want more without t/b s/c or turbo

[farry1988]

sorry if its been asked a few times before neways i have a cammed vts running 153bhp and i dont know what to do next to get abit more power without going down the t/b s/c or turbo route, does lightened flywheel, porting, headwork (not so knowageable on this) do anything worth while? if i do any of this will the car need to be mapped again to run smoothly with them? ve greatfull for any input, thanks

[Matt67]

Why don't you want to go down the forced induction route mate?

[farry1988]

trying to sum up if all the money will be worth it? im not sure? id really want to but the cons are out weighting the pros at the minute hmm

[Aron]

they will all make differences but nothing massive. properly will get away without a remap on them.

[Colin]

Decent clutch, flywheel, diff and a change of final drive?

[farry1988]

these more responsive mods rather then adding bhp because id like to aim for both?

[Matt67]

The stuff you have mentioned isn't cheap though mate, better of saving up and wopping a nice low boost setup on there.

[farry1988]

would the stuff i mentioned be needed anyway to run low boost reliably? i think its the only thing concerning me about turbos

[Matt67]

I don't think you need any of that ^^ iirc.

[farry1988]

i tried looking for a complete list of parts needed only one i could find is sophias thread but i havent a clue where to even start buying lol

[Matt67]

i tried looking for a complete list of parts needed only one i could find is sophias thread but i havent a clue where to even start buying lol

Find the turbo you want to use (research turbos) then collect parts from there.. decompression plate, fifth injector, intercooler.

[farry1988]

i have read countless threads about turbos and it still baffles me lol thats why i didnt really want to go down this route and trying to find other thing to give gains that seemed less complicated!

[luthor1]

It's fairly simple turbo wise...

Manifold, turbo, downpipe. That's the turbo clamped onto the car.
Oil feed to turbo, oil return from turbo to sump.
Water feed to turbo, water return.
Intercooler.
Boost pipework.
ECU, Injectors and Fuel Pump.
Forged low compression pistons, steel headgasket
10psi, 200-220bhp.

Job done!

Andy

[farry1988]

It's fairly simple turbo wise...

Manifold, turbo, downpipe. That's the turbo clamped onto the car.
Oil feed to turbo, oil return from turbo to sump.
Water feed to turbo, water return.
Intercooler.
Boost pipework.
ECU, Injectors and Fuel Pump.
Forged low compression pistons, steel headgasket
10psi, 200-220bhp.

Job done!

Andy


thank you so much andy i will defo have a look into by any chance do know where a good place to start buying?

[Matt67]

It's fairly simple turbo wise...

Manifold, turbo, downpipe. That's the turbo clamped onto the car.
Oil feed to turbo, oil return from turbo to sump.
Water feed to turbo, water return.
Intercooler.
Boost pipework.
ECU, Injectors and Fuel Pump.
Forged low compression pistons, steel headgasket
10psi, 200-220bhp.

Job done!

Andy

Great summary tbh.

[luthor1]

I would actually recommend the CiTuning kit with intercooler which may surprise you guys, but I will qualify that: DO NOT fit it without injectors, fuel pump and a STANDALONE ECU.

I'm also not a fan of 5th injectors, piggybacks, and that sort of thing - but I guess you all know I'm biased since I make a PnP ECU!!!

Kind regards
Andy

[farry1988]

okay so this thread didnt go the way i wanted it to lol you are all jusr making me want boost even more now haha i will look into citunings kit altho at a guess people will disagree, also look into sorcing the parts else where

[Legacy555]

sorry if its been asked a few times before neways i have a cammed vts running 153bhp and i dont know what to do next to get abit more power without going down the t/b s/c or turbo route, does lightened flywheel, porting, headwork (not so knowageable on this) do anything worth while? if i do any of this will the car need to be mapped again to run smoothly with them? ve greatfull for any input, thanks

I have a standard VTS engine with Kent cams, exhaust system, peugeot sport ram induction kit, remapped standard ECU, and Clio 172 injectors pushing out 165 bhp.

You can go a step further and add high compression pistons to get to about 175 bhp - but at that point the standard throttle starts to become restrictive and power increases stop.

The standard throttle body can be modified to give about 18% greater flow if your clever whilst retaining all the standard sensors - giving scope for more power once you've got to the point where it is restricting.

