vtr (98bhp) possible to produce 150+ bhp not your usually how fast will it go thread!

[saxo-vtr-17]

Hi all i have a 98bhp vtr, i have a dilema the vtr doesnt seem to excite me when i put my toe down anymore so i have two options either build a vtr that can produce in excess of 150bhp or buy a clio williams. i really like my vtr and its only got low milleage (33k) so dont really want to put a vts engine in it. Lets say for example if i had £3000 to put into it engine wise could i produce say 160bhp. Or would this not be possible. any help will be appreciated especially from the turbo'd saxo owners out there, does anyone not what the most powerful vtr is running at? .Tom

[Coonper]

For 3 grand i would say you would make 160 bhp, either with the use of a turbo, supercharger or throttle bodies.:y:

[luthor1]

Head, Cam, throttle bodies, exhaust manifold and full exhaust and mappable ECU will make 150bhp at the flywheel. I'm certain we could do all that for under £3,000. You may hit around 155-158 even.

You'd not need to go turbo for this project.

Andy
RCD Performace

[CJ_Saxo]

I have the exact same target for mine pal..... if you have that much to spend consider this turbo... its a 40bhp increase minimum and its relatively cheap...

http://www.cituning.ltd.uk/Turbocharging.aspx

Just give that a browse... i think its about grand and a half for the basic turbo, but no doubt you will have to pay for labour as well on top of that unless you DIY.

[luthor1]

The turbokit there has no intercooler, the manifold (as usual) is stainless steel which means at some point in the future is *will* crack. There is no mention of how fuelling will be supplied and managed. It seems like a reasonable entry kit (as they advertise) but be aware it will require many hours and many more parts to have a working reliable car at the end.

+25-30bhp is extremely easy with regular tuning methods.

If 150-160bhp was my target I would simply not consider a turbo at all.

Andy
RCD Performance

[CJ_Saxo]

I myself had two options.....

The turbo... direction

Or keep it N/A but change throttle bodies.... CAMs... some sort of chip in the ECU... 4-2-1 manifold....etc etc

Is that direction better mate?

[luthor1]

In my experience, NA power is preferrable in terms of the driving experience than a turbo ever is. The throttle response firstly, is extremely good on a TB 8-valve setup, crisp, sharp and instant. The turbo will lag, will come on boost mid-corner.

Furthermore, the heat generated and engine stress will be higher on any turbo application.

Personally for the "saxo package" I think going turbo is not something I'd do. As an engineering feat, it's a great challenge and I'm sure there are some awesome engineers making enormous power out of the engines, but for me, especially when the poster is looking in the 150-160 region, I would *never* turbo for that power output.

Andy
RCD Performance

[CJ_Saxo]

Thank you for the help... i know which route to go down now....

Cheers pal

[luthor1]

RCD Performance will be doing a VTR demonstrator project after our VTS one, so if you can hold off for a short amount of time you will see the power development process unfold and then be in a position to make purchasing decisions without risk.

If you'd like your car to be the demonstrator "donkey" then I'm sure we'd come to some arrangement when it comes to the bill!

Andy
RCD Performance

[CJ_Saxo]

I would love to see that car once its done!!

[Quick]

A N/A Vtr with that power would be very unlikly to pass the MOT emissions section!

I'd go for a Clio Williams! Old school classic - will hold it value if looked after!

[luthor1]

Removing the CAT makes it pretty impossible for any car to pass the emissions test. There is no reason not to retain the CAT and stock exhaust in the garage, and have a special ECU map to assist when the customers come to MoT time.

Andy
RCD Performance

[lukesaxokid]

as Andy has said NA is the way to go, cheap turbo packages are only asking for trouble and will suffer in areas already mentioned. the clio is a nice car though mate, if you can find one in decent nick.

[Coonper]

Why would anyone in their right mind spend £3000 on a saxo?!?! Thats not to mention the cost of buying it in the first place.

Get a clio 182 cus then you have 180bhp staight away!

For 5k or whatever your gonna spend why not get an evo or impreza then you have 300bhp and a MUCH better car!

[Ryan]

you said 160 later in the thread.

160bhp from TBS on an 8v you are in dream land unless you want to spend huge money. The cam needed would be a very peaky cam imo and no real use in the real world.

the rallye reg has several high spec 8vs on bodies and even they are fighting to hit 150bhp with NA tuning and not going mental with the wallet.

