Lend Toad a hand fitting iTBs [Archive] - Saxperience

dannygti

26th March 2009, 19:32

You gotta cut the bulkhead for these toad?

nope mate, he wont have to. only unless he's going to be using 90mm trumpets.

oh thinking about it.... Toad cut your scuttle man, longer trumpets will make better spread of power (generally) and cutting scuttle will save weight :P

dannygti

26th March 2009, 19:34

just a taster of what you should be expecting, yours will be a fair bit quicker.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r6UzFgcVu7k

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nkpQxeJ7pFc

raunchz

26th March 2009, 19:40

just a taster of what you should be expecting, yours will be a fair bit quicker.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r6UzFgcVu7k

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nkpQxeJ7pFc

Goes and sounds awesome !

Toad

26th March 2009, 19:55

Yes Danny, will be getting the 90mm trumpets. They squeeze in, just, but I'll have the scuttle oowt too! ;)

dannygti

26th March 2009, 19:57

Yes Danny, will be getting the 90mm trumpets. They squeeze in, just, but I'll have the scuttle oowt too! ;)

definately cut the scuttle mate, from what sandy says it could potentially make a large difference.

Toad

26th March 2009, 20:09

Yes, it's apparently a very good area for pulling in air!

raunchz

26th March 2009, 20:42

I'm planning on cutting mine, just a nice oval cut out in the scuttle - as appears to be the only way of having a long inlet length with a filter, whilst looking to leave enough room between the end of the trumpet and the inside of the trumpet.

dannygti

26th March 2009, 20:45

you guys might want to look into something like this maybe??
it can accomodate 90mm trumpets.

http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g267/dannysax/DSC01514.jpg

Toad

26th March 2009, 20:48

I might use that if I had to use the car in the wet...

dannygti

26th March 2009, 20:59

I might use that if I had to use the car in the wet...

its a good filter, the only ball ache is having to make the baseplate to fit the boddies correctly.

Matty-VTR

26th March 2009, 21:13

Toad if my dad is mapping it then he will want to play around with trumpet sizes so get that scuttle cut ;)

raunchz

26th March 2009, 21:21

you guys might want to look into something like this maybe??
it can accomodate 90mm trumpets.

http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g267/dannysax/DSC01514.jpg

I looks good. I've got a 50mm stepped baseplate already, so only need around 40mm internal height inside the filter I think to try and give the trumpets some space.

Am in no rush for a filter at the moment but will get it on for mapping

dannygti

26th March 2009, 21:30

if you got space go for super long 120mm trumpets :afro:

Toad

26th March 2009, 22:15

Toad if my dad is mapping it then he will want to play around with trumpet sizes so get that scuttle cut ;)

Hi mate.

I would only be bringing the one set of air horns... Unless I change my mind and go Jenvey... I will need to speak with your dad again. He was mean't to call today, but didn't.

Toad

26th March 2009, 22:15

if you got space go for super long 120mm trumpets :afro:

Seriously?

dannygti

26th March 2009, 22:20

Seriously?

yep, you look at any tuned engine on boddies, they generally use as long a trumpet as they can get away with. unless its and out and out racer with peaky engine...

most of the highly tuned westfields have cut outs in the bonnet to get long trumpet length.

Matty-VTR

26th March 2009, 22:31

Hi mate.

I would only be bringing the one set of air horns... Unless I change my mind and go Jenvey... I will need to speak with your dad again. He was mean't to call today, but didn't.

Hes got a good selection for the jenvey, don't know if they will fit KMS? He was out for his anniversary today mate he will tommorow:y:

Matty-VTR

26th March 2009, 22:32

yep, you look at any tuned engine on boddies, they generally use as long a trumpet as they can get away with. unless its and out and out racer with peaky engine...

most of the highly tuned westfields have cut outs in the bonnet to get long trumpet length.

The larger the better is not always the case mate, but usually is lol

dannygti

26th March 2009, 22:37

The larger the better is not always the case mate, but usually is lol

im not talking about larger, im talking longer. in 90% of situation a long induction length will give more midrange and top end power than short induction length. then you get seriously involved when it comes to a "tuned induction length" the distance from valve to bell of trumpet. then you use pulse tuning to draw more air into the cylinders, the old gt40 used to use this method of tuning. they put a plate a set distance form the carbs so the pulses drew more air in...clever shit really.