[JamesR]

Legacy why do you have 172 injectors?

And are you talkin about porting and polishing a throttle body? You would be VERY lucky if you got 2bhp, throttle response is good though.

[farry1988]

I have a standard VTS engine with Kent cams, exhaust system, peugeot sport ram induction kit, remapped standard ECU, and Clio 172 injectors pushing out 165 bhp.

You can go a step further and add high compression pistons to get to about 175 bhp - but at that point the standard throttle starts to become restrictive and power increases stop.

The standard throttle body can be modified to give about 18% greater flow if your clever whilst retaining all the standard sensors - giving scope for more power once you've got to the point where it is restricting.

that seems a tad high to be running just cams and getting 165bhp and i was always sure that you couldnt go over 170 without the need of bodies ect?

[Mathias]

I think that tb's would really suit your setup to be honest, your cams would not take well to boost anyway, tb's and some headwork paired with the predator would be ideal if you ask me! :)

If you wanted to get more power without any of those 3 then your going to have to fork out for lots of head work

[gouldy87]

I have a standard VTS engine with Kent cams, exhaust system, peugeot sport ram induction kit, remapped standard ECU, and Clio 172 injectors pushing out 165 bhp.

You can go a step further and add high compression pistons to get to about 175 bhp - but at that point the standard throttle starts to become restrictive and power increases stop.

The standard throttle body can be modified to give about 18% greater flow if your clever whilst retaining all the standard sensors - giving scope for more power once you've got to the point where it is restricting.

sorry mate but im not having that for a min. 172 injectors wont make any difference on your mods you have. kent cams dont have as large duration as 708s or PH3S fact. we ramg all the manufacturers prior to camming my vts last year and drew up a table of "lumpyness"

(btw these are for the cams you can run on the standard inlet manifold and tb before someone pipes up)

also where the hell did you get 18 percent better gas flow on a vts tb?

is done correctly they can give 2-3 bhp as i had a discussion about this with a very smart man from chipwizards.

there is no way you can get 18 percent better gas flow.

with your mods your going to be running about 150ish. unless you have had a your car on a "pub read out" dyno?

[AndySAXO]

sorry mate but im not having that for a min. 172 injectors wont make any difference on your mods you have. kent cams dont have as large duration as 708s or PH3S fact. we ramg all the manufacturers prior to camming my vts last year and drew up a table of "lumpyness"

(btw these are for the cams you can run on the standard inlet manifold and tb before someone pipes up)

also where the hell did you get 18 percent better gas flow on a vts tb?

is done correctly they can give 2-3 bhp as i had a discussion about this with a very smart man from chipwizards.

there is no way you can get 18 percent better gas flow.

with your mods your going to be running about 150ish. unless you have had a your car on a "pub read out" dyno?

spot on mate :y:

think 172 injectors i a bit big for the spec, so could lose some power due to that,

also dont forget take dyno reading lighly as they are not a true, but 165 for just cams and a gas flowed Tb wouldnt really see an 18% increase


andy

[AndySAXO]

as for the question, really if you want to get anymore really gains then you will have to spend big sorry to say,

as nothin cheap in the world of engine tuning!! bar the ebay specials :P lol

like i said in your thread save for a set of throttle bodies will siut your spec nicely.

andy

[farry1988]

i thought so i had the same chat with the guy from chipwizards and he kinda put me off throttle bodies so out of 2 remaining left i think i would choose a turbo over supercharging dont ask why i just would lol also as above two comment i highly doubt 170bhp is able from cams and a ported throttle body haha

[Legacy555]

Gentlemen,

I have the dyno sheets from Richard Longman Racing where the engine was originally built showing 165 bhp @ 7200 rpm. The engine has been on various other dyno's after rebuilds and it continues to give 165 bhp.

As for the 18% increase in flow over the standard throttle body, it can be achieved. The throttle body was modelled in a CFD program and reworked. The design utilized a tuned pipe between the ram induction intake and throttle body that sets up high nodes at 3600 and 7200 rpm. The 18% flow increase is very evident at these speeds. The proof is in the pudding (new power runs) and I'll have those in a few weeks for all to see.

