734 Power graphs please

[jpsaxo]

Similar to Toads thread,

Looking for anyone with cat cam 734 power graphs please...

I know G's engine made 189bhp with them fitted, did anyone grab the graph before the thread was deleted?

What about Paulm's engine, is there a graph for his engine?

Cheers :D

[Toad]

What are these camshafts like when compared to the likes of 803s, 808s, 811s... ?

[Sophia_Bush]

wldest you can go on hydros

[jpsaxo]

Check the cat cam website for exact spec. Need forgies to run them + springs and retainers! Still make peak power around 7k with a well sorted head :D

I know Pauls made 180 with a standard jp4 head!

[boz]

fook me, thats canny :)

will they be the same as newman PH4s?

[AlexB]

think the ph4s are a tad wilder and need solid lifters

would be interesting to see a proper comparison of most makes
ie
piper kent catcam and newman

just to see the differences in them like as in the middle region they all say different buts about whats needed

[boz]

what were the mods of that car stated above with 180bhp?


i would be good to see a comparision of all the cams available before and after.
but each car is different.
we need a minted user with loads of cash to use his car and have them all fiited and RR'd to compaire ;) lol

[AlexB]

haha i sooo should have done that last year

[jpsaxo]

Paulm's, spec is high comp pistons, standard jp4 head with 734's + boddies, supersprint mani + 2inch exhaust = 180bhp

[Toad]

If you need forged pistons for these cams, why not just go with solid lifters, and put some much wilder cams in?

[jpsaxo]

because you can get near enough 190bhp with 734's...

[Toad]

OK, question then... How much more work is it to change to solid lifters, when you are currently installing forged pistons, retainers and springs?

[jpsaxo]

I already have forged pistons Toad,

I dont think much, im not convinced you can get much more from the solids compared to the 734's in terms of area underneath the line (on the graph) and i cant go wilder than 803's ish with my pistons!

i do have a plan for the stage after 734's but i might as well make the most of having the forged bottom end for now...

[wrighty89]

when i was looking into this the info i got from qep was;
forged pistons,
big valve head,
734's,
bodies,
standalone,
springs and retainers should be pushing 190bhp.
Any more than that and you will start having issues with the gearbox; keeping it in powerband etc.
The torque curve is supposed to be very unusual but a lot of fun to drive pulling from 3k-ish all the way up to 8k without dropping any power.

[Toad]

I dont think much, im not convinced you can get much more from the solids compared to the 734's in terms of area underneath the line (on the graph)

Don't follow you bud... :wacko:

OK, so 803s you need solid lifters, 734s you don't, so you could just pop them in fairly easily. And you don't think there's too much difference between the 803s and 734s? Wasn't aware that your pistons would limit you to 803s. Did you know that at the time? Can you just have them rebated more or will you need new ones completely?

[Toad]

when i was looking into this the info i got from qep was;
forged pistons,
big valve head,
734's,
bodies,
standalone,
springs and retainers should be pushing 190bhp.
Any more than that and you will start having issues with the gearbox; keeping it in powerband etc.
The torque curve is supposed to be very unusual but a lot of fun to drive pulling from 3k-ish all the way up to 8k without dropping any power.

Sounds good to me! But I would say, if you haven't already got forged pistons, might as well go for wilder cams and change to solid lifters at the same time...

[Dibz]

Another good thing with the 734's is that with them making peak power 7-7500rpm you dont need to do much with the gearbox compared to a solid lifter grind making power 8k+

[dannygti]

solid lifters are £££ toadus.

jp, im pretty sure G's made mid 190's with the better qep head.
either way these are imo the best move for you as it wont be too much hassle.
also craig (cupracraig on here) had them on his gti and made around 184bhp.

[Toad]

Oh, I didn't realise dude. This is my quest, as I have the fairly lairy BV head already done, let's hope it pays off.

I think I will just go bodies and standalone first. I'll keep the 708s in, see how she runs etc, and then I'll consider going a step further, which will either be these cams were discussing and forgies, + new springs and new retainers, or I'll go straight for solids and some spastically mental cams. :wacko:

[dannygti]

Oh, I didn't realise dude. This is my quest, as I have the fairly lairy BV head already done, let's hope it pays off.

