much would the head need to be skimmed at a minimum to leave a flat surface & how much would that increase the compression.

Ive no idea so i can't make an 'educated' decision lol!