[Legacy555]

Also, I've been using Clio 172 injectiors (283cc/min @ 3bar) at around 75% duty which gives better top end performance than the standard (226cc/min@ 3bar) injectors at around 95% duty. It's lumpy at idle, but I like that :)

[luthor1]

EDIT: ignore me, I'm not getting involved!!!

[farry1988]

haha i can see a he said she said arguement about to brake out, thanks for peoples input before it does :)

[AndySAXO]

Right let see the dyno print outs, as it all good to say it not arguing, just want to see if it possible,

so it the standard inlet yer? any has the head been ported and polished? or a bigger valve head? what kent cams did you use?

what spec are they?

did it have a bottom end re biuld? was it done with standard pistons?

even if it was biult to the highest of standard it still be hard to get 165bhp fair play if it did but that spec normal would see 150-155 depending on what dyno you go on,

andy

[gouldy87]

Gentlemen,

I have the dyno sheets from Richard Longman Racing where the engine was originally built showing 165 bhp @ 7200 rpm. The engine has been on various other dyno's after rebuilds and it continues to give 165 bhp.

As for the 18% increase in flow over the standard throttle body, it can be achieved. The throttle body was modelled in a CFD program and reworked. The design utilized a tuned pipe between the ram induction intake and throttle body that sets up high nodes at 3600 and 7200 rpm. The 18% flow increase is very evident at these speeds. The proof is in the pudding (new power runs) and I'll have those in a few weeks for all to see.

this sounds very intersting if true. im am not dismissing your points made i am doubting them abit from past experiance with the tu5j4 engines and modifications too it.

do you have more info on this and is there any proof etc.... (pics charts etc) tar

[Legacy555]

I get all the requested info together and come back to you all.

On a seperate note, 106 Cup cars put out around 145 bhp on standard engines with mild PTS Cams and remapped standard ecu on 95RON fuel - with nothing else done to them - and they use a catalytic converter!!.

Also should have mentioned that the 165 bhp engine will struggle to get 16 mpg average driving and about 12 mpg when driven hard.

[gouldy87]

i get 15 mpg not good at all

[Barry123]

hi-comp pistons.

[Ryan]

I take it the engine was run on the dyno from richard?

If so its the better way of measuring the power as its not running a box and then theoretical tranny losses

People also forget kent do custom grinds, and richard will have used those in a few engines.

[Barry123]

i get 15 mpg not good at all

you're shitting me dude?

[sliderz]

it gets tricky now trying to get more with out big money spent. on a standard tb you wont get much more past it tbh unless your ram it in. turbo set ups can be done for cheap or dear depends on your budget mine runs cituning manifold and down pipe the rest i got of ebay mf2 can be got if your looky for 215 then just get all rest of a turbo car most of mine is of a renault 5 turbo and inter cooler bigger the better stop pre detoniation set of low comp pistions and your laffin

[Legacy555]

I take it the engine was run on the dyno from richard?

If so its the better way of measuring the power as its not running a box and then theoretical tranny losses

People also forget kent do custom grinds, and richard will have used those in a few engines.

Yes, the engine was dyno'd at Longmans - have all the curves from the various power runs. The engine was dyno'd in the car as there is a "losses" (?) curve too on the power down which gives the gearbox losses.

TBH I don't know which Kent Cams they are, however power band is from around 3500 rpm, peaking at 7200 rpm

[Matt67]

Yes, the engine was dyno'd at Longmans - have all the curves from the various power runs. The engine was dyno'd in the car as there is a "losses" (?) curve too on the power down which gives the gearbox losses.

TBH I don't know which Kent Cams they are, however power band is from around 3500 rpm, peaking at 7200 rpm

Are you going to post the read outs?

[Legacy555]

Are you going to post the read outs?

Yeah, just need to dig them out - been about 6 years since the engine came out of longman's - in a folder somewhere.

[bullit]

I have a standard VTS engine with Kent cams, exhaust system, peugeot sport ram induction kit, remapped standard ECU, and Clio 172 injectors pushing out 165 bhp.

You can go a step further and add high compression pistons to get to about 175 bhp - but at that point the standard throttle starts to become restrictive and power increases stop.

The standard throttle body can be modified to give about 18% greater flow if your clever whilst retaining all the standard sensors - giving scope for more power once you've got to the point where it is restricting.

high c0mps for 10bhp?

