Those Running ph3's 708's unmapped

[Steve]

Before anybody says i know its best to get a remap. :p

Those who are running them unmapped, i know you can get it to idle spot on.
Is it worth running without a map, as i dont plan on getting it mapped.
Read on a few places, you notice the difference lower end but feels standard top end through the revs.

Anyone had their unmapped car Rolling Roaded? If so what was the output?
And does it feel if any quicker than standard? And on the olde drag strip is it quicker along side a standard car?

Cheers
Stevemyster General III

[spiderxjz82]

I know your's is a VTS, but my 206 has a VTR in it, and while they're not the same, I can go down and get mine mapped on tuesday to get a before and after graph if you want and post it up on here.

[spiderxjz82]

It has a PH3 in it btw.

[AlexB]

mines currently unmapped and im not planning on mapping till i go standalone next year
but the car ist used much atm

mine on its 3 plug setup unmapped made 143.8
mapped 152.6

its now on a single plug so the map is gone (as its still on the old ecy)

[Steve]

mines currently unmapped and im not planning on mapping till i go standalone next year
but the car ist used much atm

mine on its 3 plug setup unmapped made 143.8
mapped 152.6

its now on a single plug so the map is gone (as its still on the old ecy)

cheers alex.

What does it run like? feel any better or not.
Mines a dam 3plug which have the shit reputation lol

I aint got the funds to get a remap.
Always said i would never stick cams in, but if they come along for the right deal i will lol

Will want them in before the ring in sept lol also ordering some torsion bars, not sure on size but al be creating another thread for that.
All this and i wanted rid of the car :zainy:
After going to the ring in it, was impressed to see where my money had gone for a change :D

[Toad]

The peak BHP figure, in this situation, is the most misleading factor there is! It's not about how much BHP there is at 7217rpm, it's about the driveablility, the size of the area where max lb/ft and max bhp are achieved, etc, etc.

Please don't cut corners and just throw a set of cams in with no mapping.

[Scribbles]

I've seen unmapped cars with cams and breathing mods make less than cars with just breathing mods. Its not all about peak figures any way a smooth torque and power curve will be better than a high peak with lots of flat spots.

IMO its not worth running with out a map as it won't be running to its full potential and driveabilty will be lost.

EDIT: Just read what Toad wrote, as you can see I completely agree.

[saxo_ron]

I had mine unmapped for a weekprior to mapping, flatspots, non smooth driveability, stalling and cutting out all very common. This was with ph3's btw. I have seen 708's run better than ph3's unmapped but dont do it.

[Liam_]

Was that at standard timing Ron?

Would be interesting to see how they run timed to what it says on the spec sheet.

[williamsvts]

i ran mine for 6 month unmapped and didnt notice any difference in power or driveability, it ran better unmapped than after it was mapped tbh.

[Steve]

obviously get them dialed in properly.

Cheers for the info.

Seen a few cars with 708s and not have flat spots, but they are the people who say it feels standard top end.

[Steve]

i ran mine for 6 month unmapped and didnt notice any difference in power or driveability, it ran better unmapped than after it was mapped tbh.

the reason for the thread is because you told me that lol

Al see if thorpe who's got your cams now will let me take her for a spin haha
He was getting much better mpg on the way to the ring than me and jim with them in.

[Liam_]

I'd give it a try tbh. PDTuning are charging me £90 to have my cam dialed in on Tuesday, that includes plenty of power runs and AFRs checked.

If you get pissed off, just go back to standard cams.

[williamsvts]

the reason for the thread is because you told me that lol

Al see if thorpe who's got your cams now will let me take her for a spin haha
He was getting much better mpg on the way to the ring than me and jim with them in.

i got better mpg aswell, and it drove 'smoother' before it was mapped.

[Toad]

i got better mpg aswell, and it drove 'smoother' before it was mapped.

That goes against all logic. But hey, shit happens.

[Steve]

can some boffin like sayer, explain how camming a car gets mpg its a piss take tbh lol

[Xsi16v_Jk]

Mine running 148bhp on a super 1600 ecu.
708 Catcams.
Basically plug in..

