tb'd VTS vs. tb'd 172

[Alex_3589]

Been out in a throttle bodied 172 today thats running about 220bhp, was very very fast and was very impressed with the set up. Its for sale, however i dont think i can afford the insurance on it, will try though.
so my question is; will a good tb set up on a vts be as quick considering its a lighter car? No ridiculous spec but some good cams, throttle bodies, bigger injectors, standalone etc....
any info appreciated

[KamRacing]

work out the power to weight for both cars and that will give you a better idea on the performance

[Alex_3589]

any reviews on the KMS tb's Kam?
Would also like a covered airbox like josh's, do you know if anywhere still does these?

[pjm300]

and gearing too, chances are the clio will have the edge

[pjm300]

any reviews on the KMS tb's Kam?
Would also like a covered airbox like josh's, do you know if anywhere still does these?

longmans have done an airbox recently for darkvts2003 on ssc, but it wont be cheap...

ill be making an airbox from c/f sheet in the next month or so, but ive cut out all my scuttle to get room.

KMS bodies are probably one of the best you can get at the moment

[Alex_3589]

yea, the clio will be a bit quicker, just want the same boot up the backside really from the vts if i can...

[pjm300]

where are you based? mine will be finished within the next few weeks and iwll be running about 180 bhp...

edit: well it will be if kam gets back to me about the manifold ;) hehe

[Alex_3589]

im from the north east mate.
just started looking into tb setups as i was just going to stick to 708's on standard inlet.
so im looking for a DTH kit, good exhaust set up, good cams, and some sort of airbox but dont want to cut the scuttle panel.

[pjm300]

unfortunately you either need a curved trumpet set up like josh's, which they dont make any more, or a long setup which goes through the scuttle...

if you dont want to cut the scuttle you can run shorter trumpets but you either wont get the best from the engine, or you will need to run uber high revs

[Alex_3589]

hmm, do the kms bodies need the scuttle panel to be modified?
also, is there anyway to cover the trumpets, like a filter?
as iv never seen a saxo without them being open?

[pjm300]

you could probably put up to about 80-90mm trumpets on there without the scuttle being modified (i havent seen these in person, so they might need shorter)
you can run individual filters on each trumpet, which tend to lose power, or you can run a sausage filter, which is a long filter which acts as a plenum and is the better option

[Alex_3589]

il have to look into it.
definatly would prefer to leave the scuttle alone and have some sort of filter over the trumpets...
think im guna go for high comp pistons too.

[pjm300]

it would be rude not to go for them! you should be able to get 180 without spending silly money

[Steve]

i think the clio would always win in the end tbh but you would certainly give it a run for its money.

VTS with breathing mods against a 172 with the same i give them a very good run for their money, and if the drivers shit which 8/10 i have found with clio drivers is the case you will win, or if they have slammed their poor clio on its arse :(

Straight lines are boring ;)

[leeroybrown]

Obs never came up against me then boyo lol

[Steve]

Obs never came up against me then boyo lol

haha if i do start to loose i turn to gravel tracks :fcuk:

I felt sorry for this poor 172 last night slammed on its arse, his beasty backbox was smashing off the deck over bumps.

[Alex_3589]

thanks for the comments and info.
anyone want to post up their specs?
would idealy like to find some curved trumpets with an airbox...

[Karl]

I think (not trying to be biased)
look at the specs for a clio 172 cup in standard form.


172 bhp 1020kg
169bhp per tonne approx,


saxo vts

120bhp 950kg
133bhp per tonne.

i think their both nippy cars, but you should drive both, and see what you think.

I think youll find a Clio is better in almost every aspect,
the great thing about a Saxo is its great performance for very little money.

[pjm300]

thanks for the comments and info.
anyone want to post up their specs?
would idealy like to find some curved trumpets with an airbox...

they very very rarely come up unfortunately.

however there were some bodies on the bay yesterday :)

[Steve]

thats what i love about the saxo great for the money.....

[leeroybrown]

Agreed hence why i came back

[Ryan]

considering that i know of theres about 4 sets of the curved gmc trumpets in the uk on road cars.

you will never get a set up like mine and joshs as the are that rare

[leeroybrown]

Give GMC plenty of money am sure they will offer to do it again lol

[Alex_3589]

Is there much a performance difference from a high spec cam'd vts to one with tb's aswell?
Could anyone post their spec of cams, management and injectors if they have time? and also what bodies and filtration they use?
Thanks

[Karl]

Define "high spec cammed VTS".

is too general.