[bullit]

I have a standard VTS engine with Kent cams, exhaust system, peugeot sport ram induction kit, remapped standard ECU, and Clio 172 injectors pushing out 165 bhp.

You can go a step further and add high compression pistons to get to about 175 bhp - but at that point the standard throttle starts to become restrictive and power increases stop.

The standard throttle body can be modified to give about 18% greater flow if your clever whilst retaining all the standard sensors - giving scope for more power once you've got to the point where it is restricting.

high c0mps for 10bhp?

als0 y0u may have cust0m grinds, but y0u have standard pist0ns 0r they cut 0uts?. what ab0ut f0ll0wers, springs etc

[AndySAXO]

Yes, the engine was dyno'd at Longmans - have all the curves from the various power runs. The engine was dyno'd in the car as there is a "losses" (?) curve too on the power down which gives the gearbox losses.

TBH I don't know which Kent Cams they are, however power band is from around 3500 rpm, peaking at 7200 rpm

sound like same spec as Ph3 or 708's, but sound alittle bit wilder!

dnt want to start an argument just want to see if it possible with that spec!

and your MPG is low aswell must be throwing in the fuel!!!

as i still get about 25-30 MPG in my cammed vts!

when i cain it i still get about 22-25 mpg must be the wideband working it magic! :P

and i also have a posrted and polished TB, so basiclly the same spec as you. :afro:

so basiclly you dont no what spec the car is? did you you get the information with the engine then or just brought it second hand and was told it was 165 bhp?

as someone must of told you what cams that was used.

andy

[Ryan]

I suspect theres quite a bit more difference between a dremmeld TB and one where longmans have modified it to be honest lol

[AndySAXO]

i not starting an argument just want to see if that spec made them figure just intested to know,

all well and good coming out with the figures as i could just say mine made it, but just alittle back up nice that all.

P.S how do you know mine wasnt professional done for max flow though the TB like his? lol

but it not tho :P i was just saying, you can say anything on here, like alot of bull that people come out with, but when people make these claims nice to see the figures and infomation to go with it, also the whole spec, just intested that all.

not saying he a liar just want to see it and how it was done i.e. the spec of the cams what other engine mod was done if any.


thanks

andy

[Legacy555]

Hi,

I'm certainly not looking for an argument or any anomosity either. But I do stand by my claims. I've found the sheet from Longman's, I'll get it scanned in tomorrow and up.
It's not a curve, just a list of wheel speeds, engine speeds, Kilowatts and Newton-metres. Showing 99kw @ 7500 rpm. That equates to about 132 bhp. The run-down I have a graph for, as this was done later on another dyno. Shows peak gearbox losses (I use a BE4 'box) of 31 bhp. Add the two and you get estimated flywheel power of 163 bhp - please forgive me casually rounding it up to 165 :)

This engine spec is as follows:
EFI Technologies Euro-1 Ecu
Marelli Pico 283 cc/min injectors
Peugeot sport ram induction pipe and cone filter
Kent Cams (fitted by Asquith Autosport to their spec)
Citroen Sport fuel rail
Citroen Sport Oil cooler
Citroen sport external breather kit
Lightened flywheel
Ashley manifold (same design as std only lighter) and full exhaust with no cat
Race spec bottom end bearings

This engine uses the following absolutely standard equipment
Pistons and rods
Crank
No head work is done
uses all standard valves
uses completely standard induction
uses standard sensors

[farry1988]

so to my original post if i want more without the big 3 all i need is a gas flowed tb and ill gain and extra 13bhp to my cars spec now?

edit - ive seen you have a lightened flywheels and a few other things, maybe your car is just more well maintained then mine hmm

[Ryan]

i not starting an argument just want to see if that spec made them figure just intested to know,

all well and good coming out with the figures as i could just say mine made it, but just alittle back up nice that all.

P.S how do you know mine wasnt professional done for max flow though the TB like his? lol

but it not tho :P i was just saying, you can say anything on here, like alot of bull that people come out with, but when people make these claims nice to see the figures and infomation to go with it, also the whole spec, just intested that all.

not saying he a liar just want to see it and how it was done i.e. the spec of the cams what other engine mod was done if any.


thanks

andy

As soon as someone mentions the name richard longmans you generally know they are not full of shit.

Longmans were one of the most respected tuners around before they shut this year.

The work they do is not cheap thats for sure.