Pulls like a dream aswell.

[JoshB]

Nij's car had PH3's in unmapped. It doesnt idle very well but once running, the power delivery is very smooth and its very peaky.

[Steve]

Nij's car had PH3's in unmapped. It doesnt idle very well but once running, the power delivery is very smooth and its very peaky.

Think andy widds ran his unmapped and it was fine?
Can get uncle williams to get it to idle correctly ;)

Have not spoke to Nij for a while will pm him now.
Think rickyrpm fitted their cams.

[Toad]

can some boffin like sayer, explain how camming a car gets mpg its a piss take tbh lol

MPG will lower with wilder cams. Very straightforward as to why...

ECU mapping will often help in MPG, as it will improve efficiency.

[Xsi16v_Jk]

My idle is very good, first start (mornings mainly) its abit rough..but when shes warm :D.

Peaky indeed, the joy of cams :)

[Barry123]

can some boffin like sayer, explain how camming a car gets mpg its a piss take tbh lol

not a fucking clue.

[JoshB]

Think andy widds ran his unmapped and it was fine?
Can get uncle williams to get it to idle correctly ;)

Have not spoke to Nij for a while will pm him now.
Think rickyrpm fitted their cams.

Yup RickyP fitted em, and it had headwork done as well though.

[Barry123]

actually I think it's probably because for much of the time the engine runs a tad leaner than usual, as the cams allow more air to go per cycle.... that's all I can think of.

[Steve]

MPG will lower with wilder cams. Very straightforward as to why...

ECU mapping will often help in MPG, as it will improve efficiency.

It doesnt though thats the thing, even unmapped people get better mpg over standard. Well from those i have spoken to.
Rons mapped gets stupidly better mpg.

Obviously when hammering its less, but general driving its much better.

[Steve]

actually I think it's probably because for much of the time the engine runs a tad leaner than usual, as the cams allow more air to go per cycle.... that's all I can think of.

get to the boffin books!

I text you back the other day btw, i was asleep at 2355 hours lol

[williamsvts]

i wouldnt bother with cams tbh haha, boost or nitrous ftw or both!!!!!!!!!

[Steve]

My idle is very good, first start (mornings mainly) its abit rough..but when shes warm :D.

Peaky indeed, the joy of cams :)

mines rough anyway over the winter and cold mornings tbh...
Even cuts out at times.

[Toad]

It doesnt though thats the thing, even unmapped people get better mpg over standard. Well from those i have spoken to.
Rons mapped gets stupidly better mpg.

Obviously when hammering its less, but general driving its much better.

It's not. End of. Not to sound nasty, but if you understood the principles behind how cam shafts work, you would see why. :hug:

[Steve]

i wouldnt bother with cams tbh haha, boost or nitrous ftw or both!!!!!!!!!

so you can run 13 seconds like that vtr at york :wink:

[Steve]

It's not. End of. Not to sound nasty, but if you understood the principles behind how cam shafts work, you would see why. :hug:

nowt nasty about it :hug:

But i am saying from cars i have been in and people spoken to they some how get better mpg.

Thats why i wanted someone to explain how.

Obviously i can see they cause more use of air and fuel, which should make it worse. But general driving they get better mpg.

Williams confirmed that earlier aswel.
Lad who i went to the ring with whos are unmapped got better mpg.

Just dont get how......
Not really fussed as its not the purpose of why i created the thread, was mainly to see how peoples cars run, of course everyones are going to be different, but a general idea would be nice :D

[spiderxjz82]

Bizarrely, my cammed 1.6 gets around 38-42mpg when I go to uni and back, granted 60% is motorway, but my 1.4 before was crap at about 32mpg.

[Liam_]

This is probably totally wrong, but could it be to do with where the power band is? As it's raised slighty, when you're driving round town and keeping the revs low, there's less chance of the engine being 'on cam' than there would be with the standard setup.