Toad

26th March 2009, 22:46

Hes got a good selection for the jenvey, don't know if they will fit KMS? He was out for his anniversary today mate he will tommorow:y:

No worries :)

I don't think the Jenvey horns will fit the KMS'...

I could get a 90mm and a 120mm set for the KMS bodies, and your dad could have 2 options. And TBH, I can't see the engine wanting any shorter than 90mm, so that might work out OK.

Ferg

26th March 2009, 22:56

If you ever need a hand fitting let me know man ...

Toad

26th March 2009, 23:10

Thank for the offer Ferg. ;)

KamRacing

27th March 2009, 00:35

To my knowledge the KMS throttlebodies are still out of stock at the manufacturer.
Toad I have another possible option for you though as the guy who is building my car makes his own inlet manifolds and gets rather good results....

Kev

Barry123

27th March 2009, 00:52

I'm up for coming and just sitting around and chilling about :y:

dj_russell

27th March 2009, 00:52

im sure in that vid that was my old mate andys vti??? any idea who it is in the 106??? and thats sweet as fuck.

jpsaxo

27th March 2009, 10:37

I'd go with a Sandy inlet and Jenvey's imo... Will give you the best possible induction angle!

rushy_23

27th March 2009, 10:43

I'd go with a Sandy inlet and Jenvey's imo... Will give you the best possible induction angle!

Ive read up on quite a few of these setups Toad, also the Sandy Inlet with GSXR bodies. Very positive results, I was really suprised and some of these were without any headwork/cams!

Toad

27th March 2009, 11:58

OK chaps. I can go Jenvey, that's fine. But I need some help here...

a) If I go with a Sandy manifold, what length air horns can I get that will just about protrude the scuttle?

b) There's various different types of Jenvey bodies, and I have NO idea which ones to get - Any help?

c) Dave, the person mapping the car, will try different length air horns anyway, so perhaps I don't need to worry too much about 'a'... But I would still like to get the right ballpark length in case he doesn't have the required size.

d) How can I get a Sandy manifold, and will it match any Jenvey bodies I decide to get?

Matty-VTR

27th March 2009, 17:04

The guy who makes the manifolds is called 'sandy brown' or something like that

raunchz

27th March 2009, 22:39

Have a look at my progress thread as have some pics when I trial fitted mine.

Is a sandy inlet, dcoe bodies and 60mm trumpets - is very close to the scuttle, 90mm would just protrude.

Toad

27th March 2009, 23:22

Thanks for that. That's given me a good idea with regard to spacing.

I'm just wondering... I could have sworn someone on here said that you only need the Sandy inlet with the old type of Jenveys... I'm a little lost now.

raunchz

28th March 2009, 06:11

Yeh, the 'old' type is a dcoe spacing. I only went for them as they fitted the inlet manifold and people had had good results in the past (plus they are cheaper than going for the singles like SF's from Jenvey)

Ryan

28th March 2009, 15:13

I'd go with a Sandy inlet and Jenvey's imo... Will give you the best possible induction angle!

and DTH wont josh???

Theres no inlet manifold with DTH and the angle is in line with the head/valve line.

Ryan

28th March 2009, 15:15

Toad Sfs seem alot better than the DCOEs. Its what I had on my old engine, and josh is running (although both currently on a chadil manifold iirc)

Re scuttle. I can vouch for the fact the car runs better without, I removed my scuttle cover on the car and there was noticable difference, also the noise had me shitting it for a the first few drives, because it was alot louder I was worried it was exploding over 8k lol

Toad

28th March 2009, 17:08

OK, great. Thanks guys.

So if I go Jenvey, I go for their bodies called SF's, and they are DTH? Do you know what length air horns I would need with them? I've getting more and more confused! :wacko:

dannygti

28th March 2009, 17:13

what you need to do is find the overall length for the kms WITHOUT the trumpets on..
then find out length of jenveys with sandy inlet without trumpets on and then find out the length of the jenvey dth boddies without trumpets. then you can work out what length trumpets each one would need.

Ryan

28th March 2009, 17:16

OK, great. Thanks guys.

So if I go Jenvey, I go for their bodies called SF's, and they are DTH? Do you know what length air horns I would need with them? I've getting more and more confused! :wacko:

If they have an inlet manifold they are not DTH, the pugsport bodies are DTH which is what KMS ones are based on

Toad

28th March 2009, 17:24

So Jenvey don't have DTH bodies?