[pjm300]

Give GMC plenty of money am sure they will offer to do it again lol


only if they have 5 people willing to shell out 500 quid as a deposit or somethign like that lol

[Alex_3589]

Define "high spec cammed VTS".

is too general.

lets say;
708's or similar
good filter/intake
2.5 inch exhaust with wide bore mani
larger injectors
standalone
forged pistons
etc

[leeroybrown]

might as well go TB

got most of the setup there

[rich106]

Been out in a throttle bodied 172 today thats running about 220bhp, was very very fast and was very impressed with the set up. Its for sale, however i dont think i can afford the insurance on it, will try though.
so my question is; will a good tb set up on a vts be as quick considering its a lighter car? No ridiculous spec but some good cams, throttle bodies, bigger injectors, standalone etc....
any info appreciated

I was on track in my car against a Clio 16v (older and lighter shape ones) with a tb'd 220bhp williams lump in it and the straight line stuff was pretty neck a neck (I passed him in the end). So 220bhp in the heavier 172 style clio will again be very simialr.

[Jimmy-Boy]

i think if the saxo and clio were running equal bhp (220) the saxo would win but obviously they are not so clio would win..

[vtr130]

Clio's are for homo's!!

[AlexR]

Can't say fairer than that.

[KamRacing]

so are scuttlepanels lol
curved trumpets are a poor compromise. It would not be hard to cut a nice neat hole and leave the top lip of the scuttlepanel and maybe weld a little material so you dont suck in petrol fumes into the cabin area...

[vtr130]

I have no scuttle either im so not a homo! lol

[pjm300]

exactly, scuttle, wossat? :D

[vtr130]

lol paul so wot u plannin on ur engine??

[pjm300]

lol paul so wot u plannin on ur engine??

check my progress thread and you'll find out ;)

nearly there :D

[bullit]

ive just looked at it

[pjm300]

haha i presume you're silver on there? maybe?

[bullit]

yes lol

[pjm300]

:D lol

[vtr130]

Linky?! ;)

[jpsaxo]

only if they have 5 people willing to shell out 500 quid as a deposit or somethign like that lol

And nearly 2k for the complete kit...

[pjm300]

exactly, rip off :P

[Alex_3589]

This whole tb thing is getting to me now lol.
i do want them, but i want trumpets that fit without cutting the scuttle pannel and also some kind of filter or airbox over them which i havnt seen anywhere other than josh's.
Are the KMS dth bodies long? does the scuttle need cutting? and can you get a filter to go over them?

[jpsaxo]

I'd set a few hours spare and get reading on SSC mate, theres plenty of threads on there which will help you decide on a decent spec.

I'd take notice of Craig106's thread, i believe he had the kms boddies, so have a few others.

[Alex_3589]

been reading into the kms bodies and you can get ones with shorter trumpets i think, so just need to find a filter to go over them.
Will i notice a big difference from having a cam'd vts engine to adding tb's?
Also, if i got the cams, high comps etc put in, would i then be able to drive it somewhere to get the throttle bodies put on and mapped with standalone? and how long would that take?

[dannygti]

with kms bodies and bodies in general you dont get a fixed length because you can change length by buying different lenght trumpets. i think the kms bodies with 60mm trumpets fit without cutting the scuttle.

you would notice a differece in top end power but the most noticable difference would be midrange punch and superior throttle response.

you would be able to take it to almost any tuner and they would do that for you as fitting bodies doesnt actually take that long providing the fuel system isnt toatally the wrong way round. i can fit a set of bodies in 45mins (not on saxo). try getting a reputable tuner to do it though as fitting throttle bodies maybe easy, mapping them "properly" certainly isnt.

[Alex_3589]

I think my options are the KMS bodies or the ones that hi flow heads sell.
Dont know if i should get the cams and standalone first wait a while then get the bodies :s
Any idea what mpg is like with bodies?

[dannygti]

in my opinion kms bodies are of very very high quality. i see many different types of bodies everday and they are the best tbh.
my first thing to get is stand alone as you wll need this whatever route you go, then decide on cam spec, this will determine if you need forge pistons and solid followers, then you can get bodies to suit the spec of engine like diameter and induction lenght for example.

