VTS -vs VTR

[luthor1]

Hi all,

on this forum, what are peoples thoughts as to the number of VTR drivers against the number of VTS drivers? A logical progression to offering tuning and ECU solutions to the VTS owner is to devise a sister package for the VTR.

Kind regards
Andy
RCD - Performance

[b0t13]

there are alot more vtr drivers than vts drivers, so theres is a bigger market tbh, tho vts drivers have bigger willies ;)

[Barry123]

this is a joke surely.

this is the 29billionth post on vtr vs vts.

[Karl]

totally agree with the above.

....love,
a bigger willied VTS owner. ;)

[Colin]

I have a VTR............









With a VTS engine!

[RCD-Performance]

this is a joke surely.

this is the 29billionth post on vtr vs vts.

No joke, we need to know if there is a decently sized market out there for VTR tuning packages.

[jpsaxo]

Lol Colin. I'm assuming you mean in terms of power?

If you are considering a package you have to consider how much it costs to get the extra power. To go from an early vtr engine to a vts engine thats a 30bhp upgrade instantly - with the possiblity of higher tuning prospects in the future - and only costs say £1,000 max.

So any package you put together bhp per £££'s is going to have to gain 30bhp, there or there abouts and costs NO MORE than £1,000 imo - thats me putting my business head on.

People may want to stick to the 8v engine, e.g. alot of the 106 rallye guys like to stick to 8v - i'm not sure if thats the case with saxos?? - you would have to do a bit of market research.

I know a fair few people who have converted i.e. myself and Colin as prime examples.

[Barry123]

No joke, we need to know if there is a decently sized market out there for VTR tuning packages.

my bad. i didnt read the thread properly man, in fact i never read any thread properly. then determine a post based on the title.

ads

[oakesy22]

Thought id give some veiws on this,

Wht would a Vtr driver pay £1,000 for a upgrade when you can purchase and fit a vts engine for less than a £1,000 and still have change left to put mods on the Vts engine yes the insurance will be a little higher but you have more play with the Vts engine rather than trying to get the maximun out of the Vtr engine!

[Sophia_Bush]

vtr has more torque, so much so it torques steers in 5th as once a infamous person on ssc said

[williamsvts]

there are a lot of people on here that wont do an engine swap, cant do an engien swap or imo a lot of cases are their parents wont let them as there are a lot of younger people on here aswell.

[jonny13_vtr]

i would say that there would be enough people wanting packages for the vtr including me. I like the idea of tuning what ive got. 8v power :y:

[Karl]

vtr has more torque, so much so it torques steers in 5th as once a infamous person on ssc said

I dont know if your taking the mick or not but the VTR has less torque than a VTS,
read Ryans Sig.

[williamsvts]

he's taking the piss..................

[Predator_R32]

lot of people get VTRs for insurance purposes, thats what i did, i tas about 2500 for a vts and 1400 for a vtr, no way was i paying that although i did see a vts for a few grand cheaper when buying mine, sometimes i wish i did that bought the vts and pay the extra insurance

a vts engine will be in my car sometime next year though :y:

[Barry123]

vtr has more torque, so much so it torques steers in 5th as once a infamous person on ssc said

is that what they call torque steer????????????????????????????????????????????? ??????????????????

[Morgan_VTR]

adsayer @fucktardon tbh

The only way Id mod my VTR is to get mods that could be put onto a VTS, buy for the future tbh.

Ive got a VTR - yea Im 17 so insurance on a VTS simply is not feasible.

And I would say there are much more VTR's than S' on here.

[luthor1]

Once we've completed and evolved the Plug-n-play ECU solution for the VTS model, we would be looking at the VTR very closely to see what would need to be changed to offer the same standard solution.

As a technical exercise, I'd be interested to see what could be achieved with head/cam/ecu/exhaust and filter. Most people go for the exhaust and filter straight away, but the ECU cost prohibits going much further without an unfeasible financial outlay.

Basically we would be stomaching the development and "experiment" costs to see what sort of bang-for-buck could be achieved at each point.

I did think there was a VTR market out there, one which would steer clear of the VTS engine transplant. You get to the point where you just sell-up, put your tuning budget with the sales price and go and purchase yourself a VTS.

After the VTS is well developed, we will move on - watch this space.