I think I will just go bodies and standalone first. I'll keep the 708s in, see how she runs etc, and then I'll consider going a step further, which will either be these cams were discussing and forgies, + new springs and new retainers, or I'll go straight for solids and some spastically mental cams. :wacko:

the key thing is your pistons, as thats a £550 step away from the next level up... if you have these then 734's are great as you could sell the 708's and the 734's would cost feck all really. then with your b/v head you could see some fruity power (obviously with boddies). put it into perspective, after you have bought pistons/ecu/tb's/headwork wich is a fair old whack, the solids/cams/retainers/springs cost around £1250'ish. so not cheap. thats why 734's are good as you can save £1000 foir the sake if maybe 5-10bhp.:P

[Toad]

But I will still need new springs and retainers though right? So the only saving by going with the 734s will be the cost of the solid lifters, right?

[VtsTom]

As said, they make peek power at 7500 so you wont need forged rods either. QEP say 7500 is the limit for hydraulic lifters and standard rods. Just get some decent con-rod bolts from the likes or ARP and your laughing

[Cupra-Craig]

Matt at Qep told me you should uprate the springs an retainer's on the 734's which i did. think mine was one of the first set one of these engine.

[dannygti]

But I will still need new springs and retainers though right? So the only saving by going with the 734s will be the cost of the solid lifters, right?

your right matey, just checked the catcams website and you do need the springs/retainers. the solids are probably the the most expensive part of the cam gear. and steve ha a point. if you have cams that produce peak power at high revs (i.e. over 8k) then you need rods....another £600:p:panic:

[dannygti]

Matt at Qep told me you should uprate the springs an retainer's on the 734's which i did. think mine was one of the first set one of these engine.

how much power/torque did your have again matey? i loved that car.:P

[Cupra-Craig]

think it was about 183bhp@fly with an 100bhp shot of NOS!!

Was good fun been looking at getting another GTI but everyone wants big money for them an i have found a 172 cheaper than most GTI's i been looking at.

So looks like i could have a 172 this weekend!!! TB clio!!

[Ryan]

because you can get near enough 190bhp with 734's...

remeber though that the headwork was very extensive from qep/puma at the time, and both you will struggle to get them to build the head for you now from what I have read.

its not a cheap option to get 190 still as you know, costs still mount up.

[dannygti]

what would you go for in jp's position ryan?? just curious.

[Ryan]

what would you go for in jp's position ryan?? just curious.

leave the engine and spend money on the rest of the car first. As you are looking at about 1500-2k really to get not a huge power increase. Obviously noticable but if joshes makes circa 170 atm, when you factor in the cost of remapping, the cams and other gubbins (jp4 head if he goes for the cheap option) the money could give more gains than a 10bhp increase.

All imo of course.

[dannygti]

leave the engine and spend money on the rest of the car first. As you are looking at about 1500-2k really to get not a huge power increase. Obviously noticable but if joshes makes circa 170 atm, when you factor in the cost of remapping, the cams and other gubbins (jp4 head if he goes for the cheap option) the money could give more gains than a 10bhp increase.

All imo of course.

i agree, but jp is already considering other thigs i think. like what you are talking about.

if i were him, id sell the boddies and buy a s/c kit :P low boost, 200bhp @wheels.. job done.

[Ryan]

if i were him, id sell the boddies and buy a s/c kit :P low boost, 200bhp @wheels.. job done.

might aswell sell his whole engine because of the HC pistons though.

Ive toyed alot with spunking serious dosh on mine. Bar money into the mapping im doing because of overfueling, so i dont want bore wash. I think the best way to get fast in a car is get more seat time, i thought i could spent 2-3k here, or 2-3k is alot of track time. I know long term which will make me more competant and faster. espec as us NA boys dont have alot of help from the standard sports MA gearset lol:homme:

[Ryan]

You on about mine ryan???

not regarding the figures dude, yours had the extensive BV head qep did at the time iirc and had a rolling road graph that wasnt hand made

[Cupra-Craig]

not regarding the figures dude, yours had the extensive BV head qep did at the time iirc and had a rolling road graph that wasnt hand made

Right no prob yeah had the big valve head an was mapped at GMC

[Ryan]

Right no prob yeah had the big valve head an was mapped at GMC

did you get it mapped by john right away? or was it you that had the slight issue which john sorted really quickly?

[dannygti]

might aswell sell his whole engine because of the HC pistons though.