Allways something to consider is the reputation of the comany being used before asking questions.

[Ryan]

so to my original post if i want more without the big 3 all i need is a gas flowed tb and ill gain and extra 13bhp to my cars spec now?

edit - ive seen you have a lightened flywheels and a few other things, maybe your car is just more well maintained then mine hmm

and the fact it has got custom grind cams, a standalone ecu aswell :D

[Legacy555]

so to my original post if i want more without the big 3 all i need is a gas flowed tb and ill gain and extra 13bhp to my cars spec now?

edit - ive seen you have a lightened flywheels and a few other things, maybe your car is just more well maintained then mine hmm

Ported and polished standard throttle body is good for about 1-2 bhp if you're lucky, but throttle response will improve. The throttle that I mentioned earlier is a heavily reworked item - that have been on a CNC machine and has several new pieces made - not just ported and polished

[Ryan]

Ported and polished standard throttle body is good for about 1-2 bhp if you're lucky, but throttle response will improve. The throttle that I mentioned earlier is a heavily reworked item - that have been on a CNC machine and has several new pieces made - not just ported and polished


Shhhhh we cant say the bodged TBs are not wicked on here without upsetting the people who ruin them :D

[farry1988]

already got cams so custom grind cams aint a options for me maybe a standalone is next in the pipeline will be usefull which ever direction i take,

[Legacy555]

and the fact it has got custom grind cams, a standalone ecu aswell :D

I'm assuming that eveyone knows that the standard single plug VTS ecu, the EFI Euro-1 and the Weber Alpha 1A are all the same ECU rebranded ??????

All you have to do is get an authorised EFI agent to take the password off the software and remap it... (not sure if they are supposed to do this....??)

[Ryan]

already got cams so custom grind cams aint a options for me maybe a standalone is next in the pipeline will be usefull which ever direction i take,

But my point is, different cam profiles will give different gains.

You cant look at two engines and say o you have a better TB and so thats where 15bhp comes from, if they are running different profiles.

[Ryan]

I'm assuming that eveyone knows that the standard single plug VTS ecu, the EFI Euro-1 and the Weber Alpha 1A are all the same ECU rebranded ??????

All you have to do is get an authorised EFI agent to take the password off the software and remap it... (not sure if they are supposed to do this....??)

I didnt know about the Euro, I thought all of the EFI stuff richard was using was a standalone, as it was all that was being run when PP were using longmans for their 160/180 throttle bodied set ups.

[Legacy555]

What exactly is meant by "Stand alone"? Does this just mean that the ECU runs off the crank sensor only and all other sensors are redundant.

Or does it mean that the engine loom is only connected to the car at the battery/fuse box?

[farry1988]

But my point is, different cam profiles will give different gains.

You cant look at two engines and say o you have a better TB and so thats where 15bhp comes from, if they are running different profiles.

im in now way saying you are wrong, i was just suggesting getting more power out of n/a engine without t/b s/c and turbos is going to be expensive so the solution would be to pick one of the three and they alll work better with stand alone ecu and if put that on the first to buy i can decide from there and give me time to learn alot more, there is some really technical talk going
on here half of which i dont fully understand lol cant thank you all enough for the advise!

[AndySAXO]

yer didnt say he was liaring just wanted to see if the spec he said could make them figures,

also the spec has change from just the basic spec he said first off, but fair eunf then it is 165 :y:

still like to see the graph tho :p

andy

[AndySAXO]

As soon as someone mentions the name richard longmans you generally know they are not full of shit.

Longmans were one of the most respected tuners around before they shut this year.

The work they do is not cheap thats for sure.

Allways something to consider is the reputation of the comany being used before asking questions.


also never said he was full of shit, just wanted to see the graph the back up claims, people can just say names though as it a forum poeple can siad alot of bullshit just nice to see backup to the claims that all

thanks

andy

[gouldy87]

Hi,

I'm certainly not looking for an argument or any anomosity either. But I do stand by my claims. I've found the sheet from Longman's, I'll get it scanned in tomorrow and up.
It's not a curve, just a list of wheel speeds, engine speeds, Kilowatts and Newton-metres. Showing 99kw @ 7500 rpm. That equates to about 132 bhp. The run-down I have a graph for, as this was done later on another dyno. Shows peak gearbox losses (I use a BE4 'box) of 31 bhp. Add the two and you get estimated flywheel power of 163 bhp - please forgive me casually rounding it up to 165 :)