Ryan

28th March 2009, 17:30

not if the kit is using an inlet manifold.

see DTH
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v423/Quik_Pug/New%20Parts/DSC02326.jpg

Notice theres no seperate inlet manifold? just one casting and trumpets?

Toad

28th March 2009, 17:48

Yep... It's just that Danny mentioned DTH Jenveys above. Hence my confusion.

So, can you tell me about the difference between the DCOE's and the SF's please? It's looking like KMS bodies are out of stock, so I'll have to go Jenvey.

Ryan

28th March 2009, 17:54

SFs are indiciduals, DCOES are in pairs iirc.

(ill read properly later) iirc the DCOEs are a fair bit older design

Karl

28th March 2009, 17:55

fook me, just watched danny's youtube links of that bodied gti......
Gah, hunting for 3k.....

dannygti

28th March 2009, 17:58

SFs are indiciduals, DCOES are in pairs iirc.

(ill read properly later) iirc the DCOEs are a fair bit older design

thats right ryan. sf's are techincally better hence more expensive.:y:

Ryan

28th March 2009, 17:59

thats right ryan. sf's are techincally better hence more expensive.:y:

Yep i belive the SFs are easyer/better to set up, due to the individual design over the paired design.

Toad

28th March 2009, 18:01

So that won't bare any relevance with regard to the inlet manifold, correct? I'd still want the Sandy Brown one?

Toad

28th March 2009, 18:01

fook me, just watched danny's youtube links of that bodied gti......
Gah, hunting for 3k.....

Didn't look fast TBH...

Karl

28th March 2009, 18:07

Didn't look fast TBH...

Couldnt tell, cant see the speedo....just liked the loud paaaarp noises.

dannygti

28th March 2009, 18:10

So that won't bare any relevance with regard to the inlet manifold, correct? I'd still want the Sandy Brown one?

no. if you have the sf's they bolt to the head directly....

im pretty sure craig (vtr130160190) had the sf's?

Ryan

28th March 2009, 18:15

Danny SFs have an inlet manifold.

Ill go take pics of mine now

Ryan

28th March 2009, 18:19

The joys of having another engine sitting in the garage lol!!!

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y135/itsafastworld85/DSCF4094.jpg

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y135/itsafastworld85/DSCF4095.jpg

dannygti

28th March 2009, 18:21

ahhh i thought the sf's came with a mini manifold that came with the jenveys like kms.

what inlet manifold is that then?

Ryan

28th March 2009, 18:23

Irrc it would be the chadil which jenveys often are used with.

dannygti

28th March 2009, 18:24

i have to admit i really like the look of colin/sandy's new setup mentioned earlier in the thread. id probabl go with that one after the kms items.

Ryan

28th March 2009, 18:24

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e314/1FastPug/2009%20Fezza/DSCN0009.jpg

smaller one you mean?

Ryan

28th March 2009, 18:25

i have to admit i really like the look of colin/sandy's new setup mentioned earlier in the thread. id probabl go with that one after the kms items.

I really dont like the way the trumpets are machined for the bike TBs, donno why they just dont do anything for me.

dannygti

28th March 2009, 18:34

I really dont like the way the trumpets are machined for the bike TBs, donno why they just dont do anything for me.

they are fine :homme::homme:
if a 1 litre using them can produce 185bhp then im sure they will flow enough for a 1.6

what you want is the throttle boddies off the new ducatti 848.....pimp.

Ryan

28th March 2009, 18:37

No colin has machined his own ones for the cars from pics ive seen.

They just look a bit ghey :P

dannygti

28th March 2009, 18:41

No colin has machined his own ones for the cars from pics ive seen.

They just look a bit ghey :P

they might look gay but they work pretty well.

check these bad boys out....

http://www.dragonperformance.net/701-40.htm

Elliptical bodies are the future. :P

Ryan

28th March 2009, 18:42

That looks interesting :P

Ryan

28th March 2009, 18:59

just a taster of what you should be expecting, yours will be a fair bit quicker.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r6UzFgcVu7k

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nkpQxeJ7pFc

PS that doesnt rev high enough :P

ASW :P
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y135/itsafastworld85/th_Ryanbrands1.jpg (http://s4.photobucket.com/albums/y135/itsafastworld85/?action=view&current=Ryanbrands1.flv)

raunchz

28th March 2009, 19:09

in what way are they better? I couldn't envisage how hence I went for the dcoe - plus I didn't think colin satchel does an inlet for sf's.

dannygti

28th March 2009, 19:18

sf's are better because you can balance each individual tb more accurately.. if they were not better in at least one way why would jenvey make them?

raunchz

28th March 2009, 20:07

sf's are better because you can balance each individual tb more accurately.. if they were not better in at least one way why would jenvey make them?

