200-250bhp???

[bigbadboy]

Stage 3 (+ 45bhp) Upgrade – Consists of: Camshafts, Stainless Steel Manifold/Back box /Bypass Pipe, Spark Plugs, Carbon Air box/Induction, Power Boost Valve, Fuel Pump, Crankcase vent filter, Exhaust heat wrap, Cable ties Stainless Steel (Kit costs £1,600 from Larkspeed.com)
Flywheel: Balanced & Lightened
Clutch: Balanced & Lightened
Crankshaft: Forged Knife-Edged, Balanced & Lightened
Forged Valves
Forged Con Rods
Forged Pistons
Head Gasket
Valve Springs
Piston Rings
Titanium Retainers
Seals
Pulley
Quaife LSD
Cam belt
Cam gears
ECU Re-map
Drive shaft
Throttle Bodies
Baffled Sump
Bearings
Injectors
Re-built & Re-bored Engine
Re-built Gearbox
Ported & Polished
Sandblasted Internals
Streamline Carbon Fibre: ECU Cover etc.

MODS OCURING:^^^^^^^^

DRIVES: 2003 Citroen Saxo 3dr Mk2 Standard 1.6 VTS 16v (120 bhp)

THE IDEA IS TO GET AS MUCH BHP OUT OF THE STANDARD ENGINE AS POSSIBLE (ABOUT 200-250BHP IS THE TARGET) BUT KEEPING IT NATURALLY ASPIRATED. JUST A FEW QUESTIONS:

HOWS MUCH WILL ALL THIS LOT COST?
WHO WOULD DO IT & FIT IT PROFESSIONALLY (COMPANIES – LIVE IN SURREY)?
BHP & OVERALL PERFORMANCE INCREASE/WEIGHT GAIN?
ANY OTHER MODS WHICH WILL FURTH INCREASE BHP?
NOTE: DON’T WORRY, I WILL BE DOING THE BRAKES, SUSPENSION AND CHASSIS/ROLL CAGE AS WELL AS WHEELS & TIRES

[VTEC-Saxo]

Throttle bodies ?

[-Alex-]

You MAY get 200, but you need a turbo or supercharger to get the most out ov the engine!

[bigbadboy]

Throttle bodies ?

What about throttle bodies?

[bullit]

big valve head.
solid lifters
a mad cam
ans standolone management

will see you near 200.

the more power you get though the need for a custom box

[bigbadboy]

You MAY get 200, but you need a turbo or supercharger to get the most out ov the engine!

What sort of turbo/s-charger? costs+fitting? and extra bits needed?

[Ryan]

You MAY get 200, but you need a turbo or supercharger to get the most out ov the engine!

utter crap, im sorry but you dont.

I have a 198bhp NA engine and everyone whos been out in it wouldnt say im not getting the most out of it, and thats with the mapping not being the best it can.

RE 0riginal question - I wouldnt use the stage kit if you plan to get 200. You deffo wont get near 250NA and if you go over 200 you push the engine into a very peaky engine where the standard MA gear cluster is no use to you in reality.

You should speak to one engine tuner about the spec you want and the driveability you want and go from there. Catcams 803s as i run seem to be making good power in a few engines.

[Ryan]

espec looking at the stage kit half of it it shit, FSE boost valve, if you run bodies tyou also dont need the airbox you will get with the kit etc...

stay well clear.


you also cant just reamap an ecu if you run bodies for that power, you need a whole nmew standalone unit

[bullit]

ryan what did you change to get more then? the cams?

[bullit]

espec looking at the stage kit half of it it shit, FSE boost valve, if you run bodies tyou also dont need the airbox you will get with the kit etc...

stay well clear.

agree, was gonna say that

and the bore the engine part is useless aswell

[Ryan]

ryan what did you change to get more then? the cams?

nothing but rape it, when ian had it mapped it had 50miles on it, an engine that fresh and tight wont produce the best power, now its loosened up its running better, although will be alot better once i get the mapping for the overfueling sorted.

[VTEC-Saxo]

What about throttle bodies?
There a must if your aiming for big bhp from a N/A

[bullit]

There a must if your aiming for big bhp from a N/A

which are on the list

[Ryan]

speak to QEP as you are based in surrey btw.

[Ryan]

There a must if your aiming for big bhp from a N/A

might want to read the spec list proposed then ;)

[AlexB]

Stage 3 (+ 45bhp) Upgrade – Consists of: Camshafts, Stainless Steel Manifold/Back box /Bypass Pipe, Spark Plugs, Carbon Air box/Induction, Power Boost Valve, Fuel Pump, Crankcase vent filter, Exhaust heat wrap, Cable ties Stainless Steel (Kit costs £1,600 from Larkspeed.com)

what profile cam??