[Nij]

alright kiddas

aye Ricky fitted mine.
the idle was a problem mainly down to a sticky throttle cable - used to idel at about 2.5k!!!!! hmmmm
but it has a slightly lumpy idle, but revs like a trooper.
162.4bhp on a superchipped ecu and 158.4 on a stock ecu.
cam timing has to be retarded (like me, yeah we know all the jokes) by 2deg.
as for against a stock VTS, pisses all over it, but opnly had a Civic thingy on the strip - and if the throttle cable had not have snapped, we recon we would have beaten it - just.

owt else, pm me steve ;)

[Steve]

alright kiddas

aye Ricky fitted mine.
the idle was a problem mainly down to a sticky throttle cable - used to idel at about 2.5k!!!!! hmmmm
but it has a slightly lumpy idle, but revs like a trooper.
162.4bhp on a superchipped ecu and 158.4 on a stock ecu.
cam timing has to be retarded (like me, yeah we know all the jokes) by 2deg.
as for against a stock VTS, pisses all over it, but opnly had a Civic thingy on the strip - and if the throttle cable had not have snapped, we recon we would have beaten it - just.

owt else, pm me steve ;)

haha cheers mate.....

[Nij]

This is probably totally wrong, but could it be to do with where the power band is? As it's raised slighty, when you're driving round town and keeping the revs low, there's less chance of the engine being 'on cam' than there would be with the standard setup.

my power band is 7000rpm - so left my limiter at 7200!
http://i276.photobucket.com/albums/kk23/Nij48/1624BHP.jpg

[Steve]

^^^ is that on the standard ecu nij?

[Toad]

This is probably totally wrong, but could it be to do with where the power band is? As it's raised slighty, when you're driving round town and keeping the revs low, there's less chance of the engine being 'on cam' than there would be with the standard setup.

Yeah, wrong. ;)

Let's discuss just the idle state... The wilder the cams, the more fuel is used on the ilde, hence more emissions. This is due to the durations of the cams, and something which is called valve overlap. The point of the performance cams, is to try and get the mixture in to the cylinder as quick as possible, and to do this, the inlet valve will open earlier than normal. As the RPM increases, so does the speed of the mixture surging into the cylinder. But if the inlet valve just shuts off, the acceleration / flow of the mixture will be hindered.

[JoshB]

as for against a stock VTS, pisses all over it, but opnly had a Civic thingy on the strip - and if the throttle cable had not have snapped, we recon we would have beaten it - just.



I'd second that, you had him all the way until the change into 3rd and thats when it went! Not bad at all against what is at stock 167bhp and that had full breathing mods, was probs pushing out around 180-185ish

[Ryan]

A consideration for a couple of cars running worse when mapped could be that the map being used isnt the best.

Food for thought?

Just thought id throw that into the mix.

[JoshB]

A consideration for a couple of cars running worse when mapped could be that the map being used isnt the best.

Food for thought?

Just thought id throw that into the mix.

Like Generic maps for instance

"we can remap your car at your house".....yeah right.

[Scribbles]

You can see on Nij's dyno print out that its running a bit lean between 2500-5000rpm which would explain better MPG with normal driving.

Stoiciometric for petrol is 14.7 AFR which its not far off past 5000rpm.

[Ferg]

It's an interesting debate ...

My PH3's will be going in soon. Idealy at some point in the very near future it will be mapped also but i'd like to have the cams in for some time before that. Obv if the Pred ECU ever gets sorted to buy and fit all that will come around alot quicker.

I remember when DaveW had his Black VTS which was unmapped on 708's but had pretty good timing. That thing was sooo quick it's unreal.

[AlexB]

mine was a bit odd with its power output unmapped on 3 plug it depended what gear what/revs i put my foot down at and if it had cut out recently (it did a fair bit when stopping)
85% of the time it went fairly well tbh
but on odd occasions it would chug or just hit a massive flatspot mid range
it also idled like a bag of spanners

on the single plug it seems better tbh
however the main difference is the timing here
when i had it mapped wayne tweaked the timing so im not on standard marks anymore
still idles lumpy but ive not had a flatspot or cut out yet in it (ive only drove it small amounts on a quiet estate though atm

and i cant go for a decent drive then report for a while as its in bits again

[Steve]

Just been to my mates and drove his which me and williams put 708's in.