TU engines do not see huge % increases in power like red top engines for example when bodies are fitted.

[saxo-vtr-17]

Thanks to all that have posted i am still un decided off what to do, andy where is your company based yeah i will consider letting my car be the "donkey." Yeah ive had a look at those package turbo kits before at to be honest i ent really impressed, is the vtr engine able to with stand that increase in power thanks Tom

[saxo-vtr-17]

In my opinion the new clio's look shit and if i were to get a clio it would be a clio williams as already stated yeah impreza's are nice but there common how many people have vtr's producing 150bhp+ .Tom

[Quick]

In my opinion the new clio's look shit and if i were to get a clio it would be a clio williams as already stated yeah impreza's are nice but there common how many people have vtr's producing 150bhp+ .Tom

Easiest (& cheapest) way to get an R to 150bhp.
Remove 8valve engine
Replace with 16valve engine
Add camms, manifold, change to enclosed induction with decent filter.
Remap (or if your feeling flush standalone)!

Bake at gas mark 5 for 15 minutes

Et Voila!

[Ryan]

In my opinion the new clio's look shit and if i were to get a clio it would be a clio williams as already stated yeah impreza's are nice but there common how many people have vtr's producing 150bhp+ .Tom


quite a few 8vs pushing over that, most are supercharged.

[VtsTom]

No disrespect but at the end of the day its common sense.

If you want a big power NA 8v then fair enough.

Your going to need a lairy cam, strong valve springs, vernier pulley, awesome head job, decent exhaust manifold and system, some form of bodies and a stand alone ecu. When you think bodies and ecu alone are nearly £2k with vat, a decent head is upwards of £500 if you take it people who actualy know how to do a good job. Then you have cam choice, exhaust options and all the money spent on getting it mapped. At the end of it you would have a nice 150bhp 8v for £3k+

On the other hand, source a low milage JP4 16v lump of Tam, get that fitted, £1000 max. Decent exhaust and filter £1000 max. Cams and a remap £1000 again. The you have 160bhp with LOTS more potential for further mods.

To me, i want the MOST power i can aford. Quite simply, the 16v is the only way to go. Bang for £ you will not beat it.

[leeds106]

285 cam,valve spring,pulley and remap,4-1 manifold,filter and exhust should see you with 130+bhp


after that your gonna be spending big money to gain more power tbh


im gonna be going the 285 route sometime this year but with a 266 cam in mine its made 124bhp on a couple of rolling road days and it pulls pretty damn nicely also :)

[Ryan]

Quick moderating post. All posts - 'why do it to a saxo theyre shit buy another car' will be deleted. They have no relevance to the question asked, are not helpful and just cause arguments.

thanks.

[Ryan]

when tuning, especially if you want to go NA you are better off chasing a useable powerband and drivability IMO rather than pub bragging rights with bhp figures.

[leeds106]

yup totally agree ive come across plenty of cars that make higher peak power but ar slower or no quicker simply cos the peak power they make is right before the rev limit so totally unuseable power tbh

[Ryan]

yup totally agree ive come across plenty of cars that make higher peak power but ar slower or no quicker simply cos the peak power they make is right before the rev limit so totally unuseable power tbh

why alot of the rallye 8v engines are not to peaky and run good times. Penis length from being quick on track there is more important rather than max bhp lol!!!

Theres interesting info on 16v catcams and useable power bands coming out soon after dyno work being done by qep.

[luthor1]

Thanks for the good moderating post Ryan.

I totally agree, the 8valve is a driveable tuning package, and will cope with a lairy cam better than a 16V due to inherently higher port gas speed.

We are definitely talking about a "great" head-job, and decent throttle bodies and ECU.

RCD will be developing a throttle body/RCD ECU combination for the VTR, and I can *assure* you that it will be a chunk of money cheaper than £2000 inc fitting etc.

I believe RCD will be able to make a 150+bhp Saxo VTR for under £3,000 drive-in drive-out. That is our target. Again with our transparency, we will either succedd or fail! Either way we will honestly report our results

Andy
RCD Performance

[Ryan]

andy i take it that for the cost you will be using your own inlet manifold and a set of bike bodies to keep the cost down? rather than the high costs of jenvey bodies and then using the current ecu you are developing?

off topic.
i said to rcd the other week if you guys ever need any photography of the cars taken for a website give me a shout as im often training in southampton.