Andy
RCD-Performance

[nikolashewitt]

i agree. many of the drivers on here are young and could only get a half decent insurance price on a vtr, but most of them will in no doubt upgrade to a vts in the future anyway.

like the guy said it will have to match the vts instantly anyway so 30bhp in some cases and then a little more, to actually make it worth their while ;)

[Mike_08]

lot of people get VTRs for insurance purposes, thats what i did, i tas about 2500 for a vts and 1400 for a vtr, no way was i paying that although i did see a vts for a few grand cheaper when buying mine, sometimes i wish i did that bought the vts and pay the extra insurance

a vts engine will be in my car sometime next year though :y:

im only 19 and have the same plan DOWN with insurance:n:

[Sophia_Bush]

if you want more power out of a VTR very simple ways to get another 30bhp for not much more money if you know which bits to use to get the best out of it

[mikevtr]

I have tuned my vtr up to around 125bhp at the flywhheel on my mk2 and pepole have said to me that they give vts's a good chase i have fitted a raceland induction kit and love the sound makes me smile every time

[VtsTom]

I had a xsi box in one of my old vtr's, totaly transformed it. First mod to any vtr imo

[ryhornvtr]

I have tuned my vtr up to around 125bhp at the flywhheel on my mk2 and pepole have said to me that they give vts's a good chase i have fitted a raceland induction kit and love the sound makes me smile every time

Sorry if im wrong but are you claiming to have 125bhp from just a raceland induction kit?

The gearbox is the worst bit on a vtr, then maybe the cam. Good gains can be had out of it but it really isnt worth it when you can buy a vts.

[luthor1]

What's "wrong" with the gearbox?

[Dasher_VTR]

£500 pound on mods to a mrk2 vtr engine will get you on vts power or above.
i would be interested in a package for a VTR.

[Barry123]

£500 pound on mods to a mrk2 vtr engine will get you on vts power or above.
i would be interested in a package for a VTR.

and it'll still be slower because of the taller ratio on the gearbox

[jpsaxo]

What's "wrong" with the gearbox?

Whats right with it?

Its one of the longest as far as ratio's go

[williamsvts]

£500 pound on mods to a mrk2 vtr engine will get you on vts power or above.
i would be interested in a package for a VTR.

are you saying £500 will get your vts power or asking?

[Steve]

most have vtrs, i had to get a vts as said vts drivers have bigger willies.

Agree with previous posts most people wont do an engine swap so there is the market for the vtr. I dont see many vts's round my way maybe 1 or 2 the rest are all vtr's and there is 1000's of them round here.

[williamsvts]

my pipe is too big for a vts, so i had to get a nova :P

[Yates]

williams - 500 would get you vts power in a vtr...by that im guessing buying a vts engine to stick in it

[carlos45]

i was thinking of just sticking an S engine in my VTR, but i would also like to get my VTR up to or above the power of a VTS. but thats where it would stop unless i start spending silly money ie, Turbo, TB etc...
im basically torn between a VTS engine, or stay faithfull to my VTR engine and take the CAM and Re-map (chip) option, either option would cost pretty much the same for me. I have a VTS gearbox in at the minute and it made quite a difference off the mark, but high Revs on the motorway annoy me.

[ryhornvtr]

to mod a vtr to 120bhp would cost £1500 imo, thats if you fit the parts yourself, and im not even counting the gearbox to make the most of the higher revs.

I really cant see how you can offer any package at a cheaper price to a vts engine swap. Just go by what josh said.

[Dasher_VTR]

Cams, remap, exhaust, air filter and decat i have have nearly got it all on my car for £550 just waiting for remap so will see but i should be at vts by now anyway. only have to gain 20bhp i have a mrk2.

the thing about engine swapping is your insurance is higher than having just a vts because it's not a vts plus the reliability aint all that good imo there is always a thread in the problems page to do with a vts conversion.

[luthor1]

Personally, I'd be uncomfortable selling engine mods that produced 150bhp (say) where I knew it would be used on a car with rear drum brakes.

I think there is an obligation here to note that Citroen felt the VTS needed rear discs at that power level, so I'd probably say that 130bhp upgrades would be the limit we would offer initially.

The VTS is there ready and waiting for when your insurance comes down as you build the NCB and get older, so just enjoy cutting your teeth on the VTR, then move up!

120-130bhp would be a 33% power increase, which I think would be fairly do-able.

[DaxVTR]

Personally, I'd be uncomfortable selling engine mods that produced 150bhp (say) where I knew it would be used on a car with rear drum brakes.

I think there is an obligation here to note that Citroen felt the VTS needed rear discs at that power level, so I'd probably say that 130bhp upgrades would be the limit we would offer initially.

The VTS is there ready and waiting for when your insurance comes down as you build the NCB and get older, so just enjoy cutting your teeth on the VTR, then move up!

120-130bhp would be a 33% power increase, which I think would be fairly do-able.


thought the VTS did have rear brakes? i think the brakes are good enough for a VTS and certainly for a VTR :s it doenst need mashooosive brakes casue its only a little light weight car with abit of power :s.