Lumpy idle which i dont mind, when it was cold, it doesnt feel like a flat spot through the rev range, just feels a very slight delay in reacting to your foot being stuck to the floor.
E.g under 2k revs, there wasnt much then it feels to pull.

Once warmed that went, does feel a fair bit quicker tbh.
Was impressed, was expecting loads of flat spots throughout the rev range....
Also felt nice and smooth all the way through.
Idle was under 1k, lumpy ness doesnt bother me.

Of course i would prefer a remap but cant afford one, only getting cams if i get a good deal on them.

When i followed him to the ring, i got 280ish to a tank he got 360ish :|
Both motorway driving at the same speed aswel... ghey :homme:

Cheers for everyones comments so far.

[Liam_]

You can see on Nij's dyno print out that its running a bit lean between 2500-5000rpm which would explain better MPG with normal driving.

Stoiciometric for petrol is 14.7 AFR which its not far off past 5000rpm.

Will that affect the life of the engine at all?

In the example Steve has just given above, surely the cammed engine would have to be running massively lean to give an extra 80 miles from a tank of fuel?

[Mieran]

So let me get this straight...

If you run ph3/708 un-mapped you get better mpg than standard and once its mapped you still get better mpg? I thought they're suppose to use more fuel!

So is the best mpg achieved when mapped or un-mapped?

:geek:

[Steve]

So let me get this straight...

If you run ph3/708 un-mapped you get better mpg than standard and once its mapped you still get better mpg? I thought they're suppose to use more fuel!

So is the best mpg achieved when mapped or un-mapped?

:geek:

be mapped.... but thats not the point of the thread lol

[Nij]

^^^ is that on the standard ecu nij?

a ecu set up for breathing and exhaust mods not camming or head work

[Mieran]

be mapped.... but thats not the point of the thread lol

it was a :hijack:

sorry

[Steve]

it was a :hijack:

sorry

get out :afro:

[williamsvts]

A consideration for a couple of cars running worse when mapped could be that the map being used isnt the best.

Food for thought?

Just thought id throw that into the mix.

thats prob what was up with mine.

[williamsvts]

alright kiddas

aye Ricky fitted mine.
the idle was a problem mainly down to a sticky throttle cable - used to idel at about 2.5k!!!!! hmmmm
but it has a slightly lumpy idle, but revs like a trooper.
162.4bhp on a superchipped ecu and 158.4 on a stock ecu.
cam timing has to be retarded (like me, yeah we know all the jokes) by 2deg.
as for against a stock VTS, pisses all over it, but opnly had a Civic thingy on the strip - and if the throttle cable had not have snapped, we recon we would have beaten it - just.

owt else, pm me steve ;)

you dont retard both cams, need approx 1.55mm lift on each cam. and that means moving them opposite directions.

[Nij]

you dont retard both cams, need approx 1.55mm lift on each cam. and that means moving them opposite directions.

mine is only the exhaust cam IIRC

[Mieran]

A consideration for a couple of cars running worse when mapped could be that the map being used isnt the best.

Food for thought?

Just thought id throw that into the mix.

thats prob what was up with mine.

I thought chip wizards were the best people at mapping?

[williamsvts]

i didnt say that...................... depends what day you go haha, i went on a friday and he was probably looking forward to the weeeeeeeeeeeekend.

[Ryan]

I thought chip wizards were the best people at mapping?

Personal opinion.

I know my car id rather use Dave Walker.

[Mieran]

Sax-p top tip: if you want a good map don't go on a Friday.

[Scribbles]

Will that affect the life of the engine at all?

In the example Steve has just given above, surely the cammed engine would have to be running massively lean to give an extra 80 miles from a tank of fuel?

Running lean isn't particularly good for the engine as there's more risk of detonation and if its doing that then odds are it won't last much longer.