Ive toyed alot with spunking serious dosh on mine. Bar money into the mapping im doing because of overfueling, so i dont want bore wash. I think the best way to get fast in a car is get more seat time, i thought i could spent 2-3k here, or 2-3k is alot of track time. I know long term which will make me more competant and faster. espec as us NA boys dont have alot of help from the standard sports MA gearset lol:homme:

hi comp could still work :P have to get nice inlet charge temp but would make for one serious engine.
i will be interested to see the outcome of yours after a little mapping.

i do agree with the track time. its far more important than people think.. at the end of the day there will always be something quicker so whats the point starving yourself of the enjoyment in the first place. thats why im doing my car in stages, as i will have time to enjoy it in between....oh and i wont have to worry about the poor gear spacing ;)

[Ryan]

guys at austec when mine was on the rollers laughed at mine. Just said it overfuels and theres ALOT more in it. We shall see eh, im sceptical but with the shit it pumps out myself, ian and alex all knew it was overfueling in certain load areas and long term its not the best thing to leave is it.

track time or advanced driving lessons will make a car and driver alot faster than a 10-20bhp power hike imo.

and shut it you soon to be boosted queer :P

[dannygti]

guys at austec when mine was on the rollers laughed at mine. Just said it overfuels and theres ALOT more in it. We shall see eh, im sceptical but with the shit it pumps out myself, ian and alex all knew it was overfueling in certain load areas and long term its not the best thing to leave is it.

track time or advanced driving lessons will make a car and driver alot faster than a 10-20bhp power hike imo.

and shut it you soon to be boosted queer :P

lol, you going to take it to them for the tinkering session?what fuel do you use in the R? super unleaded?


craig, have you gt a rolling road graph of your car?(106)

[Ryan]

I run it on 98 ron. Yep going to take it to them to play with the map, ian said to use dave walker as he mapped it, but austec are local and the cost of driving to mr walker just makes it a mission. espec as i loose a whole day, where as austec half a day.

Thats aslong as im happy with talking to AFR tuning about how they plan to adjust it etc... if it sees over 200 on the mahas ill be fairly happy..

[jpsaxo]

Good discussion guys, i am now thinking why rush it to have it ready for the ring and just build the ultimate NA TU engine over next winter :D

In the mean time like Danny said Ryan, im already planning certain chassis mods etc to make sure im alot safer on track and ensure the car is more suited to track rather than fast road as it is atm.

[Ryan]

Good discussion guys, i am now thinking why rush it to have it ready for the ring and just build the ultimate NA TU engine over next winter :D


ultimate spec josh yet not go solid grind pah dont make me laugh you big :homme::homme:

Like i said with your engine if it aint broke, pewsey loved his old car as he just raped it, parked up left it then came back and it started... mine on the other hand if you leave it for a while it isnt a happy chappy lol

at least get bac to the uk and start enjoying it again dude, thats the most important part isnt it :D

[jpsaxo]

I didnt mean that Ry,

Basically istead of doing a half job with the 734's and rushing it to get it ready for the ring i might as well go the whole hog solids etc and do a proper job when im back in the UK next winter!

As im now building the car to be more of a track car, not a fast road car as it stands now :D

[dannygti]

oh and ill try and get that "info" you wanted for next week mate.have you got the money or just wanting prices.?

[Sophia_Bush]

remember 1.5gs are needed for the APs if you want them lol

734s would mind a set myself after seeing plums results but will have to make do with my manbest spec 708s

[Ryan]

I didnt mean that Ry,

Basically istead of doing a half job with the 734's and rushing it to get it ready for the ring i might as well go the whole hog solids etc and do a proper job when im back in the UK next winter!

As im now building the car to be more of a track car, not a fast road car as it stands now :D


good stuff that you contemplate solid grinds.
Remeber though that you will need to worry less about bhp bragging figures in order to have it useable without a very expensive gearbox. Its one reason atm im keeping the 803s, If i go to peaky the standard MA ratios with any FD are appauling.

[jpsaxo]

Tis good food for thought Ry. DOnt worry im not gonna do anything without consulting you lot ^^^^ first :D

Danny - Will have money when next paid in 1 weeks time mate :D

[Ryan]

build the engine around the gearbox, as its the most limiting factor imo.
no point having 220bhp if you dont have a box to use it and a 160bhp car is overall quicker :P

[jpsaxo]

good stuff that you contemplate solid grinds.
Remeber though that you will need to worry less about bhp bragging figures in order to have it useable without a very expensive gearbox. Its one reason atm im keeping the 803s, If i go to peaky the standard MA ratios with any FD are appauling.

is yours the 1.4 xsi FD Ry? How did that feel on track?