Flywheel: Balanced & Lightene

fair mod

Clutch: Balanced & Lightened

never heard of a lightened and balance clutch (maybe a paddle???)

Crankshaft: Forged Knife-Edged, Balanced & Lightened

maybe worth it

Forged Valves

maybe worth it

Forged Con Rods

probably worth it

Forged Pistons

fair mod

Head Gasket

get a layered one

Valve Springs

might be worth better than standardones

Piston Rings

will come with forgies

Titanium Retainers

why?

Seals

might was well

Pulley

which pulley??

Quaife LSD

get the box rebuilt too

Cam belt

fair point in doing

Cam gears

you mean cam pulleys??

ECU Re-map

will need a standalone

Drive shaft

will need a set and i would go uprated just to be safe

Throttle Bodies

type and size??

Baffled Sump

fair mod tbh

Bearings

get decent ones

Injectors

to suit throttle bodies i would get pretty big ones

Re-built & Re-bored Engine

no need to re bore just hone the bores

Re-built Gearbox

fair mod

Ported & Polished

assuming the head thats covere at the top of the list

Sandblasted Internals

why?

Streamline Carbon Fibre: ECU Cover etc.

pointless imo


hope you have well over 10k to splash out
im looking at a similar power buy the time my motors done
and im looking as 11k and change tbh
i would start out with a few simple mods and build on it slowly
itll be a big jump to double the power of a car in one go

[Ryan]

alex im on standard vts valeo and driveshafts with no issues btw.

food for thought maybe :P

[VTEC-Saxo]

might want to read the spec list proposed then ;)

Oops :), cheers didn't read that far after reading Carbon Air box/Induction should never assume eh :oops:

[AlexB]

alex im on standard vts valeo and driveshafts with no issues btw.

food for thought maybe :P

i know a lot o guys stay standard shatfts unless its silly
but personally (and with my record with shafts) i would get some decent ones lol

[Ryan]

the only thing that kills shafts imo is standing starts, infact thats where the tranny and everything takes the most abuse.

its why craig has killed his so many times.

how do you plan to uprate them alex? as custom ones are not cheap, and then what are you thinking run thick ones like BE so then need hubs to match?

[AlexB]

i know a geez (dads mate) who owns a compay making shafts so he could do me some thicker onew with beefy cvs on

i know its standing starts that kill them
but ive killed several in just normal(ish) driving round the lanes by me i dunno why it does but they get ruined

[dannygti]

alex, if you plan to spend 11k on your engine why dont you just get longmans to build you one??

[AlexB]

i looked at it danny

it works out at 10-10.5ish idf i get it biult
if i do it myslef itll be about 7ish in parts plus fluids ect n stuff like gaskets so im gunna have a bash myself with some help of a few guys who know what thee doing lol

[dannygti]

i looked at it danny

then you know it will be built 100% and come with warranty.:P

[bigbadboy]

Thanks for all the info guys, very very helpful. Just to let you know (as you might have already guessed with basic/poor knowledge of engine performance/mods) im a newbie, so go easy. I've had the Sax about 2 years now with a few mods (e.g sat nav de-badges/flushed - boot/handles/bonnet) but have been looking/planning to spend BIG money on getting this sax looking good and going pretty damn fast. Not interested in any new cars coz there 2 bloody heavy and i love the pace of the sax in standard form let alone after mods, there also so much fun

[AlexB]

then you know it will be built 100% and come with warranty.:P

very true
atm its all just talk as i need a job lol

[Ryan]

remeber longmans dont 'deal' with the general public. And ive read interesting comments by sandy on the longmans heads. I belive he is not a fan from information ive read.

hmmm do i ring mr walker 2mo and try and arrange some mapping time.

[Ryan]

Thanks for all the info guys, very very helpful. Just to let you know (as you might have already guessed with basic/poor knowledge of engine performance/mods) im a newbie, so go easy. I've had the Sax about 2 years now with a few mods (e.g sat nav de-badges/flushed - boot/handles/bonnet) but have been looking/planning to spend BIG money on getting this sax looking good and going pretty damn fast. Not interested in any new cars coz there 2 bloody heavy and i love the pace of the sax in standard form let alone after mods, there also so much fun

on a serious note owning a very high spec engine, if you have very poor knowlege on them you could end up with a very expensive paperweight, to say at times it can be an arse is an understatement lol
id do alot of research to gsain understanding before spending alot of £££

stay away from all in one companies, eg companies that sell off the shelf kits, imo they dont produce what is needed for a real high spec set up

[AlexB]

tbh im just going to see what the crack is when i wanna start building
i know what spec (and what parts) i want to use
its just a case of getting the headwork and stuff done by people
ill put it together myself and hope it goes to plan lol

ill give it to gdi to fit and get an omex wired in at the same time aswell
hopefully it goes to plan