[VtsTom]

Tom, if you really are thinking about getting a clio williams, have a look on the owners site. Get fully clued up, have a drive of a couple and see how you feel. It would also be worth trying to hunt some one down who has a 150bhp saxo just have a little ride in. £3000 is worth a bit of research.

Dont know about you but one of the things i really like about the saxos is the fact that rust problems are pretty minimal. Clios tend to rott on the arches pretty damn quick

[luthor1]

Ryan,

I envisage our VTR solution with throttle bodies to use the same PnP ECU from our VTS with a slight mod to the wiring loom to accommodate 4xinjectors.

The throttle bodies are being made to our own specification and will be Direct To Head. On the VTS we will be utilising the existing fuel rail and injectors to keep costs down for the customer... oops must stop giving things away!

Andy
RCD Performance

/off topic - liaise directly with Ross over PM for our phone numbers regarding your photography work, we are very interested, but since I have zero style it's better off you talk to him :)

[Ryan]

DTH spec sounds good to me, best angle from valve to trumpet tip, and irc the old gmc jenvey SF kit used the OE fuel rail aswell.

[mellor]

ooo hot stuff this... in all fairness though id much rather stick with my little 8v with her little mods thats probably struggling to break 100bhp than start shelling out on TB's turbos etc... I can see the attraction as my VTR's only done 31k but i couldnt bring myself to spend £3k on it just to get it to 150bhp! Buy a VTS/GTi and a pair of cams etc... just my opinion and probably what ill do when i *eventually* get bored of my VTR

Matt

[luthor1]

It's a lot to do with the economies of scale. If *lots* of VTR owners wanted 150+bhp then that service price would come down.

Swapping out for a VTS engine of semi-unknown history and origin, whilst wrecking (potentially) your light insurance loading, getting rid of a perfectly good 31k miles 8-valve engine... I can see the appeal to have a go at tuning what you've got.

I'm reading on these boards people spending £8,500+ on a VTS project to take it to 185bhp, some may say that is excessively expensive £ for BHP.

I certainly think we will hit within 8% of that BHP figure for around 1/3 the money on our demonstrator.

Andy
RCD Performance

[Ryan]

the big money comes from the extra 8% though.

when you equate to the forged pistons required to run the lairyer cam on the 16v engine to eliminate valve to piston intercourse. And many other parts to strengthen the engine that will be revving 8k plus.

catcam 734s, good headwork, forgies and a set of tbs could easily see big big and decent lb figures and not be to peaky.

8.5k is only really longmans engines.

id say 8.5k would give you a good engine plus diff, cage, suspension etc..

[RCD-Performance]

I believe we could produce an engine making 300bhp for that ammount of money.

EDIT: Oh dear, now ive opened the worm can

[Ryan]

I believe we could produce an engine making 300bhp for that ammount of money.

EDIT: Oh dear, now ive opened the worm can


NA 1600 TU 300bhp...




computer says no.

boosted then yes.

[RCD-Performance]

Boosted yes, not NA.

But i believe it would cost us no where near £8k to make the VTS engine produce 185-190bhp.

[Matrix]

The problem I have found these days is there is no where you can use 150+ bhp unless you book a track day! I would personally rather have FUNCTIONALITY over performance lol

[RCD-Performance]

I tend to disagree, the law says 70mph, but it says nothing about how QUICKLY you get there )

[Sophia_Bush]

turbo ftW!!!! utterly amazing torque

[Ryan]

Boosted yes, not NA.

But i believe it would cost us no where near £8k to make the VTS engine produce 185-190bhp.

1k Bv head
4-500 Pistons
400 cams

depending on if using 734s or going more wild adding in the cost of solids that would be required to run more than them.

then the bodies ecu and mapping shouldnt come to more than 2.5k at an extreme max!

so i agree. Ive not seen anyone on here other than lewis with that sort of engine cost mentioned though.

[Ryan]

I tend to disagree, the law says 70mph, but it says nothing about how QUICKLY you get there )

yeah but you need to make sure you have the powerband with the gearbox to use be able to get there quickly.

[RCD-Performance]

For road driving i dont think that matters really.

My road car produces around 320bhp when running 18psi. And never fails to put a smile on my face.

[Ryan]

For road driving i dont think that matters really.

My road car produces around 320bhp when running 18psi. And never fails to put a smile on my face.

its boosted though, having a peaky NA engine and the wrong gearbox will be utter crap for road driving. whats the point in only having power after 4.5k when you dont have enough space to get there and because the gearbox is wrong the rev drops put you out of the powerband?