I don't know hence asking - maybe produced them for 5 cylinders? I can see about the balancing, I presume this advantage comes as each injector is different needing each cylinder to be balanced.

Ryan

28th March 2009, 20:13

whole point of bodies is to allow equal airflow into each cylinder for optimum charge, this is more needed on wilder cams as in most cases you get robbing of some cylinders due to poor inlet manifold design.

having the ability to balance each cylinder individually is a massive thing over pairs.

dannygti

28th March 2009, 20:15

I don't know hence asking - maybe produced them for 5 cylinders? I can see about the balancing, I presume this advantage comes as each injector is different needing each cylinder to be balanced.

you have raised another point why they make them.

obviosly cars like honda nsx/clio v6/nissan 350z have v6's the singl body design allows you to use 3 in a line for these type of application.

Toad

29th March 2009, 18:20

Feck me, this is getting complicated... :(

Ryan

29th March 2009, 20:28

Not really toad. Just wait buy the KMS DTH ones and jobs sorted.

No inlet manifold to fanny about with etc...

Toad

30th March 2009, 11:26

OK, I had a feeling they were unavailable, but I'll look into it. No idea what's happened to KamRacing, they've disappeared...

Toad

30th March 2009, 11:27

BTW Ryan, as yours protrude the bulkhead, what do you do in the rain?

Ste

30th March 2009, 11:32

BTW Ryan, what do you do in the rain?

Wheelspins id imagine :p

Toad

30th March 2009, 12:00

I've just off the phone to QEP. The KMS DTH bodies are no longer available. Apparently QEP haven't had a delivery of them since last July!

Now, QEP explained to me that they've a newly developed set, and are just waiting for the inlet manifolds. I believe the inlet mani is ally and apparently very special... He said they did back to back results with these new bodies compared to the Jenveys, and on the Duratec engines, there was a 20bhp increase in comparision! So I was strongly advised to wait for them... Which I will... :)

Ryan

30th March 2009, 12:05

leeroybrown

30th March 2009, 12:17

They are probably the AT bodies then.

Toad I just drive it like normal in the rain, the amount of water you will draw in will be vaporised, anyway really. When i park it I use a plastic bag or scuttle cover

Pretty much what my best mate did with his.

Although his sat further back then Ryans and driving in the rain it did not like one bit!

Toad

30th March 2009, 12:23

OK, gottcha.

No, I asked about them being AT, and they're not. From France I think he said. He mentioned how badly the AT bodies did with the Renaults... ;)

Ryan

30th March 2009, 12:35

OK, gottcha.

No, I asked about them being AT, and they're not. From France I think he said. He mentioned how badly the AT bodies did with the Renaults... ;)

LOL! fair enough with matt there then.

Id wait and see when matts getting them and see if he will sort a deal on being an example of them in use :P

Ryan

30th March 2009, 12:36

Pretty much what my best mate did with his.

Although his sat further back then Ryans and driving in the rain it did not like one bit!

what car was that on?

As not many people have a longer inlet tract than mine atm.

Toad

30th March 2009, 12:50

leeroybrown

30th March 2009, 12:56

what car was that on?

As not many people have a longer inlet tract than mine atm.

This was an R6 bike TB conversation

Ryan

30th March 2009, 12:57

This was an R6 bike TB conversation

So massively long inlet manifold then?

Ryan

30th March 2009, 12:58

I doubt it. He quoted me roughly £1200 for the package. He said the KMS DTH set up was around £900, so these are a fair me more monies. I hope they're worth it... But he did sound rather excited about them to be honest.

well matt does have a dyno room aswell (or did) I dont know whats happened to QEP recently been a few rumours about.

leeroybrown

30th March 2009, 13:03

So massively long inlet manifold then?

Bogg brothers special, problem with something that long is how the hell do you get air to it!

Ryan

30th March 2009, 13:07

Bogg brothers special, problem with something that long is how the hell do you get air to it!