[bullit]

Thanks for all the info guys, very very helpful. Just to let you know (as you might have already guessed with basic/poor knowledge of engine performance/mods) im a newbie, so go easy. I've had the Sax about 2 years now with a few mods (e.g sat nav de-badges/flushed - boot/handles/bonnet) but have been looking/planning to spend BIG money on getting this sax looking good and going pretty damn fast. Not interested in any new cars coz there 2 bloody heavy and i love the pace of the sax in standard form let alone after mods, there also so much fun

it may be an idea to look into boost aswell. more power for your money

[bigbadboy]

Just 1 more question completly different subject but i was just wondering if it were possible to make a Custom "H-Gate" Short-Shift, Quick-Gear change and surround with aluminum gear stick & finish "Ferrari" style. If you go onto google and search in pictures "Ferrari Gaters" you'll know what im on about. Does anyone know any companies that would allow me to do this?

[Ryan]

the gearbox is a H pattern.
you would need a box machining around the gearstick etc..

and it would look quite ghey.

[Dboyvts]

If your looking for 250 hp talk to john at gmc motorsport he will get you that and more withthe help of a rotrex charger kit..

[bigbadboy]

Custom Titanium Quad Exhaust System
Twin Carbon Fibre Air Induction
Power Boost Valve
Fuel Pump
Crankcase Vent filter
Radiator
Intercooler
Throttle Bodies
Big Valve head
Solid lifters
ANS Standalone Management
Lightweight Flywheel
Lightweight Clutch
Crankshaft: Forged Knife-Edged, Balanced & Lightened
Forged Valves
Forged Con Rods
Forged Pistons/Rings
Layered Head Gasket
Valve Springs
Camshafts
Titanium Retainers
Seals
Pulley
Spark Plugs
Quaife LSD
Cam belt
Cam pulleys
ECU Re-map
Drive shaft
Baffled Sump
Bearings
Injectors
Re-built Engine
Re-built Gearbox
Ported & Polished
Sandblasted Internals
Carbon Fibre Engine-Bay Covers
TURBOCHARGER

Have changed my list of mods now but was wondering in what order should i go out about doing them in? And whats gay about a H-Gate gearleaver?? They look class

[dannygti]

boost can get you the 250bhp you are after with half the price of getting 200bhp n/a :)

[bullit]

an intercooler lol?

[Ryan]

why the hell do you want a quad exhaust on a high power car exactly?

I think the list is still full of alot of words you have slected from other bits randomly. like throttle bodies at the top then turbo at the bottom. PLus fse boost valves as i said are shite,


solid lifters. WHY? what type of cam are you planning as most boosted cams ofther than 1 car i know being built are a hydro grind.

Ring a tuner get a spec designed for you.

[Ryan]

boost can get you the 250bhp you are after with half the price of getting 200bhp n/a :)

but NA sounds better at 8k :homme:

Supercharger is deffo the best in terms of an all round power imo, good big power with a nice linear delivery compaired to the turbo

[bullit]

didnt notice turbo lol

you need to decide if your going na or boost,you cant mix and match. high lift cams dont go with boost, so no lifters

[Dboyvts]

Best and prob cheepest way would be.

Jp4 head ( from 206 or c2 16v )
forged low comp pistons
forged rods ( not really needed but will make it safe)
4x 480cc injectors
standalone ecu ie kms or omex
boost spec cams
new manifold + decat exhaust
helix paddle clutch
rotrex sp84 supercharger + bracket and belt
intercooler
oil cooler
bigger rad
baffle for sump.

that would get you the 200-250 mark if not more

[Ryan]

didnt notice turbo lol

you need to decide if your going na or boost,you cant mix and match. high lift cams dont go with boost, so no lifters

depends if you speak to john atm, johns convinced someone to try a different type of charged engine with power higher up so should reuce the torque which kills boxes etc. aswell as running insane speeds.

hes using a solid grind cam as far as im aware with the boost :panic:

[Dboyvts]

john is also running a good bit over 300hp @ wheels lol

[bullit]

depends if you speak to john atm, johns convinced someone to try a different type of charged engine with power higher up so should reuce the torque which kills boxes etc. aswell as running insane speeds.

hes using a solid grind cam as far as im aware with the boost :panic:

john should come back on here

[Ryan]

john is also running a good bit over 300hp @ wheels lol

its not his engine that is with this type though hes convinced someone else to do it.

should be good when done.

[dannygti]

depends if you speak to john atm, johns convinced someone to try a different type of charged engine with power higher up so should reuce the torque which kills boxes etc. aswell as running insane speeds.

hes using a solid grind cam as far as im aware with the boost :panic:

i hinted this method in another thread ;)

i just looked at the spec list...
sandblasted internals !!!!!! WTF.

if you plan to spend a good bit of money then take everyones advice and speak to a tuner with a good reputation.