[dannygti]

for mpg it might be worth pm'ing smeone with bodies as i dont pay for the fuel on th cars i drive with boddies.

[Alex_3589]

Thanks for the info :)
Spec i have decided on so far is;
708's
Forged pistons.
Stronger valve springs etc.
KMS or megasquirt.
?????? Throttle bodies with long air filter or airbox if possible and bigger injectors.
should i use a 2.5 inch exhaust?

[dannygti]

Thanks for the info :)
Spec i have decided on so far is;
708's
Forged pistons.
Stronger valve springs etc.
KMS or megasquirt.
?????? Throttle bodies with long air filter or airbox if possible and bigger injectors.
should i use a 2.5 inch exhaust?

good spec but i dont think 708's woul require uprated valve springs but maybe followers would be a good idea. i think a 2"- 2 1/4" would be sufficient.

also if you are going with hi comps then why not go for cat cam 734's hybrids as these are able to run on hydrolic followers and still retain very good low down power.

[Alex_3589]

im not sure on cams yet as i dont want anything that will be too wild..
Just want to make the head as strong as possible so nothing will go wrong once the car is finished.
I want some good power and most of all torque and thorttle response but i want it to be reliable.
What kind of cars will i expect to keep up with to 60/70ish?
Also, are tb's relatively quiet when cruising and gently accelerating? obv very loud when booting it.

[dannygti]

yh id say they are normally loud but the more throttle the noise just multiplies.
if you went for a good setup with cat cams 734's and boddies id say you could easily achieve 175bhp. wich in a standard weight saxo would give 190 per tonne'ish wich a renaultsport megane r26 is around 170bhp per tonne so you would be comfortably quicker than that. obviously if you stripped it you could get around 200bhp/tonne and and a porche 911 is only 217bhp/tonne

[Alex_3589]

i would like the noise but would annoy me if it never went away and gf would hate it.
im aiming for 170-180bhp i think.
Would love it to have the same sort of pull that the 172 had that i went out in.
Will be getting some buckets and harnesses but keeping the rear interior and my install :)

[dannygti]

i think it could easily be achievable tbh. the thing is if you are concerned about noise then just fit a bigger filter or get a enclosed box.

[Ryan]

just buy it all from QEP matt can spec an engine to what you want as he has dyno testing done recently

[Alex_3589]

Been looking for a big filter or an airbox but cant find anyone who makes them anymore.
I want to get the all the kit from the same place so il give qep a call along with hi flow heads and kam racing.

[dannygti]

just buy it all from QEP matt can spec an engine to what you want as he has dyno testing done recently

with some VERY good results just to add.

[Ryan]

yep, but to get 180bhp dont expect it to be cheap.

[Alex_3589]

big difference between 170 and 180bhp?
do you know if anyone still makes an airbox for tb's?
if not, is it easy to get a long filter to fit over the trumpets?

[Ryan]

longmans airbox/reverie but not cheap.

big difference between 160 and 180.

170 still requres a fair bit of ££££

[Alex_3589]

josh got about 170 with 708's didnt he?
if i get around that figure, il be happy. as long as i can wipe the smile of people's faces when they see a sleeper little saxo got past them :)

[Ryan]

high comps josh has, and irc its pretty much just about 170.

high comps are not cheap really, espec if you are reboring overbore.

[Alex_3589]

I will be using high comps too. for peace of mind more than anything but also for the little extra torque.
havnt decided on managment yet...

[Ryan]

if going high comps, IMO using 708s is a poor choise when you can run 734s with them and get more powwwaaa!!

[Pat_Vts]

150bhp in a saxo is enough i wouldv thought

it may fall apart doing ridicilous speeds

[pjm300]

im going 734's, should have the results in the next couple of weeks

[jpsaxo]

will be interesting for sure Pauline, should show the difference that new QEP head is making compared to jp4 head

[pjm300]

i think the difference will be substantial, hopefully it wont be more than 10bhp tho

[bullit]

paul what head will you be running then?

[Ryan]

paul is using a cpoo head

[bullit]

ahhh....

[Alex_3589]

arrgh, i duno what to do.
Dont know if want the tb'd vts engine or s/c the vtr :s
Both appeal to me but i change my mind every few minute :(