Same as normal, Just leave the bodies to their own devices, they generally get the air they need, removing the scuttle is generally popular due to the pressure of the air in the area beneath the windscreen.

im not exactly running short trumpets ontop either lol. if his was longer it would need the scuttle chopping for sure in anycase, then just leave them to do their job lol

leeroybrown

30th March 2009, 13:08

Yeah we did remove some of it.

only made 160bhp and about 135 torque, did make good mid range power.

Awesome sound tbh, when it ran...Some many problems with it killing the woodrift key and bending all the bigger valves!

Ryan

30th March 2009, 13:13

Im still not a fan of bike bodies, seen many cars run shit on them when the same type of internals with Jenveys or similar made better power.

Alot of that isusually because people are doing it on the cheap mind, and so have crap inlet designs, and mount the bodies on samco hoses which dont exactly give a nice inlet tract imo.

Mine never missed a beat in the rain at brands either, although i do prefer to try not to use it in the rain.

Ste

30th March 2009, 13:15

Same as normal, Just leave the bodies to their own devices, they generally get the air they need, removing the scuttle is generally popular due to the pressure of the air in the area beneath the windscreen.

im not exactly running short trumpets ontop either lol. if his was longer it would need the scuttle chopping for sure in anycase, then just leave them to do their job lol

I was reading a book about bodies and the air flow, it specifically mentioned the air below the windscreen, it said its too turbulant for the bodies to deal with and mix with the fuel correctly. Ive left the book at home otherwise id get the exact info from it.

But basically having a filter over the bodies produced more power than not having a filter due to the filter tidying up the turbulant air. And, although i hate k&n, the best filter used was a k&n. It described it like having semi forced induction due to the way the air whips downards past the bonnet but it needed the flow correcting to improve the power.

EDIT: The gains were only a small percentage but its focused towards racing engines where every bit makes the difference so for your engine i suppose you'd be interested.

Im not sure if it really counts due to the recess the saxo has but it was very interesting reading. If your bothered ill type up the section to see if its relevant.

leeroybrown

30th March 2009, 13:16

I remember going down to Emerald to see Dave Walker to have it mapped and it just died in the rain

Ryan

30th March 2009, 13:19

Filter socks are well known to loose alot of power. Which is why people tend to not use them. Dave walker threw the ones off mine in the bin when Ian origianally had it mapped lol

I know mine runs alot lot better without the scuttle cover in place than when I have the cover in.

There will allways be different conflicting opinions on anything mind.

leeroybrown

30th March 2009, 13:20

Best thing to do is try buy a fast car standard...Less hassle i have learnt :}

Ryan

30th March 2009, 13:21

Thats what decent daily drivers are for.

Even when I buy a dedicated RWD track toy I will not keep it standard, its all part of the fun.

leeroybrown

30th March 2009, 13:26

Has to be a mrk2 escort Ryan others wise your just gay lol

Ryan

30th March 2009, 13:29

Has to be a mrk2 escort Ryan others wise your just gay lol

at the prices for ford heritage cars not a chance.

A friend/s will have a mad spec mk2 soon, the joys of working for a ford mag lol!

Id just go for a seven if moving to a fun RWD dedicated track toy.

I still want a mexico one day

Ste

30th March 2009, 13:51

Best thing to do is try buy a fast car standard...Less hassle i have learnt :}

But then everyone has the same car. :homme:

But id still have an Ultima GTR.

My mate is building an Xr3i as a resto project - hes pretty much finished but he fitted his new fuel pump left the old tank on and clogged up the new pump with shit so hes put him self back a bit, but once he gets taht out of his garage then his dads old escort rally shell and his new 400bhp cosworth engine will be mated. - He's a Lucky bastard, he inherited the Xr with only 30k and the shells been sat in his garage since he was born.

leeroybrown

30th March 2009, 13:52

By fast I mean fast...LOL not some clio or saxo lol

Ryan

30th March 2009, 14:03

By fast I mean fast...LOL not some clio or saxo lol

perfectly suited daily driver for me. Decent MPG, comfort and not exactly slow for a hatch.

I cant justify 18mpg for an m5 currently lol.

leeroybrown

30th March 2009, 14:10

Well you should Ryan lol

Jeri306

21st November 2014, 21:20

not if the kit is using an inlet manifold.

see DTH
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v423/Quik_Pug/New%20Parts/DSC02326.jpg

Notice theres no seperate inlet manifold? just one casting and trumpets?

What bodies this?:fcuk: :y: My turbo plenum want it ;)