[VtsTom]

At what Rpm Ryan? Something mad like 9k isnt it?

[dannygti]

its not his engine that is with this type though hes convinced someone else to do it.

should be good when done.

you know who dont you?? :P

[Ryan]

danny no i wonder :P

i also didnt get the sandblasted internals.

why would you sandblast internals which are forged

[bigbadboy]

OK as you lot have slated me for putting down sandblsted internals ill give that a miss. I'll probs be looking @ a catcam perforamce/road worthy camshaft

[Ryan]

where have you been getting your information from as its all over the place.

people have given you specs for ideas yet you still keep posting bits which either dont work together, are not needed, or just damn ludacrous.

people are not slating they are trying to help you.

[bullit]

OK as you lot have slated me for putting down sandblsted internals ill give that a miss. I'll probs be looking @ a catcam perforamce/road worthy camshaft

dont mind ryan. ;) sorry if it comes that way, only helping mate

catcam,performance road cam is pretty fague for anything

just have a monster search for lots of other threads. and try understand some more so you know where to go. just dont do anything without loads of reseach

[dannygti]

agree with ryan.

what would of been a better question is

" im wanting my car for x, i want to spend y and would like to know a preffered tuning method to get there" ;)

[AlexR]

It's not sandblasted internals, it's shot peened, which is where beads of metal are used to blast parts, it makes them stronger.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shot_peening

[AlexB]

biggestthing is how reliable a car do you want
(well its not reliability but a high spec car needs to be well maintained and will be useless for pootling in traffic ect)

if you dont use it much then a high spec isnt a problem

if i were you id just go for breathing mods and a set of decent cams around a 708 or ph3 profile with a decent short box (xsi or s2 rallye)
itll be very fast compared to most stuff being as a saxo is a tin and doesnt weigh much
plus it will be usable every day as long as its mapped well (as those cams will needthe oe ecu remapped at least)
i had a similar spec (minus the shorter box) on my old vts and it was very good day to day yet if you put your foot down it went very well

[KamRacing]

STOP!!

You are looking at this the wrong way.
To get over 200bhp you cannot look at forums etc and pick all the good bits.
You will need to find a decent enginebuilder with experience of the engine and has got good results. They will tell YOU what you need.

The next thing is this. If you want 230bhp from a saxo 16v you will need a race engine if you want to stay n/a.
This means your car will not idle, will not be good on fuel, will have no power below 5k rpm and will not easily pass an MOT (if at all). Any engine builder who does not tell you this is one to walk away from.

Your race engine will not be suitable as an everyday road car which I think your car really is.

Your only option is to go for a supercharger and John at GMC is your man. Its expensive but not as much as the race engine and 250bhp is easy to achieve and its driveable day in day out (if you listen to Johns advice).

If you want a fast n/a car then you need to be more realistic and build a car for your needs and not to get a big power figure. Theres loads to do to a car before even looking at the engine to get more power at the wheels.

Kev

[JamesR]

where is GMC actually based?

[AlexB]

where is GMC actually based?

scotland somewere iirc

[Ryan]

where is GMC actually based?

the middle of nowhere in scotland.

johns work and reputation is fantastic, albeit if sometimes his sales pitches can be OTT, dont be put off by it as theyve ficxed alot of fucked cars.

[AlexB]

after seeing a few vids of tams ax (with big gmc logos on so assuming was done there) i would give my car to them if i was going boosted

that things just madness in a french tin can

[Ryan]

john seems to be one of the very few tuners who can actually build a supercharged engine that wont fall appart every week.

[MaRiO89]

220-230bhp is acheivable N/A from the TU 16v..It will tick over if setup properly..Just look at the Citroen Sport C2's and Saxo's..They all tick over ok..All the ones i have encountered seem to anyway, whether thats on the internet or in real life..

Engines like this though are not really that practicle for everyday use..

[Ryan]

220-230bhp is acheivable N/A from the TU 16v..It will tick over if setup properly..Just look at the Citroen Sport C2's and Saxo's..They all tick over ok..All the ones i have encountered seem to anyway, whether thats on the internet or in real life..

Engines like this though are not really that practicle for everyday use..


they are restricted to that james. However the power isnt the problem, its the gearbox, else id wang some bigger exhaust valves and new cams in mine.

the MA gearset is quite shit for a peaky NA engine.

[AlexR]

I'm pretty certain 250 n/a would be possible on standard exhaust valves.

[MaRiO89]

I know they are restricted to that Ryan by the rules of their class..I wouldnt know if you could get loads more out of them though..