[luthor1]

Obviously speaking before development has escalated properly on our project VTS, I was astonished as to the short durations people were running as a limit. Upon further investigation, I've found that the cam follower is quite a shy diameter, hence on this engine it's necessary to ramp up the duration if you want more lift due to excessive force on the opening ramp. Normally I'd aim for a *genuine* 270 degrees duration with 11-11.5mm lift, but the cams just don't exist, that's because the followers are too narrow.

On the 8-valve engine, we are not expecting to suffer a narrow power band due to the high port speeds inherent on an 8-valve engine, so I don't see any problem pushing the duration beyond that which is normally associated with the 16-valve.

Upon reading the thread on the other pages where the 809 cam is being used with solids and new springs, the user there is reporting a very tractable bottom end with no chugging or low torque drop. This is what I'd expect.

I wonder what else our investigations will turn up for this engine? It's very exciting.

The 8-valve tuning is the next demo car, so we'll soon see! The 3-plug VTS ECU is the next PnP after the 1-plug VTS, then in parallel with that the 1 and then 3-plug VTR ECU's.

Andy
RCD Performance

[leeroybrown]

who the feck is going to spent 8k on getting a 320 bhp saxo

No one in there right mind tbh

[MaRiO89]

As for driveability..

Foggy's 150bhp 1400 is lovely once its heated up..

Just like a normal car really..

[Ryan]

As for driveability..

Foggy's 150bhp 1400 is lovely once its heated up..

Just like a normal car really..

doesnt foggy have a quaife gearset?

[MaRiO89]

Ye i think so..

[Ryan]

Ye i think so..

which changes the drivablility of the car alot.

[leeroybrown]

isnt his a rally car

[Ryan]

indeed.

[Matrix]

I tend to disagree, the law says 70mph, but it says nothing about how QUICKLY you get there )

yes it does...lol wreckless driving and driving without due care;) I not saying don't do it lol I am just building a Monster Mini that I know will be a pig to drive but I doing it anyway:P haven't got to much know how on the saxo's...YET

[leeroybrown]

cant compare that to a fast road car then tbh

[Matrix]

corse you can it is a fast road car...
http://www.matrixv6.co.uk/assets/images/cooler-install.jpg

I have plans for the Saxo as well:p

[luthor1]

Ah - the good old A-Series.

I had one of those... Freeway built, rally head, Kent 286 cam, 1 3/4" Metro carb, LCB Manifold, RC40, Aldon Dizzy, lightened and balanced bottom end, Omega pistons, 1380cc, aaah the memories!

We had 6x13" Superlite alloys with Pirelli P7F tyres, they had so much grip! Hi-Lo trumpets, Spax adjustable shocks, Metro 2-pot 8.4" Discs and calipers, Superfin rear brakes, poly bushes, solid subfram mounts, and the old engine stabiliser after we went through about 3 manifold cracks because of the engine rocking!!

What's your spec?

Andy
RCD Performance

[bullit]

who the feck is going to spent 8k on getting a 320 bhp saxo

No one in there right mind tbh

saxodaffy ;)

[AXracing]

VTR to over 150hp NA is not hard.

GMC big valve race head.
Alpha throttle bodies.
Throttle body linkage,
Sensors for bodies,
Fuel rail,
Injectors,
GMC inlet manifold,
Alpha stand alone management,
Adjustable pulley,
Air filters,

Combine that with a exhaust, fast road cam and a good mapping you will see well over 150bhp. I have the top list of parts for sale for not a lot as don’t race anymore. I also have race cams for sale but you would have to cut valve clearance in to stock pistons to use them.

[mellor]

if im honest... my VTR is nippy enough for me... plenty of poke for driving around my way. I got owned by a scooby the other day big time but then again i was (only doing 60 officer) pushing on for a ton and he screamed past me like i was stood still on an A road, coming up for a corner... call me a wimp but if im honest (again) if i had 300bhp id be dead... simple! Dont get me wrong ive spent money making my car "faster" but its all pub banter at the end of the day isnt it :P

That said id love a DRIVEABLE 150bhp 8v... donations welcome :)

[MaRiO89]

Ryan - I'm talking about pulling away and in the low rev ranges, its not always trying to stall and shit..

[Raz]

can anyone else give any more info on the topic? im intregued, as i might consider this for my car....