[RCD-Performance]

You misread dude, he says "Citroen felt the VTS needed rear discs at that power level"

When he says about being uncomfortable with 150hp he means on a VTR with rear drums.

[DaxVTR]

You misread dude, he says "Citroen felt the VTS needed rear discs at that power level"

When he says about being uncomfortable with 150hp he means on a VTR with rear drums.

ohh :oops: sorry :x

[RCD-Performance]

:panic:

[AXracing]

I have not read all the post. but I will can say:

Its just as easy and cost as much if not less to gent enough power out of rip your MA gearbox apart from a VTR as a VTS. The VTR would be a dam sight cheaper to inshore as well.

Also the cost to get a VTR up to the pace of a VTS is minimal and easier that having to sell your car and then get your self a good VTS.

Unless you get good VTS engine with all ancillaries for next to nothing then a engine swap is not practical too.

If you want power with out boost you may as well just stick a EW engine fitted. It does not cost as much as people say it will be reliable and a dam sight cheaper than getting a NA VTS engine to run close to that power with any sort of life span.

Though I do still like the VTS. Its just in no way the only way to go.

[James]

There is a market for vtr drivers, but your going to need 2 kits.. one for the mark 1 and one for the mark 2 as they both run different cams etc. If thats feasable why not..

RCD - VTR's don't have rear drums... Furio's do :eyeroll:

As people have said, the problem your going to have is convincing people not to throw a VTS lump into the VTR, because it's cheaper and in the long run it's going to benifit them more in the future. I personally would not buy a kit for mine, maybe a year or so ago I would but I am past caring for saxo's now.
Have 2 vtr's, and I have a bigger smile on my face beating a VTS owner in my VTR than beating them in a VTR/S.

[97vtr]

i got rear disc brakes on my VTR wtf is everyone on about....id be happier beating a VTS in a VTR simply to show that there isnt much difference between the two its all just numbers imo and it also depends on the driver and how well they listen to their car tbh...........not saying i wouldnt take a VTS if i had the money but im well happy with my VTR!!

[Ross-1987]

I have a VTR............









With a VTS engine!


So you have a big penis and a small foreskin......

[Ross-1987]

Didnt someone post thaat there 23,000 VTR's registered in the UK, and 2,000 VTS's?

Thats 10 times more VTR's than S's surely VTS's will become short and start to disapear as people write them off every week!

[Pat_Vts]

Didnt someone post thaat there 23,000 VTR's registered in the UK, and 2,000 VTS's?

Thats 10 times more VTR's than S's surely VTS's will become short and start to disapear as people write them off every week!

plus ragging it and breaking it and not being able to afford to repair it thus selling for spares DOH!

[vts-yes]

id be interested in a throttle bodie package for a vtr.

[d4r3n]

haha nice one rossSo you have a big penis and a small foreskin......


i dont see the point in spending too much money on the vtr engine just to get it to the vts power my self rather just do the engine conversion or buy a vts and lump it with the insurance as i did...

[RCD-Performance]

Guys, the question asked was, how many people have VTR vs how many have VTS. Not how big your cock is or what gearbox is better.


keep it on topic please.

[d4r3n]

theres a bigger market for vtrs for sure you see plently about

[RCD-Performance]

i think i tend to agree.

I have been having a thought and have been considering the possibility of offering a VTS conversion package, (drive in drive out VTR to VTS conversion with new HG, cam belt and fluids.) in conjunction with VTR upgrades, to give people a choice between:

New Engine.
Or improving the VTR engine.

Would this be something people would be interested in?

[d4r3n]

i would say that alot of vtr owners would do this espeshily with the new cambelt and fluids thing will help to because i no a couple people with vtrs what want a vts engine in but dont want to buy one from a scrappy and then getting someone to do it so yeah that would be good i think

[RCD-Performance]

i will look into sourcing good low mileage engines and see what i can find out

Will report back in RCD Section regarding these possibilities

[alextoffie]

Tbh mate i think from a business point it definitely makes sense to do it. There are miles more VTR's around than VTS's, and like its already been pointed out not everyone is keen on the idea of the engine swap for a variety of reasons. If you did a good performance package for it i know i'd be interested - and i wouldn't hesitate in saying i bet you'd shift a hell of a lot more of them than you would upgrades for the VTS. When someone asks about real performance upgrades for their VTR's these days 90% of people just say "put a VTS engine in it"... And i do see where they're coming from but as we all know its not that easy!

Just a side note - VTR's come with rear disks, i think the only difference is that the ABS was optional rather than standard like on the VTS.

[liam_b]

i think i tend to agree.

I have been having a thought and have been considering the possibility of offering a VTS conversion package, (drive in drive out VTR to VTS conversion with new HG, cam belt and fluids.) in conjunction with VTR upgrades, to give people a choice between:

New Engine.
Or improving the VTR engine.