[dannygti]

ok mate, no problem..

i like some of the idea's your throwing around jp, if the last idea went forward then it could quite possibly the most powerful n/a tu you could wish for :)

[Ryan]

is yours the 1.4 xsi FD Ry? How did that feel on track?

s2 box. i want the xsi, ive sold my s1 box as even on the s2 box 1st gear is unuseable with the power, and on track holding gear slightly longer can be more benificial.

the FD doesnt alter the gear spacings which is why if you go very peaky using any of the FDs wont solve the issue.

[dannygti]

we need an engineering company to make a value for money gearset with a 1st gear capable of around 45mph then close spacing.

[Ryan]

we need an engineering company to make a value for money gearset with a 1st gear capable of around 45mph then close spacing.

prob looking at about 50K development charges mind going on what paul said muffet gears charge lol.

Its a shame the MA gear cluster is so bad for a decent NA engine, all using the same gearset with altering FDs wont ever solve the issue :(

[dannygti]

prob looking at about 50K development charges mind going on what paul said muffet gears charge lol.

Its a shame the MA gear cluster is so bad for a decent NA engine, all using the same gearset with altering FDs wont ever solve the issue :(

lets face it ryan, the only economical way of getting a gearbox thats cost effective and works is the be box with some mad mix of gears and final drive..

look how well it works on this tu powered 205 with more or less the same spec as yours.

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=A3yT8XjRssg&feature=channel_page

[Ryan]

BE i looked at adter i saw the cup box is a BE. Dean recons BE isnt that expensive to go now hes done it on his 106.

and theres alot more ratios to do etc.. add to the fact if you do want to change the FD its alot easyer than in MA.

[dannygti]

BE i looked at adter i saw the cup box is a BE. Dean recons BE isnt that expensive to go now hes done it on his 106.

and theres alot more ratios to do etc.. add to the fact if you do want to change the FD its alot easyer than in MA.

and also the diff is MUCH easier to get to and also the crownwheel is bolted on so easily interchangable :P

[Ryan]

and also the diff is MUCH easier to get to and also the crownwheel is bolted on so easily interchangable :P

thats what i was getting at lol.

[jpsaxo]

we need an engineering company to make a value for money gearset with a 1st gear capable of around 45mph then close spacing.

You know what guys... I know a place that actually makes the gears etc, its the place where we get our stubb pins made up from, when im back in the UK im tempted to go up and have a convo with him and see what he can do for us, all of it would be 'on the side' of the job so we should be able to get a decent price, but what the price will be i have no idea?

[Ryan]

josh it wont be cheap by any means.

[wrighty89]

i know this thread has pretty much been and gone now but i thought i would just post a question here insted of starting a new one...
If going for 734's; would you lose a lot of power using a standard head?

[Ryan]

to get the best out of them you really need a modified head from what QEPs dyno results showed..

aswell as the fact you need forged pistons its not alot in the whole sceme of things lol

[VtsTom]

If you use a JP4 head you can use 737's on hydos, not sure if your can get them for j4s but a jp4 head "can" be a cheap big valve head

[jpsaxo]

I think Pauls made 9bhp less with standard jp4 head. So basically head work = around 10bhp at this stage of tuning.

And if your going 734's then youll be going pistons which means you might as well just save anothr month and go for head work imo!

[AlexR]

I was thoroughly unimpressed by pauls car. That is all.

[Ryan]

I was thoroughly unimpressed by pauls car. That is all.

http://skugg.files.wordpress.com/2007/06/can-of-worms.jpg
*sniggers*

[wrighty89]

i was thinking of 708's and bodies just down to the fact that it will be very road friendly etc, however; for piece of mind i would pretty much rebuild the head so for the price of springs and retainers, i might aswel just go for the 734's.
I'd planned to use forged pistons with either setup.

[jpsaxo]

I was thoroughly unimpressed by pauls car. That is all.

Care to explain yourself Alex? PM me if not mate im interested :)

[wrighty89]

josh, did you use different springs and retainers etc when building your engine?
is it worth upgrading when using 708's?