Really couldn't comment on the extra 80 miles to a tank, could be a number of things I'd have thought it was more down to driving style though.

[Barry123]

You can see on Nij's dyno print out that its running a bit lean between 2500-5000rpm which would explain better MPG with normal driving.

Stoiciometric for petrol is 14.7 AFR which its not far off past 5000rpm.

wouldn't that fall under a different load point though, seeing as though it's cruise/light load for normal driving scibbles?

whereas the map above is under high load? :ponder:

[Toad]

Detonation isn't really something to be concerned about when you're talking engine life. Pre-ignition is bad. Don't confuse the two...

Lean is bad.

[Scribbles]

wouldn't that fall under a different load point though, seeing as though it's cruise/light load for normal driving scibbles?

whereas the map above is under high load? :ponder:

Yeah thats true, but I'd have thought if it runs lean at high load it would at low load as well?

Toad - Easy to confuse them as everyone I've met seems to have different names for them and contradicts other stuff I've been told/learnt.

[Toad]

Yeah thats true, but I'd have thought if it runs lean at high load it would at low load as well?

Toad - Easy to confuse them as everyone I've met seems to have different names for them and contradicts other stuff I've been told/learnt.

Yeah.. :)

Detonation is where end gasses is the chamber ignite spontaneously, so you don't get a smooth burn movement. Importantly, this all takes place AFTER the ignition stage in the cycle.

Pre-ignition is when the mixture ignites BEFORE the ignition cycle, so before the plug sparks. What makes this so bad is the general positioning of the piston at this point in time. It may only just be beginning its up stroke, so combustion at this point in time is very detromental.

[geordie555]

Just been to my mates and drove his which me and williams put 708's in.

Lumpy idle which i dont mind, when it was cold, it doesnt feel like a flat spot through the rev range, just feels a very slight delay in reacting to your foot being stuck to the floor.
E.g under 2k revs, there wasnt much then it feels to pull.

Once warmed that went, does feel a fair bit quicker tbh.
Was impressed, was expecting loads of flat spots throughout the rev range....
Also felt nice and smooth all the way through.
Idle was under 1k, lumpy ness doesnt bother me.

Of course i would prefer a remap but cant afford one, only getting cams if i get a good deal on them

When i followed him to the ring, i got 280ish to a tank he got 360ish :|
Both motorway driving at the same speed aswel... ghey :homme:

Cheers for everyones comments so far.

its a beast:y:, williams did a canny job(and you of course!) and seemed to set the timing set up really well, it hasnt cut out once yet. the manifold seems to have made a big difference as well. when ron gets his car all done i wouldnt mind seeing how much quicker his is to see if i could justify the cash for a map

[Steve]

its a beast:y:, williams did a canny job(and you of course!) and seemed to set the timing set up really well, it hasnt cut out once yet. the manifold seems to have made a big difference as well. when ron gets his car all done i wouldnt mind seeing how much quicker his is to see if i could justify the cash for a map

i it would be a good test, although he has an xsi box on.
Rons was and will be a gain lol a quick car.

[geordie555]

i know it will leave mine, just want to see how much tho, its alot of money to spend!

[Steve]

i know it will leave mine, just want to see how much tho, its alot of money to spend!

i lol, cheers again for letting me taking the olde girl out.
You still aint took me out in that scooby yet :afro:

[Mieran]

Can I also ask why go for a remap if you can get a predator ECU for around the same price?

[Steve]

Can I also ask why go for a remap if you can get a predator ECU for around the same price?

they have only just been released for starters :p

[geordie555]

i lol, cheers again for letting me taking the olde girl out.
You still aint took me out in that scooby yet :afro:


nee probs mate, i will mate take you out no probs

[Ari]

For anyone fitting cams and thinking of skimming the head to raise the C/R a little, see the section on 'STATIC CR VERSUS CAM DURATION--HOW MUCH IS LOST?@ for optimum set-up.


http://www.popularhotrodding.com/tech/0311_phr_compression_ratio_tech/index.html