Would this be something people would be interested in?

i would be interested in that but would it only be vtr to vts you will doing if it goes ahead?

[RCD-Performance]

Tbh mate i think from a business point it definitely makes sense to do it. There are miles more VTR's around than VTS's, and like its already been pointed out not everyone is keen on the idea of the engine swap for a variety of reasons. If you did a good performance package for it i know i'd be interested - and i wouldn't hesitate in saying i bet you'd shift a hell of a lot more of them than you would upgrades for the VTS. When someone asks about real performance upgrades for their VTR's these days 90% of people just say "put a VTS engine in it"... And i do see where they're coming from but as we all know its not that easy!

Just a side note - VTR's come with rear disks, i think the only difference is that the ABS was optional rather than standard like on the VTS.

VTR upgrade packages are in the pipeline matey, just going to have to wait a bit while we sort out our VTS Car.

They WILL arrive its just a question of getting round to it!

i would be interested in that but would it only be vtr to vts you will doing if it goes ahead?

we will offer a package price for VTR-VTS engine conversions however if it fits, it can be fitted, for obvious reasons pricing is hard to judge, depending what you want.

[alextoffie]

Glad to hear you're onto it :)

[petevts16v]

there are alot more vtr drivers than vts drivers, so theres is a bigger market tbh, tho vts drivers have bigger willies ;)

lol, genius

[Stubbsy]

So out of interest, and not hijacking the thread, merely being conversational, is this response from a new ebay seller, bollocks?

When asked about potential gains on my 01 VTR with he remapping, he wrote:

Hi
If you come to me the price is £225,
You would gain 15bhp and 20nm of torque,

Regards
Alex

[furiomike]

sounds optimistic.

remap alone youd more likely get 5bhp or soemthing like that. at a guess.

[Stubbsy]

My thoughts exactly. If something looks too good to be true, it normally is.

[RCD-Performance]

A remap is only as soon as the guy who maps it!

We have a target of around 155-160FBHP on our demo car with just an exhuast, induction, and our ECU, and a GOOD map.

Thats a gain of between 28-33bhp over stock.

So if you think of:

Exhuast 10ish BHP
Cold air inlet 4-5ish bhp

so the ECU should produce the other 13-18 BHP

Now thats not "un" "do-able"

People dont seem to realise how benificial a decent ECU can be!

Obviously our dyno graphs will prove or dissprove this soon!

[jpsaxo]

A remap is only as soon as the guy who maps it!

We have a target of around 155-160FBHP on our demo car with just an exhuast, induction, and our ECU, and a GOOD map.

Thats a gain of between 28-33bhp over stock.

So if you think of:

Exhuast 10ish BHP
Cold air inlet 4-5ish bhp

so the ECU should produce the other 13-18 BHP

Now thats not "un" "do-able"

People dont seem to realise how benificial a decent ECU can be!

Obviously our dyno graphs will prove or dissprove this soon!

Very much doubt you'll achieve that, simply because i've never seen anything over 135 from said mods. You'll 99% need cams to achieve those figures, but as you said will be interesting to see what happens....

[brad_vts]

its not true that vts drivers have bigger willies, i now own a seat leon cupra tdi and i still have a big cock at just under 8 inches

[Oo_ben_oO]

i have a vts in a blue colour

[luthor1]

135fwhp from intake, exhaust and ECU remap? The car makes 120bhp as standard. I think we would be disappointed to change the air filter system and the restrictive exhaust and cat and map it ideally for 99 V-Power and only see 12% power increase.

But as ever - if that's what it dyno's at, then that the answer :)

[EM07_BEN]

Just wondering, but if i had a budget of £800, and a Mk2 VTR, what would be my potential power gains? I ask this because once I pass my test and am fully comfortable with my car, I would like to have the power to beat standard VTS's! Cheers, Ben

[EM07_BEN]

And I don't want to put a 16v VTS lump in it. Insurance will be pricey enough already.

[elmartha]

Was it the mk1 Vtr that had drum at the back then?

[Ryan]

Dredging for oil?

[Manolis]

Very much doubt you'll achieve that, simply because i've never seen anything over 135 from said mods. You'll 99% need cams to achieve those figures, but as you said will be interesting to see what happens....

My Vts has cams, custom ecu,custom pistons,group n exaust,induction and some others which i cant translate them from Greek to English and it's about 160hp (150 whp).You cant achieve 150 with only induction exaust and custom ecu. With those three parts a vts is around 135 hp

[henryvtr]

my vtr made 93bhp at the wheels with mani and exhaust and custom induction kit. vts standard is 95-98 bhp at wheels. so not far from their figure for very little money.