This engine spec is as follows:
EFI Technologies Euro-1 Ecu
Marelli Pico 283 cc/min injectors
Peugeot sport ram induction pipe and cone filter
Kent Cams (fitted by Asquith Autosport to their spec)
Citroen Sport fuel rail
Citroen Sport Oil cooler
Citroen sport external breather kit
Lightened flywheel
Ashley manifold (same design as std only lighter) and full exhaust with no cat
Race spec bottom end bearings

This engine uses the following absolutely standard equipment
Pistons and rods
Crank
No head work is done
uses all standard valves
uses completely standard induction
uses standard sensors

thats an intersting one tbh.

mine came out at 157@ fly 137.1@ wheels.

how come you have such a large transmission loss?

was the box in bad condition or something?

[Legacy555]

thats an intersting one tbh.

mine came out at 157@ fly 137.1@ wheels.

how come you have such a large transmission loss?

was the box in bad condition or something?

Hi,
The 'box was only rebuilt before being on the dyno. Are you using a BE4 box also? If not, is it possible that the BE4 has a higher rolling resistance to the standard gearbox? Very interesting to see that I'm giving away 10 bhp in gearbox losses - if I can solve that problem it could be the cheapest 10 horsepower gain ever :)

[AndySAXO]

so your not using the MA gear box? but an BE4 one?

yer might be that fact, also did you dig them graphs out?

andy

[Legacy555]

so your not using the MA gear box? but an BE4 one?

yer might be that fact, also did you dig them graphs out?

andy

I'll defo have them on Monday, two days on the trot left them at home and scanner is in work :(

[AndySAXO]

yer no worrrys just want to see :)

andy

[gouldy87]

Hi,
The 'box was only rebuilt before being on the dyno. Are you using a BE4 box also? If not, is it possible that the BE4 has a higher rolling resistance to the standard gearbox? Very interesting to see that I'm giving away 10 bhp in gearbox losses - if I can solve that problem it could be the cheapest 10 horsepower gain ever :)

no mate ive a reconned vts box on mine as its my daily and i do alot of motorway driving. other wise i wuld of gone for a rally box.

what do you think could be causing the 10bhp loss?

also how would the different box alter the bhp figure?

is the final drive not the same?

[Legacy555]

At last managed to scan in power curve, pic of car (with broken engine mount, thus wratchet strap holding all in place), S1600 interior, and actual wiring diagram (why is the haynes manual wrong???)

http://i687.photobucket.com/albums/vv235/mad4tar/scan_07132009_001.jpg
http://i687.photobucket.com/albums/vv235/mad4tar/DSC_0450.jpg
http://i687.photobucket.com/albums/vv235/mad4tar/saxovts.jpg
http://i687.photobucket.com/albums/vv235/mad4tar/saxo_03.jpg

Power curve isn't the longman's one as he only gives you a list of numbers. This curve was produced after a bottom end rebuild last year.

[Legacy555]

Should have mentioned that the interior shot is what I modelled mine off, but not my actual one

[Legacy555]

Also, if you look at the curves the line down the bottom is the gearbox losses - shows about 25kw @ 7500 rpm

[AndySAXO]

oo well this car is just a total track car yer?

andy

[Legacy555]

oo well this car is just a total track car yer?

andy

No, it's a group A tarmac rally car

[Ryan]

regarding the power loss.

Different rolling roads will read different losses depending on how they are calibrated, its not that the box is rogered in most cases.

[Legacy555]

regarding the power loss.

Different rolling roads will read different losses depending on how they are calibrated, its not that the box is rogered in most cases.

Looking at some of the laymans information on the 306 Gti-6 forum, 25 - 35 bhp seems to be fairly normal for the BE3 box. BE4 is 90% the same.

[AndySAXO]

is it tax and tested for road use then aswell?

look very nice tho :y:

Andy

[Legacy555]

is it tax and tested for road use then aswell?

look very nice tho :y:

Andy

Unfortunately, due to high emissions, no handbrake cables, noise levels and the fact that I'm not a UK resisdent, the car is not taxed or tested.

I've also facelifted the car - was originally Mk1 front