[medz_vtrturbo]

turbo ftW!!!! utterly amazing torque

i agree

its not all to do with bhp, u gotta have the torque:y:

[dan_vtr]

after seriously considering my options a few years back, i have to say i disagree with both n/a tuning and turbo'ing on the tu engine. whether it be 8v or 16v. the best bang for your buck is going to come form a supercharger conversion..

power delivery is just as linear as n/a, if not more so, and the peak output will be very similar to a turbo setup (maybe slightly slightly lower with exactly same spec/boost,etc)

just my 2P's worth

[dan_vtr]

ps ; will be around 3k for a good setup to... :)

[luthor1]

Supercharging puts a proportionally more hefty premium on insurance than traditional NA tuning, so that may be a decider for a fair few people.

Andy
RCD Performance

[gazza808]

ps ; will be around 3k for a good setup to... :)

Where are you looking?

a decent setup costs Circa... £4339.04

thats not fitted or set up..

then you can add low comp pistons ontop of that
steel rods
standalone ecu if you dont want 5th injector setup.

its not as cheap as first made out.

[vtr130]

1k Bv head
4-500 Pistons
400 cams

depending on if using 734s or going more wild adding in the cost of solids that would be required to run more than them.

then the bodies ecu and mapping shouldnt come to more than 2.5k at an extreme max!

so i agree. Ive not seen anyone on here other than lewis with that sort of engine cost mentioned though.

Mine is quite expensive!! But all worth it now with the sponsorship :)

[vtr130]

I would just like to add that ryan is a gaylord!!

Also you wont reach 160bhp n/a with an 8v!! unless big money is spent and you want an unuseable engine! Id go for forced induction.

[AXracing]

you wont reach 160bhp n/a with an 8v!! unless big money is spent and you want an unuseable engine! Id go for forced induction.

Not if your getting all parts new and paying some tuner £40+ a hour labour. But it can be done.

[RCD-Performance]

I believe 160 is not excessively hard to achieve on the VTR Setup.

[vtr130]

I say you believe wrong ;)!!

Without spending 6-8k i doubt you could do it! Although there is a 180bhp 1.4 i believe. Ryan will tell you the spec of sandy's car.

[gary_j]

The 205 hillclimber Sandy bulit was 16v tho, not 8v

[RCD-Performance]

I say you believe wrong ;)!!

Without spending 6-8k i doubt you could do it! Although there is a 180bhp 1.4 i believe. Ryan will tell you the spec of sandy's car.

£8k! where do you get your figures from!:homme: ;)

[AXracing]

Strange that, My 1360cc 8V got 160bhp with out spending 8k. AXnutty (AKA Charlie) got over 140bhp out of a 1360cc 8V with out spending half your 6k minimum lol.

If you have a 106 1.4 XSI or AX 1.4 GTI and add:
Ported head (<£500)
Wild cam (<£200)
Vernier pully (~£100)
Performance exhaust manifold (<£200)
Free flow exhaust (<£250)
ECU plus fitting of and mapping (£650)
Bike bodies (vary greatly in price but around £150 for used)
Inlet manifold (£150-200)
Cam belt (£20)
Valve springs uprated (£50-100)
Pistons rebated (~£50)
Gasket set (~£30)
Uprated clutch (<£250)
Good oil (<£50)
Cool plugs (<£20)
Lower geared box (depends how much you can get a used one for or just lower your own box for ~£350)

You get ~ 160 bhp ;)

[RCD-Performance]

Thanks AX.

[SaxoVTRacer]

im lookign forward to having a plain 100 ish bhp and a quick shift thats all i want obviously when i can affoard cams and induction i will but 100 sounds fair for a saxo

[Ryan]

I say you believe wrong ;)!!

Without spending 6-8k i doubt you could do it! Although there is a 180bhp 1.4 i believe. Ryan will tell you the spec of sandy's car.

sandy wouldnt release the spec of the 1400 16v fully, nor the extact power figures as the owner requested so

[vtr130]

Lets be serious though if you did make 160bhp n/a vtr what good would it be below 5k revs?

Id rather have a car that goes well wth a decent spread of power and torque than just peak power.

[luthor1]

Wild cam 8v configurations have vastly more torque at low revs than their corresponding cc 16v cousins, so a 150bhp 8v will have a better low torque curve than a 180bhp 16v

This is due to higher port velocity on the 8v at low rpm, prevents buffetting in the intake ports, and standing air.

Andy
RCD Performance